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mehoe123

Arthur Morgan dumbest R* protagonist?

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Mister Pink

I'm glad that the general consensus is that Arthur is a smart, relatively intelligent man with a poor education. 

 

On a side note, speaking of Arthur's qualities, I like that he isn't pretentious. He knows he isn't intellectual and has that level of self-awareness. But his ability to reflect on interesting things he sees and writes about distinguishes him from being a typical knucklehead criminal. There's also the fact that he's been raised by Josea and Dutch in reality, probably first in line for the throne or at least acting boss if Dutch ever went down as Josea is seems like his pushing on. I'm speculating on my knowledge of  RDR and RDR2 (up to chapter 3). 

 

 

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neo92boi
On 11/11/2018 at 12:03 AM, Jerking For Soup said:

How is Jack successful or hardened?

 

First off, he's hardly done anything comparable to any other protagonist. The only big plotline event he initiated was killing Ross. We're talking protags who have gotten away with huge heists, ran gangs, ended Mafias, jumped onto a jet, killed all the guys on there and parachuted off unscathed. Are we really comparing killing an old retired cop to anything anyone else has done?

 

Not to mention that by killing Ross, he himself is falling victim to a cycle of revenge, something John or Arthur doesn't want him to pursue.

 

Jack isn't even all that hardened. Yeah he had his Dad killed and his mother passed away, but let's be honest, he hasn't ever been left for dead like John has, he hasn't had years of experience in the game like Michael has and he hasn't got the keen wit Franklin has, he isn't even as hardboiled as LAPD Detectives. 

 

We know close to nothing about Jack's future either. We don't know if he goes on to invent hot dog jesus dildo cushions ffs. All we know is that he kills Ross.

 

...Let me start off by saying this. We know close to nothing about the exact origins of any Rockstar Games protagonist. We may know history but we don’t know they’re experience through that history. We don’t know how Tommy Vercetti was raised and how he turned into the Harwood Butcher and mark man for Sonny. We don’t know what made Carl actually leave LS for LC and how he was assisting the Leone’s, and his fall from grace with the Grove Street families or how him and his siblings were raised. Why Jimmys mom was a whore and a underachieving mother and where his real father went...why Niko was the only survivor to not be hunted..but one mans life we DO know is Jack Marston’s.  We’ve seen him as a toddler , a young boy, a hardened teen, and a grown ass man. We saw him experience life. His first time fishing with his Uncle Arthur, his upbringing around the incident in Blackwater, all the way to seeing his own Father go down in a hail of bullets. Think of how impactful a scene it you’ll be if we played as Jack Marston again in RDR3 and somewhere in it someone goes

“ Here Jack take this.....this was Arthur’s...he always wanted you to have this and take care of it...”

 

..”This...this is from Uncle Arthur....😢....thank you...” (It’s his Gambler Hat and Neckerchief)  Rockstar is going Pixar level with the feels. 

 

Which is is a shame because they could go as authentic and heart wrenching with all of their characters in this way. Jack is smart, heavily skilled, and numb. Honestly as far as upbrings go only him, Niko, and Carl can compare.  Trevor is just bat sh*t, Franklin is a knucklehead, Michael has always lived well just been a scummy bastard, Toni and Tommy were basically conciglietes , Vic was a army man, Huang is a spoiled brat, and Claude is just Michael Myers lmao. 

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Madhorse

I just don't see how Arthur could be called dumb in any way.

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unfairlane
On 11/8/2018 at 11:25 PM, jje1000 said:

Even to this day, people still confuse intelligence with education... there's plenty of dumb 'educated' people around- Professor MacDougal is proof enough of that.

 

Arthur isn't an absolute genius, but he is perceptive and smarter than many around him, and at times has better intuition than even Dutch. What ties Arthur back is his loyalty/subordinance to Dutch, which he only truly acts against at the end of the game.

 

 

  .And most people confuse intelligence with wisdom.. Intelligence is just the processors capacity, it is nothing without good software. Patience and honesty can beat intelligence every day

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PennePnutt

"Now Dutch I really must protest!"

 

"I have a PLAN."

 

"...ok"

 

SO. DUMB. IT. HURTS to play as him. 

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Satanta

Csnnot compare Arthur to someone from any GTA series or to someone from our time period who is alive now in Meatworld and get a correct assesment for "Intelligence"..

 

Arthur did not likely know sign language but Coco the Chimp did.

 

There are people now who understand how to use a computer-how to build them, operate them and get them online or run specific software on it-Arthur could never do such but, take that computer person, drop them in 1899 and tell them to break a horse and go hunt, skin, clean and cut up an animal for food then have them track down some edible wild plants in the wilderness and keep themselves alive.   Good luck with that.

 

Bet Arthur would not eat Tide Pods either.

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McAgent

Dumbest protagonist? Far from it, I would argue he's one of the most intelligent.

Of course, it's hard to compare because he came from a time where people were not very educated, and he spent his life as a criminal on the run, but his journal, interactions with strange characters, and foresight already puts him above the majority of GTA protagonists in my opinion. 

As someone else stated above however, his blind loyalty to Dutch keeps him behind for most of the story, which may give him a perception of being dumb, though it's more a case of extreme loyalty than stupidity.

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Implicitly

Arthur isn't dumb at all, it's a fake act because he's stuck in an outlaw lifestyle and too loyal to the person who saved him and raised him. He's very intelligent, and very talented which is shown with his art and appreciation for things.

 

He's one of the smarter ones. Bill isn't a protangist but that's the real moron. 

 

Edited by Implicitly
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burger_mike

Dumb people dont tend to have a journal loaded with masterpiece artworks and insights on everything. 

 

OP you don’t explain why you think he’s dumb.

Edited by Equatecurl
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DrKrankenstein
33 minutes ago, Equatecurl said:

Dumb people dont tend to have a journal loaded with masterpiece artworks and insights on everything. 

 

OP you don’t explain why you think he’s dumb.

mabe it's not the protagonist but the player. ;)

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Shade04rek

He may be one the smartest protags given the time period. Would any other protag in their current state know how to survive in the wild? cauterize their wound with gunpowder? mix poisons and tonics? or simply ride a horse? The closest bet is probably Niko with his upbringing and military experience, but Arthur is far from dumb, he adapt's and learns fairly well, like when he operated the remote submarine. He is very perceptive seen by how he sketches, reads situations, and he is generally "street" smart. The dumbest is probably somene like franklin who also has no education and can't even speak properly in the 21st century.

Edited by Shade04rek
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mehoe123

I started this topic when i first got the game, i've done two playthroughs now. I find he is actually extremely smart, i think it was his mannerisms and the way he spoke that threw me off about his intelligence. My bad on making a pre mature topic before I really played more.

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Obsi
On 1/8/2019 at 10:18 AM, McAgent said:

As someone else stated above however, his blind loyalty to Dutch keeps him behind for most of the story, which may give him a perception of being dumb, though it's more a case of extreme loyalty than stupidity.

I'm not sure it's even just loyalty....

 

I guess a lot of the character personality is subjective - but to me I don't think it was blind/extreme loyalty.  I really felt Arthur was stuck and unable to get out.

 

Imagine you're in a situation where you've been with the gang almost your entire life and you're watching as the man you admired (who raised you) is unraveling before your eyes and the fallout is bringing everyone in harms way.  You care about some of the people around you and want to help protect them. You don't like the direction the gang is going.  You're also a gang of killers to whom loyalty is of utmost importance.

Spoiler

Look at how they dealt with Molly for example...

  Do you just up and leave?   Can you just up and leave???  (without gang retribution) 

 

Sometimes it's safer/easier to along with something you disagree with, rather than to try and go against the group.  I feel that long before the end, Arthur wasn't driven by loyalty to Dutch, or that he was too stupid to see what was happening - I feel he was stuck in a hopeless situation he didn't like but didn't know how to get away from. 

 

As players we also have the ability to know mostly how the story ends, from what happens in RDR1....  Arthur didn't have that knowledge.  So from his point of view stuck in the middle of it all - I imagine he was trying to give Dutch some benefit of the doubt and second chances to get it right, couldn't really get out anyway even if he wanted to, and was desperately hoping that their luck would change... that it would work out in the end... 

Spoiler

Sipping cocktails on the beach in Tahiti

 

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UKPortista

I would liked to have seen Arthur say 'f*ck this, I'm off mate' and ride north to Charlotte's. Guy deserved a few moments of happiness...heck, he might have even got his leg over.

Edited by UKPortista

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0223998743

If he was truly smart and intelligent he would have rode off very far and left everyone, the only person that he could have maybe ask to come with him would be Sadie and Charles.

Edited by anthony

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Jimbatron
On 1/10/2019 at 10:09 AM, anthony said:

If he was truly smart and intelligent he would have rode off very far and left everyone, the only person that he could have maybe ask to come with him would be Sadie and Charles.

Whether you think it’s a dumb choice entirely depends on your perspective.

 

Some may think it’s foolish to make big sacrifices for the benefit of others - but if it’s done with full knowledge of what the outcome is, I don’t think that has anything to do with intelligence. It’s got everything to do with preferences.

 

Arthur is probably smart enough to realise that the only way to protect everyone he cares about is from the inside. About half the gang would come under the category of decent people he’s devoted to saving. That’s not just one or two people riding off quietly one night, that would require a full on mutiny that would come with its own dangers.

 

He makes it clear he knows he may not be able to sway Dutch for the better - so whilst his efforts may appear to be a fools errand, it’s clear by Chapter 6 he has very little left to lose.

 

For me he’s intelligent if uneducated. He’s certainly a good judge of character - clocks Micah for what he is from the get go, starts to recognise Dutch is going off the rails early on even though he’s got a longer history of loyalty than the others.

 

He’s also good a recognising the consequence of his actions - realising for instance that revenge is a fools errand. When leading a job he is also able to plan ahead effectively and rationalise why certain things need to be done.

 

Finally his journal reveals him to be both thoughtful and analytical - usually with a solid assessment of any given situation.

 

The biggest lapse in judgement for me was “A short walk in a pretty town”. I remember as the player looking from left to right and thinking “this is not good” and you think Arthur would have twigged before the first shot was fired that something was up. Then again, he had Micah in his ear and no mood music to drop a hint. A lot of the other situations he found himself in though he could have done little about. The inevitable march of civilisation meant the gang were doomed whatever they did.

 

So generally I found him intelligent, but R* generally don’t do protagonists with low IQ. When they do dumb things it’s generally because of inability to control their emotions rather than their brain power being at fault.

 

 

 

 

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t-p-d-a
On 11/9/2018 at 4:33 AM, neo92boi said:

IMO opinion my list from retard to genius.

 

James Earl Cash (Manhunt 1)

Claude Speed (GTA 1 and 3)

Johnny Klebitz (GTA IV EFLC : LAD)  

Huang Lee (GTA CTW) 

“Player” (Midnight Club LA) 

Mike (GTA Advance)

Arthur Morgan (RDR 2)

Carl Johnson (GTA SA)

John Marston (RDR)

Niko Bellic (GTA IV) 

Red Harlow (RD:R)

Jack Marston (RDR)

Toni Cipriani (GTA LCS) 

The Warriors (The Warriors)

Trevor Philips (GTA V)

Det. Max Payne (MP 1,2,3)

Franklin Clinton (GTA V )

Luis Lopez (GTA IV EFLC : TBOGT)

Daniel Lamb (Manhunt 2) 

Victor Vance (GTA VCS)

Jimmy Hopkins (Bully) 

Michael DeSanta (GTA V)

Det. Cole Phillips (LA Noire)

Tommy Vercetti (GTA VC) 

 

Now a level of bad ass list is completely different because honestly Arthur is literally THE most legendarily badass protagonist R* has made to date, Trevor and Tommy are close seconds. 

 

And  as far as a level of Success list goes, CJ tops that with Tommy and Jimmy as very close seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael DeSanta on third place? Michael isn't genius, no way!.. He deserved his dead. Did you even play the story?

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ElVeterano95

Look at Charles the example, there is a random camp event where Uncle says he is dumb because he is so silent. So if somebody is silent it means he is dumb ? You ever heard the word : Wisdom ? Arthur is not dumb just things turn badder after every chapter for him, and he tries to think clever even at the end,when nobody cares,when everybody thinks just for themselves and run...at that point Arthur still tried to help every single human being.

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3Prcntr

No.

Michael was an idiot. A great planner, unlike dutch, but most of that was the "handicapable" L-dawg's doing too.

Personally, I like Arthur way more than anyone else in RDR2, and TONS more than marston. I like marstons son at the end of RDR1, but outside of RDR, Trevor will always be my favorite. Just the right amount of stupid and crazy to make him a genius. Franklin, well, pretty sure his ancestor was in GTA once before.

Edited by 3Prcntr

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Cloutboy_kg_070

The majority of people saying that Arthur is smart and highly intelligent should really kill themselves. This is the same Arthur that confused the German language with Spanish but understood a little bit of that broken down hillbilly conversation on the mission with Javier. This is the same Arthur who didn’t even know he had Tuberculosis until it nearly dropped him dead let alone actually know what it is. This is the same Arthur who allowed a group of little thugs rob him of his possessions and he chased after them to an alley where they held him at gun point. He’s short tempered, has no patience and he’s always falling for traps. Pretty smart I’d say. 

 

  ((For people saying CJ is dumb))

 

Carl Johnson left his gang to become a business man. Arthur is STILL IN A GANG. f*cking idiots. CJ abandoned the gang because he knew there was a better life out there. You want to know who did the samething!? John f*cking Marston that’s who. Meanwhile, Arthur remained in the gang because he’s gullible and easily manipulated. 

 

Hence, CJ is way smarter. 

 

CJ has a pilot license!

 

END OF STORY 

Edited by Cloutboy_kg_070
Retards

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Cloutboy_kg_070
On 1/12/2019 at 9:16 AM, t-p-d-a said:

Michael DeSanta on third place? Michael isn't genius, no way!.. He deserved his dead. Did you even play the story?

Dude, I fully agree with this list! Great job. 

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~INDIO~
4 hours ago, Cloutboy_kg_070 said:

The majority of people saying that Arthur is smart and highly intelligent should really kill themselves. This is the same Arthur that confused the German language with Spanish but understood a little bit of that broken down hillbilly conversation on the mission with Javier. This is the same Arthur who didn’t even know he had Tuberculosis until it nearly dropped him dead let alone actually know what it is. This is the same Arthur who allowed a group of little thugs rob him of his possessions and he chased after them to an alley where they held him at gun point. He’s short tempered, has no patience and he’s always falling for traps. Pretty smart I’d say. 

 

  ((For people saying CJ is dumb))

 

Carl Johnson left his gang to become a business man. Arthur is STILL IN A GANG. f*cking idiots. CJ abandoned the gang because he knew there was a better life out there. You want to know who did the samething!? John f*cking Marston that’s who. Meanwhile, Arthur remained in the gang because he’s gullible and easily manipulated. 

 

Hence, CJ is way smarter. 

 

CJ has a pilot license!

 

END OF STORY 

Calm down hun

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Typhus

Arthur's not smart, but he's wise. There's a difference. Given the setting, he's kind of like the idyllic Western man, the Clint Eastwood or John Wayne type, not book-smart, but in tune with the world, with a solid moral grounding and tons of charisma.

Guy's also deeply emotionally intelligent. Dutch lashes out like a child when things don't go his way, Micah acts like a 19th Century Jake Paul, and until the end of the game John is an irresponsible deadbeat. Arthur picks up the slack, he helps people in need, he gives Jack attention and affection, and he spots things going wrong from a mile off because he's in tune with how people act so notices when their behaviour starts going awry.

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Guest Guest176525326

All Arthur Morgan had to do to survive was to take Dutch’s d*** out of his mouth!


But in all seriousness, I like Mr. Morgan, he was well written, he wasn’t the smartest nor the dumbest, he wasn’t the baddest nor the softest. I would even say he was Jack of all trades, but master of none. He is definitely one of the best Rockstar characters of all time, but just not quite up there with the legends like: Niko Bellic, Trevor Philips and John Martson. 

Edited by Guest176525326

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volta2001

I don’t get how anyone can say Arthur is stupid. He can fully dress out a grizzly in like 20 seconds 

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