Ryder ignored after betrayal

[lil weasel]

We know it is Only A Game, just rebutting some of the "Too Real" thinking.

See my other posts.

[Ballas King]

Ryder had the potential to be either one of the loyalest member (while Smoke wont fight Ballas, Ryder would, also before the events he attacked his teacher just for wearing Ballas color lol !) as well as one of the greatest sell out foe (he persistently belittled CJ and given his prior loyalty his betrayal could have been just as big as a shock as Smoke's if utilized). Sadly he barely has any dialogues after House Party and has only two appearances after the betrayal in Photo Opportunity  and Pier 69  (many say his voice character left, I dont know much behind the scene stuffs. TBH Ryder had the potential to be one of the most prominent character in the series (both as a GSF for life hero and a sell out villain) but ended up being one of the most underutilized and wasted character in the whole series.

[Official General]

2 hours ago, wfank said:

Ryder had the potential to be either one of the loyalest member (while Smoke wont fight Ballas, Ryder would, also before the events he attacked his teacher just for wearing Ballas color lol !) as well as one of the greatest sell out foe (he persistently belittled CJ and given his prior loyalty his betrayal could have been just as big as a shock as Smoke's if utilized). Sadly he barely has any dialogues after House Party and has only two appearances after the betrayal in Photo Opportunity  and Pier 69  (many say his voice character left, I dont know much behind the scene stuffs. TBH Ryder had the potential to be one of the most prominent character in the series (both as a GSF for life hero and a sell out villain) but ended up being one of the most underutilized and wasted character in the whole series.

You need to remember the game's narrative has a set structure and period of events that have to fit in with the length of the storyline. Not every character is gonna be able to have a big piece of the limelight, no matter how much we personally like them, you have look at things realistically. 

[Ballas King]

16 hours ago, Official General said:

You need to remember the game's narrative has a set structure and period of events that have to fit in with the length of the storyline. Not every character is gonna be able to have a big piece of the limelight, no matter how much we personally like them, you have look at things realistically. 

Yes, but at the same time we can distinguish between those that have a big plan behind them and those that do not. We can never compare a minor character like Big Poppa to a major character like Big Smoke. Ryder was in the first part of LS one of the biggest character, the four main GSF besides Seet, CJ and Smoke. From that he went down to being a random character with no new dialogues that was killed off like a random villain (CJ did regret it and mention him later but it was so abrupt). I believe his voice character leaving or whatever had a role in this or maybe they were just too many new characters to focus on after CJ was sent on exile. Regardless Ryder's character was ultimately cut down and wasted.

[muvdafucupouttahere]

21 hours ago, Official General said:

You need to remember the game's narrative has a set structure and period of events that have to fit in with the length of the storyline. Not every character is gonna be able to have a big piece of the limelight, no matter how much we personally like them, you have look at things realistically. 

No one's saying Ryder needs a huge spotlight on his own. We're just saying that his character could've been more expanded in the story since he's one of the major characters of the plot and at the very least not have his actions contrived. He had so much potential and it all went to waste in the end.

[Official General]

7 hours ago, wfank said:

Yes, but at the same time we can distinguish between those that have a big plan behind them and those that do not. We can never compare a minor character like Big Poppa to a major character like Big Smoke. Ryder was in the first part of LS one of the biggest character, the four main GSF besides Seet, CJ and Smoke. From that he went down to being a random character with no new dialogues that was killed off like a random villain (CJ did regret it and mention him later but it was so abrupt). I believe his voice character leaving or whatever had a role in this or maybe they were just too many new characters to focus on after CJ was sent on exile. Regardless Ryder's character was ultimately cut down and wasted.

 

2 hours ago, muvdafucupouttahere said:

No one's saying Ryder needs a huge spotlight on his own. We're just saying that his character could've been more expanded in the story since he's one of the major characters of the plot and at the very least not have his actions contrived. He had so much potential and it all went to waste in the end.

I still disagree with the both you. 

 

It seems to me that the both of you did not follow the storyline and narrative in good detail, because you both failed to notice that Ryder was depicted as being the most dim-witted out of the main characters within CJ's Grove Street Families circle, which limited his potential for character expansion. Based on this, it became clear to see that Ryder was never going to advance as a character for the duration of the game's storyline. He had no leadership skills, he was easily influenced and corrupted by others (Big Smoke namely), he was not very smart in his logic and generally way of thinking, and importantly, he was heavily into drug use - which even further hindered his ability to establish himself as one of the more high-ranking members of the gang's inner circle. 

 

Simply put, Ryder was made the way he because it was suited to the story's structure and narrative, I personally would not have had it any other way. Every character had potential for expansion, but if you did that the story would never end and it would a structural mess. 

[Ballas King]

14 minutes ago, Official General said:

 

I still disagree with the both you. 

 

It seems to me that the both of you did not follow the storyline and narrative in good detail, because you both failed to notice that Ryder was depicted as being the most dim-witted out of the main characters within CJ's Grove Street Families circle, which limited his potential for character expansion. Based on this, it became clear to see that Ryder was never going to advance as a character for the duration of the game's storyline. He had no leadership skills, he was easily influenced and corrupted by others (Big Smoke namely), he was not very smart in his logic and generally way of thinking, and importantly, he was heavily into drug use - which even further hindered his ability to establish himself as one of the more high-ranking members of the gang's inner circle. 

 

Simply put, Ryder was made the way he because it was suited to the story's structure and narrative, I personally would not have had it any other way. Every character had potential for expansion, but if you did that the story would never end and it would a structural mess. 

Nope Ryder was never shown dim witted, all you are doing is bringing your personal thoughts on the matter. Its you who failed to see the story and narrative. Ryder was a very prominent character who went quiet all of a sudden and killed of like he was just another dude like those workers in  Deconstruction. if you follow the early part of the story, you know how Important Ryder was . Likewise think what you want, but to us Ryder was a vital character who was thrown down the drain.

[Official General]

3 minutes ago, wfank said:

Nope Ryder was never shown dim witted, all you are doing is bringing your personal thoughts on the matter. Its you who failed to see the story and narrative. Ryder was a very prominent character who went quiet all of a sudden and killed of like he was just another dude like those workers in  Deconstruction. if you follow the early part of the story, you know how Important Ryder was . Likewise think what you want, but to us Ryder was a vital character who was thrown down the drain.

LOL personal ? Nawww man don't care about it in that way, I'm only stating what was clearly shown. Anyway I don't agree, and Rockstar clearly did not agree with you either, which is highly significant since they created the game and made it that way, so - and that really is all that matters. Peace out 

[Ballas King]

11 minutes ago, Official General said:

LOL personal ? Nawww man don't care about it in that way, I'm only stating what was clearly shown. Anyway I don't agree, and Rockstar clearly did not agree with you either, which is highly significant since they created the game and made it that way, so - and that really is all that matters. Peace out 

Nope you clearly dint follow the storyline, there is a huge difference between the important pre Green Saber Ryder (he isnt even mentioned there btw) and the post Ryder who was shown as a forgotten character. And Rockstar never confirmed the "non sense: you claim at all , so the jokes on you. Peace out indeed..

Edited April 23, 2019 by wfank

[Official General]

Just now, wfank said:

Nope you clearly dint follow the storyline, there is a huge difference between the important pre Green Saber Ryder (he isnt even mentioned there btw) and the post Ryder who was shown as a forgotten character. And Rockstar never confirmed the "non sense: you claim at all , so the jokes on you. Peace out indeed.

Uh yeah, sure whatever. 

[muvdafucupouttahere]

1 hour ago, Official General said:

 

I still disagree with the both you. 

 

It seems to me that the both of you did not follow the storyline and narrative in good detail, because you both failed to notice that Ryder was depicted as being the most dim-witted out of the main characters within CJ's Grove Street Families circle, which limited his potential for character expansion. Based on this, it became clear to see that Ryder was never going to advance as a character for the duration of the game's storyline. He had no leadership skills, he was easily influenced and corrupted by others (Big Smoke namely), he was not very smart in his logic and generally way of thinking, and importantly, he was heavily into drug use - which even further hindered his ability to establish himself as one of the more high-ranking members of the gang's inner circle. 

 

Simply put, Ryder was made the way he because it was suited to the story's structure and narrative, I personally would not have had it any other way. Every character had potential for expansion, but if you did that the story would never end and it would a structural mess. 

What does being the most dim-witted of the gang even prove? And so what if he wasn't a leader? Big Smoke himself doesn't even have any leadership experience. He was just another soldier. Ryder was the loose cannon of the gang and also a soldier, not to mention already a senior member of the GSF. Plus his lack of logic and general way of thinking is most likely due to the drug he was using. His betrayal just flat-out felt improvised, as no profound thought was put into it and no one else who was a member of the Grove Street gang even acknowledges his absent, not even Sweet. When Ryder was killed off, it was as if we were killing a random gang member that never played an important role to fit the plot, which is why we're saying he was another character with wasted potential. And I'm sorry, but if you really believe Ryder doesn't deserve any real development or actual potential just for not being a leader or "dim-witted", then you may as well just say he shouldn't have even been made a character in the game to begin with since there's no point in having a character you're just gonna randomly kill off in a contrived manner.

Edited April 24, 2019 by muvdafucupouttahere

[Official General]

7 minutes ago, muvdafucupouttahere said:

What does being the most dim-witted of the gang even prove? And so what if he wasn't a leader? Big Smoke himself doesn't even have any leadership experience. He was just another soldier. Ryder was the loose cannon of the gang and also a soldier, not to mention already a senior member of the GSF. Plus his lack of logic and general way of thinking is most likely due to the drug he was using. His betrayal just flat-out felt improvised, as no profound thought was put into it and no one else who was a member of the Grove Street gang even acknowledges his absent, not even Sweet. When Ryder was killed off, it was as if we were killing a random gang member that never played an important role to fit the plot, which is why we're saying he was another character with wasted potential. And I'm sorry, but if you really believe Ryder doesn't deserve any real development or actual potential just for not being a leader or "dim-witted", then you may as well just say he shouldn't have even been made a character in the game to begin with since there's no point in having a character you're just gonna randomly kill off in a contrived manner.

San Andreas was made 15 YEARS AGO, back in 2004. The storylines for most games back the was of a very standard, basic level of writing, they were nothing like the standards that became the norm of the HD-era of gaming, which are currently in.

 

Seriously bro, give the game a break. 

[muvdafucupouttahere]

6 minutes ago, Official General said:

San Andreas was made 15 YEARS AGO, back in 2004. The storylines for most games back the was of a very standard, basic level of writing, they were nothing like the standards that became the norm of the HD-era of gaming, which are currently in.

 

Seriously bro, give the game a break. 

This is the GTA Forum, pal. Being 15 years old doesn't stop anyone for making these topics, now does it? People nowadays still talk about the old Tony Hawk games even though it's been over a decade since those came out. You certainly weren't complaining about how long ago it's been since the game's released when you replied to my other comment.

Edited April 24, 2019 by muvdafucupouttahere

[Ballas King]

1 hour ago, Official General said:

San Andreas was made 15 YEARS AGO, back in 2004. The storylines for most games back the was of a very standard, basic level of writing, they were nothing like the standards that became the norm of the HD-era of gaming, which are currently in.

 

Seriously bro, give the game a break. 

That is your dimwitteds opinion,m San Andreas has a bigger and more deep story than your baby game GTA 5 which is all about the heist. I might have joined this forum last year but Ive been playing GTA since GTA 2 in 1999 and a gamer since the 90s arcade days and have played SA since 2006. I have seen 90s game better with bigger and deeper story than GTA 5. regardless do not go off topic on this post. If you dont like something, then no one is forcing you to like it, but do not tell others what to do, what game they should "leave it" or not.

Edited April 24, 2019 by wfank

[Ballas King]

Addition: On an edit note (as my new post will be merged, I do appreciate your opinions Official General, as Rockstar gave no official reason behind Ryder's abrupt throw away, everything everyone can say (including you and I) are just speculations. We are entitled to believe what we want, you can believe what you want and I can believe what I want, cause after all these years there is no way knowing what actually happened. Regardless the main thing is we are just fellow gamers and we can continue to enjoy the game as long as we like, cheers  . 

[watersgta3]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 3:54 PM, Official General said:

 

I still disagree with the both you. 

 

It seems to me that the both of you did not follow the storyline and narrative in good detail, because you both failed to notice that Ryder was depicted as being the most dim-witted out of the main characters within CJ's Grove Street Families circle, which limited his potential for character expansion. Based on this, it became clear to see that Ryder was never going to advance as a character for the duration of the game's storyline. He had no leadership skills, he was easily influenced and corrupted by others (Big Smoke namely), he was not very smart in his logic and generally way of thinking, and importantly, he was heavily into drug use - which even further hindered his ability to establish himself as one of the more high-ranking members of the gang's inner circle. 

 

Simply put, Ryder was made the way he because it was suited to the story's structure and narrative, I personally would not have had it any other way. Every character had potential for expansion, but if you did that the story would never end and it would a structural mess. 

Seriously, dude, was it too much for you to just simply say he shouldn't have been made a character in the game to begin with? I mean I would much rather not have him included in the game at all than to be inexplicably written as a minor character after his spontaneous betrayal and ignored after being haphazardly killed off.

[lil weasel]

A video game is a "Book" of sorts with interactive story  responses (game play).

If Ryder was not included it would only be a name of a different Rose, the stink would be the same.

Every story needs characters to drive it along. And when the character has finished its job it is dropped, or removed.

 

Would "Mister Roberts" have been as entertaining without Ensign Pulver. Maybe, but I can live with them.

[Official General]

15 hours ago, watersgta3 said:

1. Seriously, dude, was it too much for you to just simply say he shouldn't have been made a character in the game to begin with?

 

2. I mean I would much rather not have him included in the game at all than to be inexplicably written as a minor character after his spontaneous betrayal and ignored after being haphazardly killed off.

1. No. Simply because what you have suggested here is not how I see it, and I most certainly disagree with it too. So therefore I cannot say it. 

 

2. Nah not me, no way. Why would I want Ryder removed from the game and have one less memorable and funny character in the story ? I am more than happy with Ryder's place in the story. I very much understand that many SA fans really liked him and wanted to see more of him or where no satisfied with manner of his exit, honestly I get it. But for me, the way Ryder was written out of the story was of no major significance to me and it was not detrimental to my experience of playing through the story. To me, Ryder is who he is, his many personality flaws ensured that he was going to have an early exit, I saw it that way and I'm perfectly fine with it. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Official General

[watersgta3]

16 hours ago, Official General said:

1. No. Simply because what you have suggested here is not how I see it, and I most certainly disagree with it too. So therefore I cannot say it. 

 

2. Nah not me, no way. Why would I want Ryder removed from the game and have one less memorable and funny character in the story ? I am more than happy with Ryder's place in the story. I very much understand that many SA fans really liked him and wanted to see more of him or where no satisfied with manner of his exit, honestly I get it. But for me, the way Ryder was written out of the story was of no major significance to me and it was not detrimental to my experience of playing through the story. To me, Ryder is who he is, his many personality flaws ensured that he was going to have an early exit, I saw it that way and I'm perfectly fine with it. 

I, for one, felt that if he was gonna be killed off, it should be in a way in which the members of the GSF acknowledges it and not treat him as if he's a minor character no different from Little Weasel. R* had three choices, they could've either

 

a) Have Ryder stay loyal to the gang and help CJ and his friends (hell I actually wrote a story on fanfiction here on how to handle this: (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12231702/1/Grand-Theft-Auto-San-Andreas-Re-write)

 

b) Kill him off at the Green Sabre mission as a loyal member since it would be much more profound

 

                                            or..........

 

c) Don't include him in the game at all since they don't know what they would do for him by the storyline's second half.

 

Either of those choices would've made up for how desultory his betrayal and death both were.

[Mr Zedd]

On 11/7/2018 at 4:29 AM, FlexiveFowl said:

After Ryder betrayed the Grove Street Families in Green Sabre CJ didn't even acknowledge the fact he was there

Ryder does make an appearance later in missions like photo opportunity and pier 69, so his presence can't go unnoticed by cj, thus acknowledging the fact he's still there, and alive... showing no signs of regret after betraying gsf but forming new alliances, expanding business, YET during the mission yay ka boom boom, while having conversation with cesar, cj did feel bad for killing ryder until cesar told him that his dear friend ryder wanted to bang his sister kendl l. So obviously, cj did acknowledge ryder in feeling bad after killing him, but clearly ryder didn't deserve any feeling of sadness coming from cj after what he did to gsf, and his sister.

 

Ryder's death on Pier 69 was crap like a side villains death. 

He was a side villain, wasn't he? Regarding death scenes, they are always debatable, some may like it, while some will find it disappointing. 

I think Ryder's death scene could have been thought out in a better way, like some bad mouthing between cj and ryder, fighting sequences, or even more interesting conversations between them.. on this point i will agree with you for a better death scenario

 

and it isn't even explained why Ryder did what he did

It is understood in the game as you progress into the story, not sure what more explanation is required here. 

 

Did R* not know what to do with him after Green Sabre?

Like i pointed above, ryder does make a couple of appearances, later, so r* didn't completely forget about him.

 

[LloydGTA3]

There could be many reasons

 

1) R* probably had issues with Ryder's voice actor and the latter couldn't record any new voices for the character, so R* had no choice other than to improvise Ryder's betrayal, which is corroborated by his recycled lines and dull death scene in Pier 69

 

2) R* didn't originally plan to make Ryder a main character of the series, but they took a fascinating appeal on his character and changed his design and made him one of the main characters in the end.

 

3) R* just didn't know how Ryder was gonna fit in the world outside of Los Santos since he's written as a hardcore gangster from the urban blight of South Central.

 

Let's face it, Ryder's betrayal was undeniably improvised no matter how much the ones who oppose (probably the annoying San Andreas fanboys who think everything about the game is perfect) want to repudiate it, and they could use the Introduction video as many times as they want, because that was made after the game itself had finished development. If R* really wanted to get rid of Ryder somehow, they should've killed him off as a loyal member of the GSF gangs, because his betrayal still made no sense.

[Official General]

3 hours ago, LloydGTA3 said:

There could be many reasons

 

1) R* probably had issues with Ryder's voice actor and the latter couldn't record any new voices for the character, so R* had no choice other than to improvise Ryder's betrayal, which is corroborated by his recycled lines and dull death scene in Pier 69

 

2) R* didn't originally plan to make Ryder a main character of the series, but they took a fascinating appeal on his character and changed his design and made him one of the main characters in the end.

 

3) R* just didn't know how Ryder was gonna fit in the world outside of Los Santos since he's written as a hardcore gangster from the urban blight of South Central.

 

Let's face it, Ryder's betrayal was undeniably improvised no matter how much the ones who oppose (probably the annoying San Andreas fanboys who think everything about the game is perfect) want to repudiate it, and they could use the Introduction video as many times as they want, because that was made after the game itself had finished development. If R* really wanted to get rid of Ryder somehow, they should've killed him off as a loyal member of the GSF gangs, because his betrayal still made no sense.

You're putting a bit too much thought into this, it's a 15 year-old game, I really don't think it matters anymore at this stage. We don't have control over the script, you either accept it or simply don't play it if it bothers you sop much. Better yet, play SA on PC and use mods to bring Ryder back to life, you can even play as him. 

[watersgta3]

2 hours ago, Official General said:

You're putting a bit too much thought into this, it's a 15 year-old game, I really don't think it matters anymore at this stage. We don't have control over the script, you either accept it or simply don't play it if it bothers you sop much. Better yet, play SA on PC and use mods to bring Ryder back to life, you can even play as him. 

Ok, you really need to chill out, dude. There is no need for you to make a big deal out of this.

[LloydGTA3]

13 hours ago, Official General said:

You're putting a bit too much thought into this, it's a 15 year-old game, I really don't think it matters anymore at this stage. We don't have control over the script, you either accept it or simply don't play it if it bothers you sop much. Better yet, play SA on PC and use mods to bring Ryder back to life, you can even play as him. 

Mate, all I was doing was answering the OP's question and gave my own interpretation of the topic. YOU'RE the one who's putting way too much bitching into this reply. This is the GTA forum. We have the freedom to say whatever the f*ck we feel. So kindly f*ck off, pal!

[Ballas King]

On 11/8/2018 at 6:38 PM, TheSantader25 said:

Tenpenny is seen in Ryder's house during "Catalyst". 

Tenpenny is also seen assaulting CJ at the beginning, it could be well Tenpenny forcing Ryder to bribe him for his drug stuffs we even see Ryder getting manhandled, also it didnt hint any suspicious activity, just a cop assaulting Ryder an every day gang banger. Smoke's on the other hand is never revealed, but when they go outside together (Wrong Side of the Tracks) they seem to be getting along, and Smoke's answers to CJ's query of what Tenpenny was doing their was surprisingly dismissive. Also in Drive Thru Smoke keeps eating while Ryder does help CJ and Sweet fight the Ballas, Smoke's statement implies a lot more than whats observable on surface: "Man, if you can eat your food, while everybody else is losing theirs, and blaming you, you straight, homie!". And in Green Saber Ryder only appears but isnt even mentioned. My guess is Ryder's betrayal was an after thought, he didnt even have any dialogues after Reuniting the Families, the cant stop me in Pier 69 was borrowed from an earlier mission. Like others pointed out SA had too many prominent characters so Rockstar probably decided to cut off  Ryder just like that.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ballas King

[Fat C0Ck Johnson]

Cesar actually lied to CJ about Ryder banging Kendl, if he didn't, CJ would've probably left Ryder out to change himself, I mean, you saw CJ hesitating to go out battling Ryder right? But, in fact, if CJ let Ryder alive, things would've gone worse or better.

[Limefong]

On 11/7/2018 at 8:53 PM, Official General said:

CJ in fact did acknowledge what Ryder did. I am pretty sure he mentioned Ryder's betrayal to Kendl in a cutscene of a San Fierro mission not too long after he had killed his old friend, and he seemed distraught about it when he spoke about it to her. Besides, the main object of his betrayal was Big Smoke, so naturally, the focus would be more on him, since it was Big Smoke that was the ringleader of the betrayal.

When did he mention ryder's betrayal to Kendle? Can you show me a proof?

[watersgta3]

On 5/18/2020 at 8:26 PM, Limefong said:

When did he mention ryder's betrayal to Kendle? Can you show me a proof?

He didn't. He only mentioned it to Cesar, who made up some random sh*t about Ryder trying to bang Kendl, even though no such evidence of this claim has been validated.

 

Honestly, since Ryder played no significant role as a traitor, Rockstar should've either killed him off as a loyal member of Grove Street in the Green Sabre mission, or have him stay by CJ's side during the latter's exile.

Edited June 15, 2020 by watersgta3

[AjdarFan]

Rockstar should've easily ended his character properly without him betraying the GSF lol. They could've martyred him in the Green Sabre shootout, one that Sweet is imprisoned and Carl is captured by Tenpenny and dumped into couuntryside. That's it, and it wouldn't require more extra resources to tax the old PS2 hardware. It would be much better than his sh*tty half assed ending and it would give CJ all the more reason to hunt down Smoke. Here's a video about this from the same guy that made character analysis video (posted on the first page of this topic):