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BlondieandTuco

SPOILER:The Tragedy that is Red Dead Redemption

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BlondieandTuco
On 11/13/2018 at 3:38 AM, Boozey St James said:

The pure look of sadness in the horse's eyes too. At least I treated her good! 

I finished Hamish’s stranger missions which end with him giving you his horse Buell, a unique Dutch warm blood with bright blue eyes. I started to use him as my main horse to honor Hamish, and the blind man even said “Be careful taking a friends horse, for the end is never predictable.” Seeing Buell die like that because of my own mistakes really hit me hard.

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SAS_Intruder
On 11/6/2018 at 5:53 AM, JumpingKentFlash said:

.... and to add: Video games can do a very slow burning story that keeps you locked in for days. No other media can do that. A movie does it in 2 hours. A song is maybe 4 minutes. Video games can take their time doing it, just like we had with RDR2. 

Not quite true. TV shows can do it longer than video games.

On 11/23/2018 at 11:15 AM, BlondieandTuco said:

I finished Hamish’s stranger missions which end with him giving you his horse Buell, a unique Dutch warm blood with bright blue eyes. I started to use him as my main horse to honor Hamish, and the blind man even said “Be careful taking a friends horse, for the end is never predictable.” Seeing Buell die like that because of my own mistakes really hit me hard.

But what happened to Buell if we don't ride him in last mission? Because I never used Buell after I got him, I wanted to fulfill my promise and keep him safe. So Blind Man isn't right in my case?

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BlondieandTuco
On 11/25/2018 at 11:20 AM, SAS_Intruder said:

Not quite true. TV shows can do it longer than video games.

But what happened to Buell if we don't ride him in last mission? Because I never used Buell after I got him, I wanted to fulfill my promise and keep him safe. So Blind Man isn't right in my case?

The blind man will only say this to you if you have Buell as your main horse, if you kept him in a stable then Buell was probably sold off when Arthur never showed up after a few weeks. Having Buell die with me made the ending twice as impactful since my horse had a legit story behind it rather than being stable bought or caught in the wild or stolen from someone I killed etc. Not to mention Buell is the only horse Arthur will call by name sometimes like when mounting up he’ll say “Let’s go Buell” and other lines.

Edited by BlondieandTuco
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BoulderFaceplant

I don’t understand how the Pinkertons finding Micah’s body made them any more likely to find Marston. They had no way of knowing John was involved, and even if they did, what would trace them back to Beecher’s Hope? If they already knew John was at Beecher’s Hope, I don’t see how one more violent act, against a wanted criminal, no less, is anything to make them pull the trigger on John. 

 

And if Micah was working with the Pinkertons, Ross’s entire philosophy goes from hypocritical and self-contradictory, to just treasonous and not believable. Micah was terrorizing and killing people all over the region by that point, it was in the papers. 

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Guest Guest176525326
On 11/25/2018 at 7:20 PM, SAS_Intruder said:

Not quite true. TV shows can do it longer than video games.

But what happened to Buell if we don't ride him in last mission? Because I never used Buell after I got him, I wanted to fulfill my promise and keep him safe. So Blind Man isn't right in my case?

I did 2 of the last Hamish’s missions after I finished the story. 

 

Buell is still alive and kicking. Not a bad horse actually. 

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ThroatSlasher2
21 minutes ago, BoulderFaceplant said:

I don’t understand how the Pinkertons finding Micah’s body made them any more likely to find Marston. They had no way of knowing John was involved, and even if they did, what would trace them back to Beecher’s Hope? If they already knew John was at Beecher’s Hope, I don’t see how one more violent act, against a wanted criminal, no less, is anything to make them pull the trigger on John. 

 

And if Micah was working with the Pinkertons, Ross’s entire philosophy goes from hypocritical and self-contradictory, to just treasonous and not believable. Micah was terrorizing and killing people all over the region by that point, it was in the papers. 

My guess is that Micah's death reignited the case of the Van der Linde gang. What was left of the gang most likely didn't make a lot of noise after the events of RDR II so my guess is the case went cold.

 

As for Micah's fate, it was clearly a revenge killing, so they could easily narrow it down quite a bit. Who did Micah wrong that had the ability to almost single-handedly bring him and his gang down? They obviously were faced with someone that was very capable and also possessed a lot of skill (which I'm sure was a compellent factor in sending him capture Williamson, Escuella and Van der Linde). I'm sure they figured (correctly) that they had a dangerous member of Dutch's gang between their hands.

 

They eventually found John because he made a lot of noise and is easily recognizable. Ross probably physically described several ex-members to the people they interrogated and every time he described the man with prominent facial scars, the witnesses were reminded of John and spilled the info. 

 

Add to the fact that Dutch was later believed to have been seen in Tall Trees and you've got a very strong case as to why they found John easily. They now knew one of Dutch's boy was alive and well.

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jje1000

For all of its posturing about the inevitability of some things, it strikes me that RDRII is a tragedy that occurs due to a very specific series of events and occurrences.

 

This begs the question of whether or not some of it could have been avoided had the characters made different decisions. Some of those events sometimes do seem incidental yet are unavoidable, which sometimes feels at odds with the game's open-ended nature. For instance, the Thomas Downes mission comes specifically to mind.

 

Edited by jje1000
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Scaeva
On 11/8/2018 at 3:20 PM, BlondieandTuco said:

Absolutely, I'd hate playing a Red Dead Game that takes place a few years before the first world war, it wouldn't even be a western at that point. Jacks story is fine being ambiguous and it should stay that way, I know this is kind of crazy but I wouldn't mind playing Micah. Yes he's an asshole, yes he killed Arthur, yes he betrayed the gang. But could you imagine actually playing an antagonist, it's what people were kind of expecting in this story since we play outlaws for once, but we grew onto Arthur for his resentment against his actions and teaching John better. We could murder and pillage as much as we wanted and we'd probably understand why Micah is the way he is, although there was the mexico part of the map being leaked so who knows maybe they will follow another gang member, perhaps Javier and how he established himself in Mexico, I wouldn't mind getting a companion story following Bill and Javier after the gang broke apart since those two stayed fairly close.

 

If the devs were going to put players into the boots of one of the series' villains in a prequel, Dutch would probably be a much better choice. He is a much more complex character and we're told that in the gang's early years he was more like Robin Hood than a common bandit, sometimes distributing the gang's spoils to the poor. It could be interesting to follow a character who goes from being somewhat noble rogue to outright villain over the course of the game, and if written well could be just as tragic or melancholy in tone as Arthur's tale.

 

Of course it wouldn't be a redemption story however, so the final R in RDR3 would have to change from Redemption to another word if it were about Dutch.

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BlondieandTuco
On 12/2/2018 at 11:46 AM, Scaeva said:

 

If the devs were going to put players into the boots of one of the series' villains in a prequel, Dutch would probably be a much better choice. He is a much more complex character and we're told that in the gang's early years he was more like Robin Hood than a common bandit, sometimes distributing the gang's spoils to the poor. It could be interesting to follow a character who goes from being somewhat noble rogue to outright villain over the course of the game, and if written well could be just as tragic or melancholy in tone as Arthur's tale.

 

Of course it wouldn't be a redemption story however, so the final R in RDR3 would have to change from Redemption to another word if it were about Dutch.

“Remember when we actually used to help people Arthur.” -Hosea 

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jje1000

 

I think there's another tragedy in this, and it's Dutch's. Despite his presentation as a villain, I think Dutch did really care about his 'family'- and you could sort of see it in the "What I have done" look on his face at the finale. While a lot of the gang is more or less replaceable (and it's accepted as a risk in the line of work), his 'family'- namely Hosea, Arthur and John aren't- they're people he's ridden with for at least 10-25 years, and people who he's grown up with. The man basically goes from feeling like he's been dealt a minor setback, to losing his gang and his entire family, all within in the span of half-a-year or so. So by the end of it all, Hosea is dead, Arthur is dead and he can't trust John, because he's internalized the idea that John was the traitor all along.

 

This is a story arc of a figure of confidence, who starts off feeling like he can still carve out a space of his own in the world, to one making poor decisions under increasing pressure and feeling that his leadership is under question (by his 'sons' nonetheless), to finally a ragged individual relentlessly hunted by the government and put down by his youngest son. I wonder how lonely it must have been for him in the decade after what happened at Beaver Hollow.

 

 

I think this statement below (about why he was with Micah in the epilogue) says it all:

 

Quote

I definitely think he was there to kill Micah. Dutch, as f*cked up as he is, did truly love Hosea, John, and Arthur as his family. Hosea was his brother while John and Arthur were his sons. That being said, he had a very twisted idea of what loyalty was and what was and wasn't moral.

 

I also see this as the reason he jumped off the cliff at the end of RDR1. He knew that John didn't want to kill him and he damn sure didn't want to kill John. He could remove himself from blame if he were to let someone die, but he sure could never do it himself. It may seem weird, but I bet any of the rest of you would pull the same mental gymnastics to avoid seeing yourself as a bad man.

 

Dutch very strongly wanted to be the Robin Hood styled noble outlaw. He wanted to fight against the rich and powerful. He wanted to lead his family to the promised land. He wanted to be the saviour at any cost. He wanted to be worshipped, almost. He had some kind of a realization over those eight years that everyone's death and the end of the gang was all his fault, but he pushed that blame on to Micah. He came to kill Micah so he could absolve himself of his sins. He gave John the money for the same reason.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/reddeadmysteries/comments/a3q56e/so_was_dutch_there_tospoilers_spoilers_spoilers/

 

Edited by jje1000
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Smokewood
On 11/6/2018 at 8:49 PM, JOSEPH X said:

If they set RDR 3 in 1860 it would still open with "The year is 1860 and the age of gunslingers is coming to an end" I don't think you people get how much of this game is gun control propaganda.

please get that sh*t out of here!!!

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BlondieandTuco
On 11/28/2018 at 10:42 PM, BoulderFaceplant said:

I don’t understand how the Pinkertons finding Micah’s body made them any more likely to find Marston. They had no way of knowing John was involved, and even if they did, what would trace them back to Beecher’s Hope? If they already knew John was at Beecher’s Hope, I don’t see how one more violent act, against a wanted criminal, no less, is anything to make them pull the trigger on John. 

On 12/8/2018 at 8:41 PM, jje1000 said:

 

I think there's another tragedy in this, and it's Dutch's. Despite his presentation as a villain, I think Dutch did really care about his 'family'- and you could sort of see it in the "What I have done" look on his face at the finale. While a lot of the gang is more or less replaceable (and it's accepted as a risk in the line of work), his 'family'- namely Hosea, Arthur and John aren't- they're people he's ridden with for at least 10-25 years, and people who he's grown up with. The man basically goes from feeling like he's been dealt a minor setback, to losing his gang and his entire family, all within in the span of half-a-year or so. So by the end of it all, Hosea is dead, Arthur is dead and he can't trust John, because he's internalized the idea that John was the traitor all along.

 

This is a story arc of a figure of confidence, who starts off feeling like he can still carve out a space of his own in the world, to one making poor decisions under increasing pressure and feeling that his leadership is under question (by his 'sons' nonetheless), to finally a ragged individual relentlessly hunted by the government and put down by his youngest son. I wonder how lonely it must have been for him in the decade after what happened at Beaver Hollow.

 

 

I think this statement below (about why he was with Micah in the epilogue) says it all:

 

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/reddeadmysteries/comments/a3q56e/so_was_dutch_there_tospoilers_spoilers_spoilers/

 

And if Micah was working with the Pinkertons, Ross’s entire philosophy goes from hypocritical and self-contradictory, to just treasonous and not believable. Micah was terrorizing and killing people all over the region by that point, it was in the papers. 

The Pinkertons and Ross use any methods to achieve their goals, why wouldn't he employ Micah as a rat? He employed John as a hired gun to hunt down Bill, Javier, and Dutch in the first game and then stabbed him in the back in the end, Ross didn't go after John for killing Micah, Ross went after John because John proved he was a capable hired gun by being able to kill Micah. Think about it the events of the first game is basically Ross saying "You started the job, now finish it." The job being hunting down the gang, because in all honesty John was the only one who could, he knows how the gang members think because he's spent years with them. Before the epilogue John had been hiding out in the Yukon with his family, Ross's only lead on Dutch was that he died in the fire everyone talks about, Bill was hiding out in New Austin, Javier returned to Mexico, and as Sadie states she hadn't heard anything about Micah for 5 years but now she's hearing stories of someone who sounds like him. Johns capability to kill Micah was what interested Ross in the first place, hence why we see Ross and his partner finding Micah in the mountains, the only way they probably could've known he was up there is if they were still in contact with Micah. If so, Micah was probably waiting for his moment to give up Dutch and win immunity along with a free pass out for all he'd done. 

 

Dutch had been going insane because he couldn't cope with the changing world, the realization that "There's no place for us anymore" -Dutch's last words before he commits suicide, paired alongside the major concussion he got in Saint Denis after the trolley station robbery setup leaves his train of thought unpredictable. "Say something Dutch, say something!" -John, "I don't say much these days John." -Dutch in reply when they have the mexican standoff on the mountain. This isn't the Dutch that Arthur and John grew up with, for all we know he truly was trying to team up with Micah and it was obviously working considering the amount of money and gold they had stashed in the cabin, but Dutch didn't even say a word about it after helping John kill Micah. It was probably the last event that we saw a shade of Dutch's former self, "Loyalty means a lot to Dutch." -Arthur, I think everyone overlooked the head injury Dutch got in Saint Denis, he was seeing threes of everything as he said, could barely walk or shoot, and immediately after this comes Hosea and Lenny's death along with losing all of the bank money and being stranded in Guarma, where we then see Dutch kill an old lady to Arthurs horror. Concussions were practically impossible to heal in the late 1800's and early 1900's because nobody truly knew what they were, Dutch's brain was probably damaged tremendously from the impact and I like to believe it's ultimately what sealed the deal there since everything goes downhill after it happens (Dutch drowns and feeds Bronte to the alligators, his closest and oldest friends death, getting stuck in a shootout immediately after returning from Guarma along with the possibility of the rat, Molly's drunk rambling about ratting him out and then being shot, etc.). 

Edited by BlondieandTuco
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