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BlondieandTuco

SPOILER:The Tragedy that is Red Dead Redemption

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Boozey St John
On 11/7/2018 at 3:43 AM, player_one said:

I agree, the end of chapter 6 really hit me hard. Especially that moment saying thank you to your horse. It’s that final stage of everything falling to pieces.

 

incredible!

Oh man, that hit me in the feels.

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TheOriginalGunslinger

The “Redemption” factor could go grown up Jack’s way as well. Everytime I seen the little guy at camp I just think, “this kid has a hell of a future ahead of him”.

Edited by TheOriginalGunslinger

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ThroatSlasher2
2 hours ago, TheOriginalGunslinger said:

The “Redemption” factor could go grown up Jack’s way as well. Everytime I seen the little guy at camp I just think, “this kid has a hell of a future ahead of him”.

And yet some simpleton folks around here call him a jackass (no pun intended) and absolutely despise the character for his "attitude problems". 

 

I think what makes Jack's story so compelling is that its incomplete. Did he get arrested, trialed, murdered? Did he recover and become a normal citizen? I don't ever want to know and it should stay that way.

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BlondieandTuco
1 minute ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

And yet some simpleton folks around here call him a jackass (no pun intended) and absolutely despise the character for his "attitude problems". 

 

I think what makes Jack's story so compelling is that its incomplete. Did he get arrested, trialed, murdered? Did he recover and become a normal citizen? I don't ever want to know and it should stay that way.

Absolutely, I'd hate playing a Red Dead Game that takes place a few years before the first world war, it wouldn't even be a western at that point. Jacks story is fine being ambiguous and it should stay that way, I know this is kind of crazy but I wouldn't mind playing Micah. Yes he's an asshole, yes he killed Arthur, yes he betrayed the gang. But could you imagine actually playing an antagonist, it's what people were kind of expecting in this story since we play outlaws for once, but we grew onto Arthur for his resentment against his actions and teaching John better. We could murder and pillage as much as we wanted and we'd probably understand why Micah is the way he is, although there was the mexico part of the map being leaked so who knows maybe they will follow another gang member, perhaps Javier and how he established himself in Mexico, I wouldn't mind getting a companion story following Bill and Javier after the gang broke apart since those two stayed fairly close.

Edited by BlondieandTuco

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ThroatSlasher2
5 minutes ago, BlondieandTuco said:

Absolutely, I'd hate playing a Red Dead Game that takes place a few years before the first world war, it wouldn't even be a western at that point. Jacks story is fine being ambiguous and it should stay that way, I know this is kind of crazy but I wouldn't mind playing Micah. Yes he's an asshole, yes he killed Arthur, yes he betrayed the gang. But could you imagine actually playing an antagonist, it's what people were kind of expecting in this story since we play outlaws for once, but we grew onto Arthur for his resentment against his actions and teaching John better. We could murder and pillage as much as we wanted and we'd probably understand why Micah is the way he is, although there was the mexico part of the map being leaked so who knows maybe they will follow another gang member, perhaps Javier and how he established himself in Mexico, I wouldn't mind getting a companion story following Bill and Javier after the gang broke apart since those two stayed fairly close.

I don't think a Micah-like character would work at all. The reason why we relate to John so much is because we understand what he's fighting for and we can relate to his moral struggles. He's a man who was forced to change or else he and his family would have been murdered. Arthur, who's actually a lot grey-er than Marston, can be ruthless and cold blooded. We know that most of his dishonorable actions can be attributed to his undeniable loyalty to the gang and we can certainly understand why, because we care for them as well. The game does an excellent job at making this grand cast of personalities all mesh incredibly well with Arthur, in one way or another. And yet, once Arthur starts to realize that it's all a bunch of bullsh*t and excuses, his perception of things changes and so does ours. 

 

But Micah is just in it for himself and to be honest, I don't quite relate to such a spiteful character.

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BlondieandTuco
2 minutes ago, ThroatSlasher2 said:

I don't think a Micah-like character would work at all. The reason why we relate to John so much is because we understand what he's fighting for and we can relate to his moral struggles. He's a man who was forced to change or else he and his family would have been murdered. Arthur, who's actually a lot grey-er than Marston, can be ruthless and cold blooded. We know that most of his dishonorable actions can be attributed to his undeniable loyalty to the gang and we can certainly understand why, because we care for them as well. The game does an excellent job at making this grand cast of personalities all mesh incredibly well with Arthur, in one way or another. And yet, once Arthur starts to realize that it's all a bunch of bullsh*t and excuses, his perception of things changes and so does ours. 

 

But Micah is just in it for himself and to be honest, I don't quite relate to such a spiteful character.

A matter of preference I guess, I always liked playing the bad guys even though I played Arthur full honor because i felt his character deserved it. Sort of like we enjoyed playing Kratos in god of war even though he was a villain driven by vengeance, for me it would make Arthurs death to Micah seem a little more fitting. I always assumed Arthur and Micah would fight sooner or later and it would end in a draw with the both of them dying, only to be left shocked by the true outcomes which is what I love about these games. Getting a little more depth on Micah besides him being a psychopath who enjoys killing to make it feel like Arthur didn't just die to a scumbag (unless that's whats intended), not to mention the fact that Micahs gun slinging skills were crazy, I remember the fight against him with John and getting my ass killed twice because those dual wielding double actions. I ended up using dynamite to beat him haha, I should hate Micah but I kinda don't, it's funny the parallels we see in Micahs character. In most western movies we see the good guy wearing a white hat (usually in John Waynes movies and other classics) but throughout the game Micah wears a wide brimmed white hat while Arthur wears a black hat (often seen on the villain in movies), to me Micahs story was a bit jarring since him and Arthur go from being "playful" rivals too Arthur being replaced by Micah simply because Micah agrees with Dutch. I also never understood the part where Dutch walks away because he realizes Micah's the rat and his surrogate sons dying because of his mistakes, but then all of the sudden Dutch and Micah are back together at the end, it felt a little rushed to me just to show us Dutch was still around.

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ThroatSlasher2

^ I see that as Dutch not being able to cope with what has just transpired and walking away. As if the problem would just go away.

 

When we see him once again in 1907 with Micah, it seems more like he partnered with him because Micah might be the only one crazy enough to trust him. Maybe it was a way to get himself slowly back into frame to build a new gang, the one comprised mostly of natives.

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Jedster

Loved the story, every god damn second of it... dropped a tear when Arthur gave his last breath on top that mountain, had goose bumps almost whole time during last epilogue mission while blowing everyone in my way in to pieces with my pump-action shotgun...

And I hate Strauss even more now when I know that Arthur got his TB by collecting debts for him.

 

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The Algerian
On 11/6/2018 at 1:50 PM, tonko said:

For me RDR 2 story is just like RDR 1 story, tragic and beautiful at the same time.

 

In both games: Friendship. Betrayal. A way of life is dying. What lies ahead?

 

 

I found RDR2's ending much sadder than RDR1.

At least John got to have a sudden and flamboyant death, and it was pretty much unavoidable.

Arthur should just have ran off with Mary the first time he met with her in Valentine.

Or he could've left somewhere warm when he got diagnosed and taken the good part of the group with him, and just ditch the bad apples behind.

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BlondieandTuco
2 hours ago, The Algerian said:

I found RDR2's ending much sadder than RDR1.

At least John got to have a sudden and flamboyant death, and it was pretty much unavoidable.

Arthur should just have ran off with Mary the first time he met with her in Valentine.

Or he could've left somewhere warm when he got diagnosed and taken the good part of the group with him, and just ditch the bad apples behind.

Arthur was smart enough to realize if he suddenly started telling people to leave he'd be recognized as a traitor, after the last time you meet Mary, Arthur promises to see her soon once he has enough money and they can run off together. But if we took out the whole Mary and Arthur never get back together arc then John would never get the picture of them together and Marys ring to propose to Abigail with.

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Jabalous

My suspicions about Micah turned true. He also wanted to bring Dutch with him, so the the Pinkertons can arrest him and then he claims the bounty on Dutch's head. Arthur could've done the same, but he lived by a code and it was not a selfish one. 

Edited by Jabalous

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BlondieandTuco
39 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

My suspicions about Micah turned true. He also wanted to bring Dutch with him, so the the Pinkertons can arrest him and then he claims the bounty on Dutch's head. Arthur could've done the same, but he lived by a code and it was not a selfish one. 

Well I don't think Micah planned on giving Dutch up (not that he wouldn't) because in the epilogue we see the pair of them have reunited and Micah states him and Dutch are starting their own gang, as Micah says before Arthur dies he's a "Survivor, there's living, and there's dying." Micah just does whatever is in his best interest, I doubt Micah would've ever been pardoned if he gave up Dutch considering he practically murdered everyone in Strawberry just for his guns and I'm sure Micah knew this, he was just playing his cards till the opportunity to give up Dutch was better than whatever the two of them were coming up with.

13 hours ago, Jedster said:

Loved the story, every god damn second of it... dropped a tear when Arthur gave his last breath on top that mountain, had goose bumps almost whole time during last epilogue mission while blowing everyone in my way in to pieces with my pump-action shotgun...

And I hate Strauss even more now when I know that Arthur got his TB by collecting debts for him.

 

I hated Strauss too but he didn't force Arthur to go loan sharking, Arthur did it willingly. Not to mention we find out in the epilogue that Strauss got captured by the pinkertons after Arthur kicked him out of the camp, and he was tortured to death because he wouldn't give up anyone from the gang, which John replies that sometimes it's the people you least expect that end up being the most loyal. Strauss was a criminal the same as every member of the gang, but in the end he kept his loyalties straight and ended up dying for the people that threw him out because they were still his family. He could've given up John, Sadie, Charles, Abigail, etc. but chose to be beaten to death instead.  

Edited by BlondieandTuco
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The Algerian
58 minutes ago, BlondieandTuco said:

Arthur was smart enough to realize if he suddenly started telling people to leave he'd be recognized as a traitor

Nobody said anything about shouting it throughout the whole camp, though.

I can't see how hard it would've been to talk to everyone but Bill, Javier, Dutch and Micah, without them knowing about it.

Pearson and Mary-Beth (maybe Karen too, I don't remember what happened to her) did just that, they left before anyone even noticed.

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el capito

"You hold onto the past at the expense of the future."  

"Two strangers will come for you. One from this world, one from another. One brings hate, the other I'm not sure."

- Blind man to John Marston

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Oldsport

am i thr only one that thinks the gov was gon come after john regardless

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Journey_95

I remember being sceptical that Rockstar was doing a prequel instead of doing something completely new but it paid off very well. RDR2's story is a masterpiece, no doubt one of the best in gaming (I hope it gets enough appreciation, people love to circlejerk over Naughty Dog's stories but often ignore Rockstar's even when they focus on that aspect a lot, see RDR and GTA IV).

 

And yeah it's really tragic and only makes RDR even sadder.

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tonko
On 11/10/2018 at 7:17 PM, el capito said:

"You hold onto the past at the expense of the future."  

"Two strangers will come for you. One from this world, one from another. One brings hate, the other I'm not sure."

- Blind man to John Marston

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, just wow.

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Arthur Bell

PC player here - borrowed an unused PS4 to play the game. Initially had intent to get an Xbox one x for my 4k TV, but budget concerns opted for the free console use.

 

I thought RDR was impossible to top. Playing this, I was sucked into the story nearly the whole way through, and I love the topic of revenge not always being a good answer to problems. Instead, it often lands people in worse problems. Arthur and John are very different protagonists, but have a great level of depth to their personalities.

 

Then there's Dutch. In the first game, he only hints towards his older self through dialogue to John. Even better, he goes out with a soft wimper at his end, rather than a final shootout. In the prequel, I fell in love with his charismatic personality, and felt hurt by watching his gradual descent into useless chaos. He's the best Rockstar villain in terms of depth as well. Forever, I'll enjoy the redemption games more than GTA.

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saintsrow
On 11/8/2018 at 12:18 PM, ThroatSlasher2 said:

And yet some simpleton folks around here call him a jackass (no pun intended) and absolutely despise the character for his "attitude problems". 

 

I think what makes Jack's story so compelling is that its incomplete. Did he get arrested, trialed, murdered? Did he recover and become a normal citizen? I don't ever want to know and it should stay that way.

Spoiler:  After taking his revenge on Edgar Ross and getting away clean, Jack becomes a successful rancher, but then after a couple of years, he gets drafted into the US Army, and dies in a poison gas attack in WW1.  

 

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el capito

Jack became a writer and wrote the book Red Dead based on his experiences growing up with the Dutch's gang. 😉

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Arthur Bell

Jack in his old age visits London in the 1960s and gets hit by a stolen automobile

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Deadman2112

Well this is just my opinion, and

I'm sure some will disagree but once you see the photos side by side it's kind of understandable.

 

John always suspected Jack wasn't his and I think this is the real tragedy.

 

I believe the real father and son of red dead are...

 

 

...same nose

...same jaw line

...same brow

...same checks

...same eyes


latest?cb=20181111204151


latest?cb=20120102140506

 

And if my memory serves me Jack has the same mole on the left side of his face. Although you can't see it in ths photo.

Not...

18033895_1304042146344724_18678247181073
 

Unless somehow Abigail was secretly Dutch's sister, but I'm doubtful of that.

 

The only question is...

Dutch would have know, so I wonder why he never said anything?

 

Edited by Deadman2112
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Arthur Bell

They all had Abigail

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Deadman2112
On 11/12/2018 at 7:10 AM, Nick Testbranch said:

They all had Abigail

Oh I know. They spoke about it often in redemption...

 

But in spite of that I do have a possible alternative theory...

 

Maybe Dutch and Jack are the same person and, if John really is his father...

Then maybe Dutch found a way to slip back in time to try and save him somehow, maybe even save both of them, but failed.

It seems apparently he rathered anything other then some pinkerton or the noose.

 

Dutch did say to John at the end of redemption in the final chase...

"Why are you doing this John, we are family "

 

I say this because of the guy with the compass. How when you meet him as a man only to return and find him as a child.

 

And this...

45428195_693976567652857_138102890991452

 

 

Edited by Deadman2112

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JumpingKentFlash

It’d actually be pretty cool if they did a game with Jack after the events of RDR1. He could go fight in WW1 or something. And then go home to see his son, die, and then we play on as Jack’s son in the 1920s. I don’t know. I’m just a sucker for games continuing a story. Who better than R* to give a good take on American culture and history? The end of the Old West and continuing up until the start of the GTAs.

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Jabalous

Dutch siding with Micah at the end, while the Pinkertons were about to storm their last hideout, can be explained in that he was persuaded by Micah's advocacy for anything he suggests or does and saw Arthur as a danger after he started doubting him and openly challenging his decisions. Dutch loved to be the only voice and saw no one at his level of thought, even his long-time friend Hosea. Bill and Javier were on their side at the end, too, not merely because they held something against Arthur, but because of their blind faith in Dutch. Arthur wasn't a favorite of Bill either way, but from our interactions with Javier, he seems to like Arthur and thought high of him. 

Edited by Jabalous
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Deadman2112
39 minutes ago, Jabalous said:

Dutch loved to be the only voice and saw no one at his level

 

lol no doubt.

He even hates being ignored.

Read the subtitle if you cant hear him.

 

 

Edited by Deadman2112
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hotrats773
On 11/8/2018 at 8:34 AM, Boozey St James said:

Oh man, that hit me in the feels.


Same here. I don't normally tear up at the end of games but that part got to me.

 

Spoiler

All of that in light of how he knew he was dying and tried his best to right all his wrongs. That nun really got to him :)

As much of a fanboi as I was for RDR, this story hit me harder.

 

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Boozey St John
14 hours ago, hotrats773 said:


Same here. I don't normally tear up at the end of games but that part got to me.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

All of that in light of how he knew he was dying and tried his best to right all his wrongs. That nun really got to him :)

As much of a fanboi as I was for RDR, this story hit me harder.

 

The pure look of sadness in the horse's eyes too. At least I treated her good! 

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Jabalous

Looks like I'm not only one who had his eyes tearing at different occasions toward the end of the final chapters. I admit! Guess what only game did this to me before? It's Redemption. I don't even remember a TV show doing this to me. The fact that I was approaching the end to the game that I was anticipating for 2 years, and the only successor to my favorite 8-years old game, made it an even more sad ending. 

Edited by Jabalous
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