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Jerking For Soup

The grey areas of racism

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Jerking For Soup

Racism is a HUGE issue in the World today, I don't think it needs any explanation.

 

One question I have for all of you is on the concept of variations between racism, and the idea that the consequences of systemic and widespread racism against minority groups is more harmful than that of racism towards the majority racial or ethnic group.

 

I find this one of the greatest dividers between right and left wingers. While I guess you could argue that racism towards blacks, hispanics, asians, etc in white majority nations is greater than the racism whites experience in their own countries mostly due to the influence and quick spread of ideology attached to slander and misrepresentation of a minority group across a majority group being greater than an ideology opposing the majority group, I do think that it is wrong to hold a double standard.

 

It's a grey area I don't think I have a solid idea on. While I do think a lot of arguments are stronger than others in many other situations, I find it hard to pick a side on the concepts of halting racism. I oppose it and I do think it's a systematically constructed method of seperating us, but I find it hard to detach from the absolutes and I think two wrongs still don't make a right. 

 

Another reason I don't fully hop on board with this idea is that supremacists and hate groups use the little influence majority racism has to fear monger others into joining their cause. It's been observed in many white supremacist arguments that they use the idea of whites being killed, discriminated against or "wiped out" to push their ideology. I hate to fall into Godwin's law, but the National Socialists used the idea of Jewish banks, oligarchies on a mission to end the aryan race to commit genocide across Europe.

 

To elaborate, there are areas in western nations where racism against whites exist, yet mostly due to the majority being of white background those ideologies don't usually gain any or as much traction as a white supremacist group might get from manipulating the hatred towards whites into gaining support from those who are brainwashed into believing they just want to protect their race but are actually only feeding into ethnic tribalism.

 

I don't claim to be a genius on this issue or f*ck a genius on any political issue, hence why I'm opening this thread. I just want to hear opinions and good arguments.

Edited by Jerking For Soup

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Saggy
5 hours ago, Jerking For Soup said:

Racism is a HUGE issue in the World today, I don't think it needs any explanation.

 

One question I have for all of you is on the concept of variations between racism, and the idea that the consequences of systemic and widespread racism against minority groups is more harmful than that of racism towards the majority racial or ethnic group.

 

I find this one of the greatest dividers between right and left wingers. While I guess you could argue that racism towards blacks, hispanics, asians, etc in white majority nations is greater than the racism whites experience in their own countries mostly due to the influence and quick spread of ideology attached to slander and misrepresentation of a minority group across a majority group being greater than an ideology opposing the majority group, I do think that it is wrong to hold a double standard.

 

It's a grey area I don't think I have a solid idea on. While I do think a lot of arguments are stronger than others in many other situations, I find it hard to pick a side on the concepts of halting racism. I oppose it and I do think it's a systematically constructed method of seperating us, but I find it hard to detach from the absolutes and I think two wrongs still don't make a right. 

 

Another reason I don't fully hop on board with this idea is that supremacists and hate groups use the little influence majority racism has to fear monger others into joining their cause. It's been observed in many white supremacist arguments that they use the idea of whites being killed, discriminated against or "wiped out" to push their ideology. I hate to fall into Godwin's law, but the National Socialists used the idea of Jewish banks, oligarchies on a mission to end the aryan race to commit genocide across Europe.

 

To elaborate, there are areas in western nations where racism against whites exist, yet mostly due to the majority being of white background those ideologies don't usually gain any or as much traction as a white supremacist group might get from manipulating the hatred towards whites into gaining support from those who are brainwashed into believing they just want to protect their race but are actually only feeding into ethnic tribalism.

 

I don't claim to be a genius on this issue or f*ck a genius on any political issue, hence why I'm opening this thread. I just want to hear opinions and good arguments.

I'm having a little troubling inferring what the double standard you're describing is.  Are you saying that the double standard is that racism targeted toward the majority group is condoned while racist toward the minority groups is condemned? Just seeking clarification.

 

I tend to think of racism in two, maybe three distinct flavors that are an evolution unto themselves.

 

1. Individualized racism

2. Crowd permeated racism

3. Systemic racism

 

I believe most people have experienced individualized racism.  This is simple, it is any time a person has felt wronged and believed that it was due to racist reasons.  It has to be something direct and obviously attributed to racism however.  People saying, "I didn't get financial aid because I'm white," are full of sh*t.  But there are plenty of white people who were beat up because they were white in the wrong neighborhood.

 

Crowd permeated racism is the next step.  I'd liken this to people in the comment sections of YouTube videos justifying police profiling for whatever dubious justification they identify: Usually the erroneous notion that black men are responsible for more crime in the country.

 

That of course leads to systemic racism.  I don't mean in a figurative sense, I mean literally, it goes in a line from individualized racism, to crowd permeated, to systemic.  Once the notion that a crowd holds is accepted to such a great level that legislation can be altered accordingly, that's when it transcends the line to systemic racism.

 

So if you track that from something like, a white woman being mugged by a black man on multiple occasions, it is then generates that crowd permeated racism.  Stereotypes form, preconceived notions already existed, and black men are seen as being more prevalent to commit petty burglary, more apt to be violent, exist.  That then transforms into laws like "stop and frisk" that are transparently targeted towards black neighborhoods, but are obfuscated as being targeted towards "high crime neighborhoods".  In the mean time, the residents of those communities generally abide by this sanitation of the profiling process, finding strength in numbers when they justify it as being a matter of community safety, and then working backward they each individually justify it with one of their own selective negative experiences.

 

This process can happen to any ethnic group, including white people.  The same types of notions and stereotypes are at play among communities of color about white people of course.  The difference is that white people have the direct line of power to transcend that crowd permeated racism into systemic racism.  Individualized and crowd permeated racism effects pretty much every person of every color at some point in their life, to some extent either mild or severe.  However, systemic racism only spares white people, and this is specifically because they are the distinct majority.  If this country was 70% Hispanic, the tables would likely be turned.

 

Eventually crowd-permeated racism just naturally becomes systemic racism due to one group being in control.

 

White nationalists and alt-right types probably understand this better than anyone, and that is why they are trying to preserve the status-quo the way it is.  They fear that if the demographic of the country keeps changing as it is, that brown and black people's crowd-permeated racism will become systemic and whites will become the minorities that are persecuted.  In a way, I have nothing to assuage those fears, but I don't think trying to maintain the supremacy is the right answer: It's just the easiest and the most self-serving for white people.  In a way, it seems like a natural conclusion for them to identify all of this and try to preserve their own power, rather than try to give up their power and make it fair for everyone.

 

That's where I believe they're misguided.  Just having a power struggle isn't going to do any good.  If instead they did recognize that it would become cyclical, and address the types of issues that would prevent matters of racism from transgressing from individualized to crowd-permeated and systemic, then they would prevent such a inequality from existing rather than simply trying to maintain the power in their favor.  I believe that people like MLK succeeded in convincing them of this at the end of the Civil Right's era, but that the last 30-40 years as drawn that wisdom into question, among all demographics.  

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Jerking For Soup

I'm speaking of the distinction between different forms of racism. Both are condemned, but one is clearly more condemned than the other due to better known infamous periods of history.

 

I agree with you on most of everything though, although I do have my own ideas on supremacist groups.

 

I think that while a lot of supremacists/racists/race realists are in fear of demographic change and delusions of a cultural invasion, I do think a lot of the more educated members just don't want endangerment to the upper classes and changes within society that come from racism not existing. I think the argument of a "white genocide" or "cultural invasion" is a very weak yet effective argument into manipulating gullible working class individuals with poor standards of education to build a large collective of supremacists and grow easily with dedicated and loyal members.

 

I think this becomes more blatant when you observe that the majority of minority groups hold no inherent hatred towards society or the majority race, or have greatly similar norms and values to that of a standard native citizen. I think this is a rather racist view to hold that a lot of minority racial groups can't truly assimilate because of their race. Sure some may be a little more centtic towards their culture, but most of the time that doesn't endanger society in the slightest. Most coloured individuals actually subscribe to the norms and values of the society, and the "ghetto mentality" or "criminal hood mentality" is no more than barely a subculture of impoverished minorities.

 

I do believe that racism and race in general is a social construct developed and pushed by upper classes in society in order to control the population. 

 

Growing up in poor neighbourhoods leads to crime, poor education and overall poor living standards. Government use crimes committed to push new legislation that applies to not just people in poor neighbourhoods but the population as a whole, the media profit off of high ratings, misrepresent generally poor minority groups as criminals to encourage more racism which leads to more crime which leads to new legislation which controls the population even more so. Hate inspires violence which is used to further empower the state.

 

It's not only supremacist groups that fall into this cycle though, but sometimes a huge fraction of oppressed minority groups. Just look at the hatred brewing towards whites in the ghettos of nations like the U.S. I feel this isn't "better" or "more acceptable" in any way than white neo-nazi racism, but perhaps a bit more managable.

 

I do believe racism is just hidden more nowadays by the media to the point where people literally debate if racism exists today at all (obviously it does, but not in the minds of a lot of those on the right wing). 

 

The dilemma I have is that if the notion of "no other form of real racism exists other than x racism" I feel that may hold negative consequences for the future. While many groups of right wingers claim systemic racism is the only true form of racism, I feel a lot of left wingers claim that racism only exists towards minority groups, which also promotes negativity and growing hatred. It's hard to say racism is correct, but making acceptions for one group that doesn't apply to another perhaps is another form of injustice.

 

Personally, I think the division of humanity itself is perhaps the most unjust form of "racism", as it opens doors for all forms of hatred. If people see themselves as different groups or tribes of people, it's only a matter of time before it eventually dissolves into tribalism. Division of humans by genetic makeup is perhaps the easiest and most effective way of division, as it is explicit in the appearance of an individual.

 

Many nations, notably the U.S. used the notion of "racism" to build it's infrastructure. Civil Rights mean nothing to governing classes unless they can profit off of them. 

Edited by Jerking For Soup

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G's Ah's
16 hours ago, Saggy said:

Are you saying that the double standard is that racism targeted toward the majority group is condoned while racist toward the minority groups is condemned?

I would hazard a guess that such a sentiment is what the OP was referring to, at least in my interpretation. And that, at least in modern American political discourse (although such sentiments are slowly spreading into the rest of the Anglosphere) it is widespread and common. 

 

Quote

I believe most people have experienced individualized racism.

I would say that most people are perceived to have experienced racism, used racism as an explanation for why they were treated a certain way, or even simply used racism as a way to cover for other things that may have happened in various scenarios. I don't deny that individualised racism does not happen, or that it isn't rare. What I am saying is that perceived racism is entirely dependent on the person who is making the claim of being a victim of racism, and how people interpret people's reactions and treatment of themselves is entirely subjective. 

 

Quote

Crowd permeated racism is the next step.  I'd liken this to people in the comment sections of YouTube videos justifying police profiling for whatever dubious justification they identify: Usually the erroneous notion that black men are responsible for more crime in the country.

 

That of course leads to systemic racism.  I don't mean in a figurative sense, I mean literally, it goes in a line from individualized racism, to crowd permeated, to systemic.  Once the notion that a crowd holds is accepted to such a great level that legislation can be altered accordingly, that's when it transcends the line to systemic racism.

I don't think that one leads to the other, and while institutional racism is one of the byproducts of crowd permeated racism, the latter often results in the former as well. Racist attitudes permeate if there are laws and governments that actively condone and support such beliefs. Crowd permeated racism can exist within a microcosm of society, and not spread through society if it lacks political support, because it will often be interpreted as not having widespread public support. Get political support and people whose opinions may have been kept under wraps by the perception that they're in the minority in terms of attitudes all of a sudden find themselves able to express their beliefs without any fear of negative consequences, and therefore the result is the spread of crowd permeated racism through the development of systemic, or institutional, racism. 

 

Quote

The difference is that white people have the direct line of power to transcend that crowd permeated racism into systemic racism.

I would question that though, because again, it goes back to the whole individualised racism thing, in that people can often perceive racism when it doesn't exist, or do not think something is racist when it is.

 

Quote

White nationalists and alt-right types probably understand this better than anyone, and that is why they are trying to preserve the status-quo the way it is. 

I don't think that's what they either want to do or their intent. If we're talking about the status quo, as in the United States being a majority white country, then that is somewhat correct. But their intention is to not preserve the status quo, because the current status quo is one in which I would guess at a majority of the population believing that racist attitudes are unacceptable. What white nationalist and alt-right types (although again, lumping the latter together would be a bit misleading) want is to go back in time and reconstitute an era where their beliefs were more socially acceptable. Which is impossible to do. 

 

Quote

 In a way, it seems like a natural conclusion for them to identify all of this and try to preserve their own power, rather than try to give up their power and make it fair for everyone.

There are already places where the minority groups who have held institutional power are now subject to state and social persecution at the hands of the formerly oppressed majority, these places being South Africa and Zimbabwe. White nationalists in particular fear this because they know that if minority groups who have been oppressed and discriminated against become a majority, then it is very likely that retribution will be enacted and that the US will end up like South Africa, but on a much grander scale. I certainly don't believe that any group "giving up their power" (I disagree with that entire concept to begin with) would make things fairer, because that's not how humans work. We're opportunistic and power hungry, and as much as we like to think we're altruistic and willing to share, we're also more than happy to seek revenge if we feel if we've been slighted. 

 

Quote

I believe that people like MLK succeeded in convincing them of this at the end of the Civil Right's era, but that the last 30-40 years as drawn that wisdom into question, among all demographics.  

I personally believe that this is because, in the United States, there's been a general transition of rights movements, where they've recognised that the only way to achieve their social and political goals is to acquire and maintain political power. 

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Short Stay
On 11/3/2018 at 9:49 PM, Jerking For Soup said:

...

 It's been observed in many white supremacist arguments that they use the idea of whites being killed, discriminated against or "wiped out" to push their ideology.

...

I've always assumed that when white supremacists talk about being "wiped out" what they really mean to say is that they are against humanity's different races and groups being sublimated into a great homogeneous mixture. Assuming that it wouldn't matter a damn biologically speaking, whether mankind stayed racially divided or mixed into a great gloop, the question arises whether aesthetics and aesthetic preferences should play any part in the choice (assuming we have one).

Edited by Short Stay
I meant homogeneous rather than heterogeneous

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Jerking For Soup
32 minutes ago, Short Stay said:

I've always assumed that when white supremacists talk about being "wiped out" what they really mean to say is that they are against humanity's different races and groups being sublimated into a great heterogeneous mixture. Assuming that it wouldn't matter a damn biologically speaking, whether mankind stayed racially divided or mixed into a great gloop, the question arises whether aesthetics and aesthetic preferences should play any part in the choice (assuming we have one).

That's what I meant. Maybe I didn't word it too well. White supremacists use the "wiped out through impurity" argument a lot.

 

I find it hard to believe the idea of race would die out anyway. Aren't "races" groups differentiated by collective genetic makeup? and genes that differentiate "race" are mutations that arise from climate? e.g more melanin in blacks due to hot conditions? 

 

If whites were to get "bred out of existence" that literally means there'd be no cold climate anymore to have people not form white skin, and certain genes like straight hair, pointed noses, etc that are commonly associated with whites will exist too within the biracial population, so I find it extremely hard to believe whites will just drop out of existence. 

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On 11/5/2018 at 5:00 PM, Jerking For Soup said:

That's what I meant. Maybe I didn't word it too well. White supremacists use the "wiped out through impurity" argument a lot.

 

I find it hard to believe the idea of race would die out anyway. Aren't "races" groups differentiated by collective genetic makeup? and genes that differentiate "race" are mutations that arise from climate? e.g more melanin in blacks due to hot conditions? 

 

If whites were to get "bred out of existence" that literally means there'd be no cold climate anymore to have people not form white skin, and certain genes like straight hair, pointed noses, etc that are commonly associated with whites will exist too within the biracial population, so I find it extremely hard to believe whites will just drop out of existence. 

 

I think you are taking it too literally. I'm pretty sure they just mean being outnumbered and becoming the minority in their "own country". I'm not really sure what you mean by "The grey areas of racism"?

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