...::[The Footy Desk]::... (Part 2)

[Jason]

La Liga has always been like this. Barca have done similar crying sh*t, Aletico, etc. It's a drama fest of a league, hell I'm English and I know the leagues presidents name and yet I don't know the PL's presidents name of the top of my head. It's a bizarre, strange, drama filled league, it makes for great viewing for a neutral but it's a mad league.

 

But Madrid have went crazy this year. The Ballon d'Or stuff, the ref stuff, Rudiger throwing stuff at the ref. The f*ck is going on over there lol.

[TheSantader25]

We've never done anything like Madrid have done this season. We've rightfully shown where the referees have f*cked us in the past decade. But we can't even get away with the sh*t madrid pulled this week(and two months ago) let alone attempt it. They will walk out unscathed. Tonight shows that it works well without consequences so they'll do it again.

 

Nobody has the power to beat real madrid outside of the pitch. We can just hope that we are good enough to beat them even when they have the advantage.

Edited April 27 by TheSantader25

[Ehrmantraut]

Real Madrid are very ugly to watch. A disjointed team that relies entirely on individual talent and, sometimes, luck.

 

IDK why Brazil is so intent on signing Carlo seeing as (IMO) he's not going through his best years as a manager despite what the numbers say.

[TonyRyodan]

9 hours ago, Ehrmantraut said:

IDK why Brazil is so intent on signing Carlo seeing as (IMO) he's not going through his best years as a manager despite what the numbers say.

Cmon I think nobody would say this last season... Leaving this moment aside he made a great job at this second come to Madrid, Barcelona is wayyy superior and yet they struggle to win. 

Football is extremely volatile, one minute you are incredible, the next you are an imbecile, see what so many say about Guardiola just because this season? Results blinds us all.

If you think he is not going to be a good manager at Brazil, then I guess we are really really f*cked, who tha hell would fit then??

[Jason]

Ancelotti could work as an international manager. He's always been known as a manager that's probably the best ever at creating a good atmosphere in the dressing room, a togetherness, good comrade etc, which typically translates to good confidence on the pitch, working for each other, etc. That type of management generally suits international football as installing a style of play isn't something you really have the time to do, it'd be more about shape and getting everyone on the same page.

 

It's the main reason why that Spain team of the late 2000's early 2010's were so dominant, they had world class players ofc but the vast majority of them including the core of the midfield and defence all played for Barcelona so they could bring a version of Barca's style of play to Spain and no one could do anything about it. It's extremely rare you get something like that though.

[Ehrmantraut]

6 hours ago, TonyRyodan said:

Cmon I think nobody would say this last season... Leaving this moment aside he made a great job at this second come to Madrid, Barcelona is wayyy superior and yet they struggle to win. 

Football is extremely volatile, one minute you are incredible, the next you are an imbecile, see what so many say about Guardiola just because this season? Results blinds us all.

If you think he is not going to be a good manager at Brazil, then I guess we are really really f*cked, who tha hell would fit then??

IDK, its just a feeling I have, and its not even due to the current season only, though what Jason said makes a lot of sense.

[Eutyphro]

I saw that game up until the extra time, and I think the same thing about Real as after their Arsenal game, that they lack midfield quality. Barca had a lot of promising attacks where they failed to finish the game off and they let Real get back into the game.

IMO Real should be starting Arda Guler a lot. He has the types of creative qualities their other players are lacking, and Modric is far from his prime at this point and not able to run the midfield anymore like he used to. Arda Guler should start and Rodrygo should likely not be a starter, considering Vinicius and Mbappe are such stars they can't be passed up. But it's clearly also still dubious if Vinicius and Mbappe is a good combo, or that they both have a tendency to attack the same areas too much, and don't complement each other.

What is also clear by now is a thing I have felt for longer and that is that Bellingham is overrated and that he's not in a similar league of midfielders such as Pedri, Odegaard, etc. He's a relatively taller midfielder with a diverse set of qualities, but the creative playmaking abilities that the best midfielders have he does not have.

Anyway, wonderful to see Slot winning the league. A very exciting day for Dutch football to see a Dutch coach win the Premier League for the first time.

Edited April 27 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

Put Bellingham in a team with quality midfielders and defenders who can pass behind him and he'll tear teams to shreds. That's what he's amazing at, running from deep. But he doesn't have that behind him at Madrid or England at the moment.

 

He also needs a summer off and surgery on his shoulder cause seeing his shoulder strapped up every week aint a good look. He's played so much football already, he'll be f*cked by his late 20's if he keeps playing through all these issues.

[Eutyphro]

Bellingham has a lot of the qualities a top striker has, and with Kroos and Modric behind him he was perfect as the ten in that 442, as his defensive abilities are good and sometimes underestimated. But at the end of the day what makes a midfielder a top player is playmaking ability, and in that regards he's not in the realm of people like Pedri, Odegaard, Modric, Kroos etc. Those are the real star midfielders to be honest.

Bellingham can do a job in a system where he has players like that playing with him, but now that Madrid is lacking players like that in their prime his lack of quality in terms of playmaking is even more obvious.

Edited April 27 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

Eh I don't think you have to be a world class playmaker to be a world class midfielder. I don't agree with that at all my self tbh.

 

I would say Bellingham is quite a classic British attacking midfielder in many ways, very Lampard or Gerrard esque. Good all round game, fantastic at getting forward and scoring and creating once in the box.

 

Madrid have more problems than no Kroos or prime Modric. They have no stability in defence or midfield, no spine, no consistent plan beyond boot it forward and hope the front two pull of some magic. They're very disjointed at the moment, crippled by injuries which hasn't helped. Honestly I'd say the only reason they went as far as they did in the CL, the Copa, is their individual quality.

 

A team without a consistent, stable and quality spine aint winning sh*t, and Madrid don't have one right now.

[TheSantader25]

I don't think you should necessarily be a good playmaker to be a good midfielder, but you should at least be able to be relied upon for controlling the game even if you are more of goal scoring lampard esque midfielder. Both Lampard and Gerrard were much better than the current Bellingham at that. They had more dimensions to their game other than scoring goals and creation at the box.

[Eutyphro]

Yeah, Lampard and Gerrard had a whole lot of playmaking capacities. My memory of Lampard as a player is starting to fade a bit, but especially Gerrard was a top tier distributor of the ball. Bellingham is not. He's a good player but his market price and his actual ability don't match up. He's very overestimated in that regard. The fact that he is at 180 million on Transfermarket.com and Pedri and Odegaard in a much lower range is an indication of this.

[Jason]

Sorry, but nope.

 

Gerrard had the famous "hollywood pass" and was great at set pieces but he was rarely if ever Liverpool's central playmaker. Liverpool's prime years when Gerrard was playing had Xabi Alonso behind him, and when he went they bought Aquilani to try and replace him but that didn't go so well and Liverpool's success declined.

 

Lampard on the other hand was the probably the most famous example of a traditional British attacking midfielder of his generation. His whole game wasn't playmaking, running the game, controlling it, it was pass and move. Playmaking midfielders aren't a traditionally British thing, it's more of a European thing. For a very long time, well into the Premier League era, British midfielders were picked at youth level based on physical characteristics and not technical. British midfielders were largely box to box, working hard, doing the defensive work, chipping in with goals, with their on the ball stuff in midfield being largely getting it, passing it and moving - pass and move. Someone like Scholes, who started as a goal scoring attacking midfielder and moved back in his later years into a deep lying playmaker role, was seen as unique for a British midfielder.

 

Modern British coaching has adapted more European aspects, a heavier focus on technical ability for one, but Gerrard and Lampard aren't from that era. They were box to box midfielders, not playmakers. Good on the ball, could pass, yes, but were they known for pinpoint passes and playmaking? Nope. Were they known for controlling games and dictating possession? Nope. Lampard was known for his pass and move play and his third man runs into the box, which combined with his finishing meant he scores hat fulls of goals. Prime Gerrard was a rampaging box to box midfielder with an eye for a goal, arguably his best days were when he played directly behind Torres in the 10 role. Lampard in Cheslea's Mourinho pomp days were crazy direct and had no need for playmaking or dictating possession, they were a counter attacking team where Lampard's late runs into the box thrived.

[Eutyphro]

Just looking at some Lampard highlights I see a player making a lot of risky forward passes trying to create dangerous situations. This was a different era and when he came up his style is pretty much pre tiki taka, but for his era he is a great distributor, and he creates a lot of danger with his passing. Bellingham does not do this. If you look at his highlights you see a lot of focus on dribbles and quite safe passing. This has to do with the way football evolved, but the fact is that the level of playmaking that Gerrard and Lampard provided in their era Bellingham does not provide, and therefore his market value is massively overrated. Considering we are not living in the Lampard/Gerrard era anymore I do not see how he can be worth a supposed 180 million euros like transfermarket claims.

 

I could see him able to as he ages become capable of the type of distribution Lampard engages in, but football is not played like that anymore. Playmakers have moved on, and are much more sophisticated. Those sophisticated playmakers, Modric, Kroos, Xavi, Iniesta, KDB, Odegaard, Pedri, they are the true elite midfielders, and in Bellingham I don't see a player of that type, even if he is as of yet only 21 years old. I see a very all round good player who is a massive goal threat, but the defining qualities of the absolute elite level midfield players he does not show.

 

Even Lampard though, just from how he takes corner kicks, I don't think Bellingham has passes in him like that. I'm not seeing it.

Edited April 28 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

His style wasn't an early form of tika taka. It was pass and move, direct football. It was English football, that's how it was played at the top level in that era lol.

 

Pass, move, direct, get the ball forward, out wide, up to the big man up top (Drogba etc). Chelsea in particular in most of Lampard's time were a very direct, counter attacking based team. They had an insanely strong spine that gave them confidence to soak things up and when they got the ball spring up the pitch in a very direct way. Keeping hold of the ball wasn't essential (where as today it is), so if you go watch highlights you'll think he's taking a lot of risks when in reality that was the norm then in the PL. It's the Pep-era of football where that type of play is now seen as high risk.

 

I'm by no means saying Bellingham is on Lampard's level today cause he's not, Bellingham is 21 years old, an age where Lampard and Gerrard weren't the legendary midfielders we know them as these days - Lampard made his Chelsea debut at 23 for example. So going back at highlights and doing comparisons is a bit unfair, but Bellingham certainly fits the mould of that type of midfielder, box to box, more pass and move based, high work rate, contributing with goals. But that type of midfielder in todays game needs a deep lying playmaker behind him to allow him to make the runs they're good at and Madrid don't have that at all at the moment.

[Eutyphro]

Three points:

1. I called Lampard pre tiki taka, not early tiki taka. Noone in this thread claimed Lampard or Gerrard played a Tiki taka style.

2 Direct passes are also playmaking. Playmaking does not necessarily involve controlling the game. Bellingham is neither good at direct passes to create danger nor controlling the game.

3. Football is no longer played in the manner that Gerrard and Lampard learned to play it. Elite playmakers have to have the ability to control games and have a more sophisticated game. This is a point I made and you did not respond to it.

Edited April 28 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

Direct passes create and start attacks, yes, but the playmaking role in the modern era typically denotes a player who the team is playing through, who gets on the ball and dictates the play, controls possession and the tempo. Again, this type of midfielder essentially did not exist in British football in that era, it was a European thing that came over with the rise of foreign managers (who had success here). For example when Mourinho came to Chelsea and played 4-3-3 it was seen as something brand new, the vast majority of teams played some form of 4-4-2 at that point. United famously bought Veron to play in a 4-3-3 to help us control possession in Europe. Before that a midfielder was expected to play in a 2 where they needed to be box to box, where football was largely about getting the ball to the strikers as quickly as possible. Of course you could class the players involved in getting the ball to the forwards as playmakers, but they don't fit the modern definition of a playmaker. It was a lot of making the right runs and putting the ball in the right areas, outwide, in the channels, etc, than creative passing and movement. This is literally traditional English football right up until the mid 2000's ish.

 

And again my point is that Bellingham is more of a midfielder whose style fits those from that era. I don't think he's a playmaker and I don't think a midfielder needs to be an elite playmaker to be world class, which I've already said so I don't feel the need to debate what a playmaker is or isn't, because the point is that Bellingham isn't one - nor do I think he needs to be one. I've said what type of player he is and the type of team I think he needs to thrive, playmakers behind him who can find his runs.

[TheSantader25]

I blame stupid Napoli for giving Kvara up to PSG for that price. They completed their line up with that signing 

[Jason]

Same old Arsenal under Arteta. Turn up and play the opposition and not their game, get walked over and concede and then get back into it but don't have the quality to do anything. Also PSG should've had a pen.

[Eutyphro]

No Partey no party.

[smokeless6]

Speaking of parties....

 

Brilliant scenes Sunday at Anfield. Well done to the lads for the title. Liverpool were helped in many ways by flawed competition, but that isn't their fault. To win a second PL title, and have no empty ground caused by a pandemic, was wonderful to witness. Good for the players to be able to celebrate with the supporters, and it looked that way. Spurs were amenable, and it never looked in doubt, well after Solanke's goal was canceled out.

 

Well done to Arne Slot, who became one of the few managers to win the league on his debut. I admit to having known little about him when the appointment was made, but he soon showed he was not out of his depth. In many ways he continued on with Klopp's precedents, but also put his own stamp on things. Moving Gravenberch to the 6 looks inspired. Gakpo improved under Slot's tutelage, in my view. The team were probably even better organized defensively. And he did this without signing a single player he wanted. Impressive job. The players are due a huge amount of credit as well, but Slot was the unknown, at least to me, and stepped in to the job and got on with it.

 

If I had a criticism, it's that he doesn't rotate enough. Players like Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliot should be getting more playing time, in my opinion. But they have a trophy, so it all worked out in the end. There are roster moves to be made over the summer. Some players should be gone, and some brought in. Extending Mo and Virgil is done. We will lose TAA it appears and that's a blow, at least on the books. To lose a player like this for free isn't good, but they won't miss a beat, and in some ways I'd argue, with the right replacement, will be an upgrade. TAA is a great footballer, but he has no position. Not a very good fullback, his positioning is poor. Not a very good winger, he's too slow. Not a great defensive mid either. A 'proper' fullback will make Liverpool a more complete side, even if we miss his dead ball prowess and great crossing. I'd also look to sign a leftback too. Kerkez seems perfect, but he has other suitors.

 

One more point to make before this post starts to bore everyone. Goalkeeper is an issue. I think the club may look to sell Alisson, as crazy as that sounds. Mamardashvili won't want to ride the pine, and signing him then loaning hm out again seems mad. So what will they do? If I were sporting director I'd also look to shift Nunez if they can find a buyer. Use the Alisson and Darwin money to find a proper number 9

[Jason]

I'm guessing the reason he doesn't rotate is cause he doesn't trust his bench. Few of his own players in this summer should change that you'd think.

[smokeless6]

Yes, agreed. But I think the first eleven was burning out having played so much. I don't advocate this just to get playing time for seldom-used players, but to keep the first choice fresh. They've played 52 matches so far. And also, he needs to run these players out now and then to see what he's got, to better assess whether to keep or dump. Training reveals much, but competitive matches do too.

 

We will see whether he is able to bring in some targets. Will be interesting to see who he identifies. I mentioned Kerkez and I expect an offer soon. Need another right back to replace TAA unless he pulls a u-turn. His head's been turned and I think he is gone, but Liverpool are a top side too. Backup keeper needed if Allison and Kelleher go. Striker. Give the man some funds and let him reshape the squad. Liverpool should be an attractive destination at this point. We shall see.

[Jason]

I would not be super shocked if TAA does a u-turn honestly. Madrid is an absolute circus and Liverpool's his boyhood club and competing for the league, but we'll see.

 

Pool are like a lot of clubs right now in that they are desperate for a number 9. This summer will be VERY interesting as teams compete to sign the very few available. I think and hope we'll stay out of the battle for the big names up top, we're heavily linked with Cunha and Delap (both, not signing just one) for our forward options and I think both of those could be a decent bit of business. Delap might not be the answer long term but he's a proven PL goal scorer and relatively affordable due to his release clause. We've spent a lot more on a lot worse in the past. Beyond that for us we're desperate for a keeper obviously, but we could do with a midfielder or two, a fullback or two and maybe a centrehalf. How many of those we'll actually get I have no idea lol.

[smokeless6]

I think you'll make an offer for Delap for sure. He has a 30m release clause and that's probably a bargain

 

ESPN recently ran a keep or dump article for United's squad and it made for interesting reading. I think United need players all over the pitch, but you can't overhaul the entire squad in one window. They will be mentioned in every transfer rumor, but need to get it right. And do so for three windows on the bounce

Edited April 30 by smokeless6

[TheSantader25]

Man our players looked dead by the end. what a brutal three weeks of football it has been. And now another injury with Kounde. I hope Balde is available for second leg because our left side is dead without him. The funny thing is the lack of Lewa is hurting us even in the set pieces since he always comes back to defends and helps a lot on those as well.

What a game tho. With Enrique and Pep I was always worried when we were behind but with this system we always turn up our suicide football even more when we are behind and suffocate the opposition further which is why we've had so many comebacks from large deficits this season. As I suspected Inter and their efficiency will be one of the worst match ups for us and i think they will be happy with this draw. amazing game of football though but Flicks high line gives me a heart attack every time. I age a lot during every big game with this high line.

for second leg considering out players are dead we have no choice but to rest players this weekend. I would like to be more optimistic but I feel like we are not the favorites to go and get a win at San Siro with our fatigue and injuries tho i'm absolutely proud of what this team has shown this season and anything can happen. So let's see.

Edited April 30 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

Awesome game to watch, two really good teams going at it with tons of quality in attack.

 

Impossible to predict the second leg, could go either way for me.

[smokeless6]

United's march to the Champion's League continues. 3-nil and 72% of the ball. Football eh?

 

 

[Jason]

One of those games where it just, over about 20 minutes, fell into our hands and we made no mistakes and took our chances.

 

They're always a tough game, they always have a good squad and they've played us off the park once or twice in the few times we've played them and I thought they started very well. But a goal against the run of play from a bit of magic from Maguire and then the pen and red card which made the entire stadium and team lose their heads and they just collapsed in the first half. The second half we could've gotten one more I think but given that I would have been happy with a draw going into the match to come away with a 3-0, with minutes in the legs of Shaw, Mount and especially Amad? Really the night couldn't have gone any better for us.

 

I feel for Athletic Bilbao a bit cause it was one of those where it just collapsed for them over 10-20 minutes, their fans were in disbelief in the ground, which honestly I think the players felt too, I don't think it helped them. But yea from our PoV? Great night.

[Eutyphro]

United were big time lucky with how the game went. I can imagine Bilbao feeling robbed concerning the Garnacho handball. It was disappointing for the game to become 10 vs 11 so early for anyone who is in any way neutral. I prefer United win, but wish to have seen a better more equal game. But yeah, Spurs vs Man U final, can go either way and hard to predict.

 

If United get CL next season with this route then I'd be happy with it. Maguire channeling prime Garrincha was also a sight to behold. One of the most unexpected things this week in European football, along with Dumfries absolutely wrecking Barça and being a toelength offside away from 4 goal contributions in one semifinal. It was another truly epic Harry Maguire night of football.

Edited May 2 by Eutyphro