...::[The Footy Desk]::... (Part 2)

[Eutyphro]

There was never any issue with ETH's tactics at Ajax, cause he didn't have players signed for 70 million euros coming back from vacation not motivated, and likely overweight, playing absolutely sh*t like Casemiro, or Rashford who the squad has to be built around but doesn't perform. He did not have to deal with players with big egos. I think ETH is out of his depth when it comes to that. It requires another kind of coach. So I think I fundamentally have a different reading of what happened. If your entire squad is built around a misfiring mediocre player like Rashford it is going to destroy morale. I think another type of coach might have been better at dealing with Rashford and his mediocre performances, would have stimulated him better. At Ajax you don't have egos that big. It's a different ballgame.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

There was never any issues with ETH's tactics at Ajax because 1) he had players made for his tactics and 2) it was Ajax in the Dutch league.

 

At United he never had those players, as evidenced when he tried to play out from the back with De Gea in his first season which he very quickly changed. He's also managing in the Premier League where even the worst team in the league has 100m/year to spend on players.

 

He tried to play a system with players not suited to it, if his system would even work at this level. We'd press really high with our front 4 and leave massive gaps between our pressing front 4 and back 4, leaving our midfield exposed. It was basically very high risk / high reward stuff and despite the fact it never worked he never really moved away from it in the past year and a half or so.

 

Again, he has no really to blame but him self. He got backed with a lot of money, had a lot of control over the signings and was given 2 and a half years, even when sacking him in the summer would've been very justifiable.

[Eutyphro]

ETH's tactical identity is built around Frenkie de Jong who was not willing to come. I think he fundamentally missed quality in midfield to make his tactics work consistently. You'd hope players like Kobbie, Casemiro, Ugarte coming in, could have made it work, but it never did. The only player with a very similar tactical profile to Frenkie I can think of is probably Kovacic, or this season actually Gravenberch now that I think of it. A holding mid with top level technique and who can make a dribble that opens up play. But it's pretty inflexible to need someone like that to be able to play good football. That's a fair criticism of ETH tbh

Edited October 28, 2024 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

FDJ wouldn't have done anything for us. He's good at taking the ball deep in midfield, absolutely, but you still need good players around him suited to that style of play and we've never had that, even with signings ETH has made.

 

We are built to be a more direct team, with players like Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund, Amad and especially Bruno, whose playstyle has always been about taking risks and creating chances hence why he creates the most chances in the league.

 

The gaps in the team are staggeringly big and that's on ETH, and why he kept setting the team up like that I will never know. I ultimately don't think he's good enough for the a big PL club, for similar reasons why I think Ange at Spurs isn't either.

[Eutyphro]

Ajax's tactical identity under ETH was total madness and I am ultimately not completely surprised he has not been able to reproduce it, though the vast money United has available for transfers made me think originally that he could succeed. The tactic fundamentally was to let Frenkie drop into defence and open up play with dribbles and passes. Frenkie dropping so deep and creating from there pulled opposition out of position. You talk about Casemiro swimming, and Frenkie is a unique type who likes to swim in such vast space in midfield. He can thrive in that. Giving the opponent so much space and letting Frenkie lure them out of position, combined with a press that is extremely agressive, was an absolutely mad tactic that I could not believe when my eyes saw it. I couldn't understand how effective it was. It was really bold. But yeah, at United that never came together. Now they need someone else who imo has to kick their ass and bring in immediate results, and the coach that I think about when I say that is Conte.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

Hiring some manager just cause he would shout at everyone, in 2024, would be a terrifying appointment. Conte would be a disaster waiting to happen.

 

The Sporting manager sounds like the fan favourite at the moment but I'm not sure he'd come mid-season. Beyond that, Potter will get linked due to being a free agent plus his ties to Dan Ashworth. There were also reports only a few days ago that the board had been talking to Xavi, whose wife posted a coincidental picture of him and their kid, who was wearing a United shirt, lol. Could be muppetry, but with the reports it's possibly they've spoke.

 

There's no name that is realistic that screams out to me tbh, it's not much different than the summer.

[TheSantader25]

ETH had enough money to buy the players he wanted and yet he made poor choices trying to do something that just didn't work without adapting. I think he can still succeed under other circumstances in other clubs but he needs to go to a middle tier club i think.

[Eutyphro]

7 minutes ago, Jason said:

Hiring some manager just cause he would shout at everyone, in 2024, would be a terrifying appointment. Conte would be a disaster waiting to happen.

I get where you are coming from, but this group has gotten so many people sacked that they need it. I don't think many managers are up to the task of getting this weak morale group back on their game. A dream coach for a modern top club is a guy like Nagelsmann. But I couldn't imagine him succeeding with this group. This group needs a cynical coach to get results. An optimist with attacking attractive football will crash like ETH did. What they also fundamentally need is someone with the balls to put Rashford in his place.

 

Hopefully Ruud pulls off a miracle somehow, cause the names you mention are no good for United right now in my opinion.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

I don't think shouty managers who play terrorball will have the impact on a modern squad that they maybe had 10-15 years ago. There's a reason why Mourinho is in Turkey and Conte has struggled in the past several years. Their management is basically "work really hard and do what I say or else", but the problem is players will call their bluff on the "or else" cause that's not how they want to play.

 

At this level, at a club like United, people want to play something more progressive, with a manager who has good relationships with his players. A bit of fire here and there is fine but yea, has to be someone more modern than one of the mid to late 2000's dinosaurs.

[Eutyphro]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

At this level, at a club like United, people want to play something more progressive, with a manager who has good relationships with his players. A bit of fire here and there is fine but yea, has to be someone more modern than one of the mid to late 2000's dinosaurs.

Yeah, sure, but to play something 'progressive' you need a quality and coherence in midfield that United doesn't have. And I think the players and their qualities are a large part of why that midfield has kept flopping. They need results with what they have tbh

[Jason]

It's true we don't have a lot of good on the ball players in midfield, but it's also true that a lot of our problems in midfield stem from the openness of ETH's setup and the absurdly high press.

 

When I say progressive I don't mean tika taka, United historically are a direct team and our strengths with the current squad are also direct, but it's about picking your moments. We need to be able to control games when possible, be it a full game or in moments, and we also need to be able to break shape and attack at speed. In that sense we're not awfully equipped for this and our best performances have been when we're able to pull a performance like this together. However under ETH in his 2nd and 3rd season he set the team up a lot that exposed it's weaknesses and not it's strengths.

 

Multiple managers have done jobs on ETH's setup, some of them have openly spoken about how we play and how to exploit it. Since the start of the second season he's, tactically speaking, been one of the absolute worst managers in the league and that's really just on him.

[smokeless6]

I'm hearing Thomas Frank is the target. I said a couple months ago it would be Southgate.

 

The Ineos chapter is off to a poor start, and this decision is a big one they must get right. Could Ruud pull a Solksjaer? A string of good results and he gets the full-time job?

 

Pivotal moment for United, and they really cannot afford to get it wrong again.

 

I think the assessment of Ten Hag comes down to him just being out of his depth, not well-suited for managing on this level. Not tactically astute, not a great man-manager, not good with recruitment decisions, and too eager to count the excuses, all the forces acting against him and the team. Officials, injuries, VAR, players, the weather, the pitch. Never once do I recall him saying something like 'I got it wrong', but maybe he has. He was given a very long leash and should have no complaints.

 

 

[Jason]

Scratch all that, we're in for the Sporting manager. We're ready to pay the fee and he's ready to come apparently.

 

Moving quick then.

[smokeless6]

Amorim? Could do worse, but he has a short track record for an appointment like this, but has done well with Sporting, including two league titles and cup win

 

Nearly was Moyes' replacement but the deal fell through.

 

Intriguing appointment if he comes.

Edited October 28, 2024 by smokeless6

[Eutyphro]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

Scratch all that, we're in for the Sporting manager. We're ready to pay the fee and he's ready to come apparently.

 

Moving quick then.

Is he gonna make it to a third season? We can start our bets.

[Jason]

This Ballon d'Or drama lol.

 

Embarrassing from the Madrid players. Vini Jr's had an amazing year, but Rodri also has and won the Euros.

[TheSantader25]

I've genuinenely never seen bigger crybabies than these guys. Why are they acting like it's some big unfair robbery? It's embarrassing how entitled they are. How can you have this many awards and trophies and still act like a small club?

[Jason]

For the past 20 years or so it's been the "best player in Spain" award and they cry the moment someone outside La Liga gets recognition. It's just embarrassing.

 

Rodri won the Premier League, Euros and went 74 games unbeaten with City. He's won 8 trophies since the start of 2023. International wins have always been the most influential part of these awards, look at Haaland last year, a ton of goals and the treble, didn't win cause Messi won the World Cup.

 

Rodri is the best nidfielder in the world and his injury is why City's title challenge this season has any semblance of doubt.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, smokeless6 said:

The Ineos chapter is off to a poor start, and this decision is a big one they must get right. Could Ruud pull a Solksjaer? A string of good results and he gets the full-time job?

 

Pivotal moment for United, and they really cannot afford to get it wrong again.

At the very least they got an actual footballing structure now. It's Dan Ashworth in the board, not Ed Woodward lol. So I'd expect a difference.

 

Kinda like how Milan kept changing managers and preserving bad players until Elliott introduced a proper structure with Maldini and Moncada. And the improvement didn't happen instantaneously. We wrongly appointed Giampolo before Pioli, who didn't hit right at first (especially after we lost to Atalanta 5-0), but then he was a success for his next three full seasons until he ran out of gas (even then he still somehow made us finished second last season, I'm still questioning how).

 

The same happened to our rival too. Inter was a mess until they took former Juventus football director Beppe Marotta. The street will never forget Icardi-era Inter; and that one time they finished 4th in EL group against Southampton, Sparta Prague, and Hapoel Be'er Sheva.

 

I'm not overly optimistic though, because if I have to honestly rant, the astronomical pressure on United is the bigger challenge. I swear I've seen that Fabrizio Romano has more posts dedicated to slander United than any other club. And these so-called "legends" are only there to mock the club while preaching the importance of mental health. At this point the media circus feels so ridiculous and sinister.

[Jason]

13 minutes ago, One of Wisemen said:

I swear I've seen that Fabrizio Romano has more posts dedicated to slander United than any other club.

 

Romano is part transfer reporter and part paid shill these days. He's quite obviously being used by various PR firms/agencies to improve the public image of various players, including Mason Greenwood.

 

He's a twat.

[Eutyphro]

23 hours ago, smokeless6 said:

Could Ruud pull a Solksjaer? A string of good results and he gets the full-time job?

 

I don't consider Ruud a bad coach from what I have seen of him, and I think he deserves a chance. But if a really good candidate comes he will probably have to go aside.

 

As for the Ballon D'or drama, it's embarrassing. I think Rodri deserves it. I think they made a good pick.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

We're paying the release clause for Amorim, Sporting have confirmed. Could be done before the game the weekend vs Chelsea it looks like, Ruud will be in charge at least for tomorrow's game against Leicester.

 

And yea, the Ballon d'Or is not taken very seriously in England for various reasons but Rodri is a deserving winner. Vini Jr was a standout candidate too no doubt, but it's no surprise an award that has always heavily favoured international success voted Rodri as the winner.

[smokeless6]

If he takes the job, this could be an astute appointment, despite Amorim's short career on the touch line. His effect on Sporting was immediate, won the league for the first time in like twenty years in his second or third year. Added another later. That sort of transformation is exactly what United need. But there are many pitfalls.

 

The most glaring of which is Amorim likes to play three at the back, which doesn't mean he would do so at United, at least directly. But if he does want to play this way it will mean a massive shuffle in the playing staff, because otherwise you'd have too many of this position and not enough of that position, and pounding square pegs in to round holes rarely works. So a new gaffer who wants to play a different formation would lead to another squad overhaul with the club that has spent more than any other team in the past few years. Round and round we go.

 

Signing Amorim would also mean he doesn't go to City to replace Pep, and I believe he was their choice. That's worth a lot to the red half right there.

 

As for the Ballon, I think everyone who snubbed it looks petulant and sad. Vini looks like a cry baby. Only one man can win it, every year there are deserving players left out. To pout about it is poor form. Vini will get his.

 

[Jason]

We're actually not in a bad position to play central defenders at all. We're suspiciously well equipped for it honestly, as if the board were happy to sign one more CB than we may have needed just incase this move happens as we talked to him in the summer. The main issue we have for his system is no natural and fit leftback.

[smokeless6]

I don't think it will be so seamless. They have the players to fill out that formation now, yes, but you need double that number. If you play three centerbacks, you need six centerback in your squad. The fullbacks will need to be sold, unless you want to make wingers out of Shaw and Dalot, which I don't think is a good solution, or have them play in a back three. United can run out a fine 3-4-3 with current personnel, but they don't have the cover for multiple games, competitions, injuries, suspensions and poor form. It is going to require an overhaul again of half the squad in my view. Three windows again to transform the team in the new manager's image.

 

Time will tell I reckon.

 

The appointment has been made official and he starts in a week or two.

[Eutyphro]

This move is so quick that they likely had him lined up before they actually sacked ten Hag. I know nothing about this guy so I'm interested how he'll do.

[smokeless6]

Well I think he was on many clubs' radars. He was a finalist for replacing Klopp too, but Liverpool went with Slot, reportedly due to the fact that while they were in negotiations, Amorim flew to meet with West Ham, which Liverpool saw as a power play to force their hand so they pulled out and signed Slot. I believe, as I said, that City wanted him to replace Pep. This could be an inspired appointment, the best hire in the post-Fergie era, or it could all implode too I guess. But my money's on this working out. Amorim is reportedly a really cool cat and his players love him, he communicates well, is humble and the players respond to him. All that is swell and good, and points to a bright future and a good decision to hire him, but results on the pitch are all that matters in the end so it will be interesting to see how it goes. I would have preferred if United had bungled it again quite frankly. But my gut says this time they got it right.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, smokeless6 said:

If you play three centerbacks, you need six centerback in your squad.

 

De Ligt, Martinez, Yoro, Maguire, Lindelof and Evans. Not saying they're all gonna be here next season, but we do indeed have six centrebacks.

 

1 hour ago, smokeless6 said:

The fullbacks will need to be sold, unless you want to make wingers out of Shaw and Dalot, which I don't think is a good solution, or have them play in a back three.

 

They'd play wingback. Dalot is fine in that position, he's been very good over the past 2 years. Leftback is the issue due to fitness.

 

We'll of course have to recruit for him, that happens with every new manager for every club, but we do have the squad to be able to play a 343 formation when he arrives.

 

1 hour ago, Eutyphro said:

This move is so quick that they likely had him lined up before they actually sacked ten Hag.

 

Yep. Tapping up is one of those things where it's officially against the rules but if you're not doing it you're gonna be chasing shadows.

[smokeless6]

Maguire, Lindelof and Evans will not be there next year I don't think, so that's three. Time will tell.

[Eutyphro]

If this Amorim guy tends towards playing a back three then Liverpool did well picking Slot over him. Slot is a very natural follow up to Klopp in terms of playing style I think.

 

But yeah, bets are on how long this Amorim guy is gonna last. But if all those clubs were tracking him then he's probably good. And considering he's southern European he does also fit the mould of a more tactical coach that I argued United needed.

 

I am not entirely sure a back three is the best fit for centerbacks like de Ligt and Martinez. I've seen de Ligt struggle in that system, which is why he ended up benched in the national team, cause he did not fit in the back three we played, specifically the right centerback position. I also think Martinez lacks a bit of pace for being a left centerback in a modern back three system.

 

What's also kinda stupid is I think Wan-Bissaka is a better fit for such a system than Mazraoui. Ah well, we'll see. I think all modern footballers should know how to play in such a system, and only time will tell if that will be successful. After all I argued they needed a Conte type, and Conte is also a back 3 style coach, and his Chelsea was massive in popularizing the back 3 in modern football.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Eutyphro