...::[The Footy Desk]::... (Part 2)

[Eutyphro]

Difference being Barca lost only 1-2, and don't have the money to fire their coach.

 

4-0 behind now, they should bring on the great Lingardinho.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Eutyphro

[Lonely-Martin]

Oof, 4!

 

This'll hurt United so much and I really fear playing them so soon after. This could be a rugby scoreline if United don't park up 2nd half.

[Lonely-Martin]

35 minutes ago, Jason said:

Reckon there's a slim chance both United and Spurs will have new managers when they meet next week. More chance Spurs do than United knowing the Glazer's right now but the inevitable is coming for Ole.

 

Trouble for us, we're just Spurs, lol. No one wanted it in the summer and that'll not change. Any potential incoming manager knows Kane is off and that'll hamper plans plus we've got a load of squad players well past their best.

 

At least with United, it's United, you know? Ronaldo, Fernandes, Pogba and the pacy attackers. Players managers want to work with. We've got Sonny and an outgoing disinterested Kane. That's about it. 

 

Both teams are in a bad spot, but your lot is only a midfielder or 2 and some defensive coaching away. We're a whole team short, lol.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Lonely-Martin
Apologies for the double post. Hoped for a merge. :)

[TheSantader25]

Barca won't make top 4 with this form. Which is literally the only thing people expect from Koeman. The defensive organization is truly obnoxious. The players are scattered all over the field. I've seen better defending from Bilbao tbh.

[Halal Cyborg]

17 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

Ole x Koeman swap deal incoming.

Do you have to make every conversation about Barcelona? Jesus

[TheSantader25]

1 minute ago, Halal Cyborg said:

Do you have to make every conversation about Barcelona? Jesus

Pretty much everyone here mostly talk about the team they support. Jason talks about United. Lonely-Martin talks about Spurs and I mostly talk about Barca. Don't see what's wrong with that.

[Eutyphro]

6 minutes ago, Halal Cyborg said:

Do you have to make every conversation about Barcelona? Jesus

They just played El Clasico. This is the Footy Desk, not the English circle jerk thread.

 

Anyway, 0-5.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Eutyphro

[_Dirty_]

Salah is such a beast. I remember when some people called him a "one season wonder" lol.

[Halal Cyborg]

On 10/16/2021 at 10:46 PM, Halal Cyborg said:

True but Liverpool could wallop a number of teams by the same scoreline.

[Girish]

Pretty decent from Liverpool to not score any goals for 30 mins after the red card... none of us wants Ole to get sacked.

[smokeless6]

Yeah, they mostly played it across the back for the last half hour.

 

That was the performance and result I hoped to see, but never thought I would. I saw that this was the first time in the history of Old Trafford that the away side led 4-nil. Historic!

 

But yeah, Soklsjaer's out of his depth, and has been from the start, it seems pretty obvious and always has. But any win seems to be viewed as 'his methods finally taking root'. Arsenal have exactly the same phenomena. Arteta is being sacked after each loss, but if they win, the flowers of his vision are taking bloom. Each loss is catastrophic, each win validating. It's as though critical analysis is impossible for these clubs, it's all about emotion and perception.

 

I mean any club that would let Ed Woodward run the football side for so long is clearly incapable of critical self-analysis.

[Jason]

The sack is definitely coming I think. He may get another game or he may not, but the players are turning, the journalists are being briefed about board level talks about his position etc.

 

It's an old fashioned case of there's no smoke without fire. I think the only reason it isn't done yet is  they probably haven't decided on who to replace him with, Conte's name is getting thrown around a lot but I think they're worried about another Mourinho type appointment.

[Eutyphro]

14 minutes ago, Jason said:

but I think they're worried about another Mourinho type appointment.

Which is silly, because they need a top coach to work with high profile players like Cristiano and Pogba, and it will probably be a famous coach, just like Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea, all the best Premier League teams have famous coaches. These Man Utd legends are all going "we don't want Conte, because Man United doesn't hire famous coaches. cause we're different", and I have to say, sorry, you're not different.

Reading back our previous page discussion, it was overly focused on which players were starting, and though this is an interesting issue, Solskjaers failure has much more to do with getting the team to really play as a collective than anything else. In the Liverpool game we saw Liverpool, a real team, against a loose group of players following individual whim. The fact that there is no coherent strategy is why Solskjaer has to go, because that is a total failure of his resposibilities.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

4 minutes ago, Eutyphro said:

Which is silly, because they need a top coach to work with high profile players like Cristiano and Pogba, and it will probably be a famous coach, just like Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea, all the best Premier League teams have famous coaches.

 

Yep. Gary Neville is trying to bat for keeping Ole and not wanting another Mourinho appointment and every fan and Jamie Carragher was like ??????????????????.

 

Few months ago I said I'd want Rodgers and not Conte but given the signings we made in the summer we need someone to grab this squad by the back of the neck and tell them what to do or they can f*ck off and Conte's the man for that.

[Eutyphro]

The moment to change is now when you are 8 points behind, not by the time it is 25 points behind. They need to get Conte, or someone else good, asap if they are ambitious.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Eutyphro

[smokeless6]

With apologies to the United supporters here....

 

United are paying the price of putting perception ahead of pragmatism. It's the disaster of employing Ed Woodward for so long, or at least giving him the keys to the sporting side, manifesting itself in mediocrity.

As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of clubs in English football that seem to be incapable of critical self-analysis, such as Arsenal, who are about to sack Arteta after each loss, but will see the flowers of his vision bloom with each victory.

United though are in a league of their own. Woodward is/was a distinctly terrible director of football, or whatever his title is/was. His transfer policy has been disastrous, handing out suicidal contracts and extensions, getting it all wrong in terms of recruitment, timing, costs and at least displaying a modicum of competency.

His expertise, if it is indeed, is in the marketing side of football, and it's difficult to suggest he has not been successful there. But why they entrusted him with the sporting side is a mystery, and this United side are a reflection in whole of Woodward's mismanagement and ineptitude.

Players like McTominay, Fred, Martial, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof and Luke Shaw are not the level of player needed in a starting eleven for a side with domestic and European title aspirations. Good players, on their day, but not starter-level for an elite club. Would any of those players get a match at City, or Liverpool or Bayern or PSG? United still have Phil Jones on the books! And Mata (who I like but can't get a game) and Matic. These players cost a small fortune to keep around and never play.

He overpaid for De Gea's renewal, clear then, and clearer now. Good keeper, but he's on 375k per week! Allison's on 150 by contrast. Sancho's on 350k and can't get a sniff. And what about van de Beek? Woodward paid 35 million for him and he never plays. There's no common vision here, just buy the names and the rest takes care of itself.

Except it doesn't, clearly. And then there's Solksjaer himself, overmatched from the beginning, but can anyone at the club (aside from the playing staff) actually see this? This has always felt like a nepotistic appointment, one of the boys, who had success and by extension would just carry it to the club like success is a commodity, his glittering past overcoming tactical naivety and the inability to inspire top players. He was managing Molde for a reason. If you have little tactical nous, and are not a man-manager, what is it you bring? That's right, he brought the treble with that goal 30 years ago.

Cavani hardly gets a start, Pogba is a shadow of his potential under Ole, Rashford's always out wide, Maguire's overrated, and their midfield is below the required standard. Yet the squad has cost a fortune, with results that in no way reflect the enormous outlay. It all looks disjointed from here, not that I'm complaining, mind

[Eutyphro]

I think the issue on right back is particularly funny. They have Wan-Bissaka who is technically inept, and his touch and passing are terrible, but defensively he's a monster, and they have Dalot, who's technically very good, but we saw against Villareal, defensively shocking. Wan-Bissaka and Dalot are pretty much each others opposites, both excellent, and godawful in some respects. Honestly. I think Dalot has more future, as the offensive capability is more important in modern football. I'm interested what Conte could do with this squad and with playing a back three. I think much better things than we are seeing.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Eutyphro

[Halal Cyborg]

Koeman is gone

[Eutyphro]

It seems it was unavoidable, as he was being attacked by media, supporters, for a while the people leading the club. If you lose games like that 1-0 then you've gotten to a point where it seems like this has mentally affected players, and they're not performing and fighting for the result, and then the coach has to go. If the coach is unable to lead the group the only way is out.

I'm interested what coach they will be going for though. There's a pretty select group of coaches that seem qualified for the job, and I think none will be available, or affordable. I'm thinking of people like Luis Enrique, Emery, Lopetegui, maybe even Benitez lol, though he's from Madrid so I guess not. They need an experienced Spanish coach. I think Luis Enrique is the most obviously qualified coach, but I don't think they will get him. I think a coach you might not think of who has the right qualities is Mancini. The football Italy played at the Euros is pretty much how Barcelona should play. Ten Hag is also clearly qualified, but he'd have to be mental to want to go. I think for the phase they are in they are probably better off getting someone who is not a foreigner. What seems the case though is that they can barely even afford firing Koeman, let alone any of these top coaches who could make bank at a top team.

What seems likely is that they will go for Xavi, which I don't expect to be success as I don't think a completely unproven coach will be up to that job. We've seen it succeed with Zidane at Madrid, but he had an incredible squad, and Barca don't. The Barca job is very hard, as there's a large discrepancy between the quality of the squad and the expected result, and it takes a coach who is sort of a genius to deal with that. I think Xavi will fail like Pirlo failed at Juve, and it makes me sad, mostly because Frenkie is my favorite player, and I don't enjoy seeing him play at a club that is in such a mess. Xavi will likely be a massive downgrade from Koeman to be honest. But I could be proven wrong and he turns out a coaching genius. We can't tell.

Koeman himself is a really respected coach in the Netherlands, and regardless of whether he can now get a good job outside of his country, he'll land a top job in Dutch football easily.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Eutyphro

[TheSantader25]

Xavi seems inevitable. There's simply no one else available who could have the balls to accept this Barca side. But once again it's a very risky choice which could end up horribly. We'll see.

 

But I am certain that Koeman had to go. The team's organization both in defense and attack has been horrible from the start of the season. The organization of the team is more important than individual quality and Barca wasn't showing any of it. I barely could find positive things about this team this season no matter how hard I tried. Koeman was trying but it was just not working. He wasn't the man for this team IMO and the change had to happen unfortunately.

 

Managing Barca is the hardest job any manager can accept. Not just this Barca, but even when we had a good squad, I think it was the hardest. This is the only place where you are required to win trophies, play beautiful football and develop young talent all at the same time. Literally everywhere else winning trophies is enough.

 

I respect Koeman for accepting us in such a f*cked up situation. This was without a doubt the most volatile Barca I've seen in years. Every day, I woke up reading more bullsh*t unrelated stuff to football about the team that would cause controversy. It's obvious that the team can't function properly in such environment. Given Koeman's controversial nature as well, it was a match made in hell. It could only end up badly. He will always be a Barca legend and I think if somehow a miracle happens and these youngsters pave the way for a better Barca, Koeman's role shouldn't be forgotten.

[Jason]

Yea after the way Koeman has been treated and given the state of the squad, the only person you're getting to manage this squad is someone with a very close connection to the squad who also probably can't turn it down.

 

It's a bit like all those top managers turning down United after Fergie retired and us ending with Moyes, who in their right mind wants to take over Barca after Messi left?

[Eutyphro]

I think they were actually quite alright in possession whenever I saw them. Some things like Luuk de Jong in the 532 were just absolute flops of the highest degree though. I don't think there were no positives of what Koeman was doing, but the team just could not cope with the level of expectation, or mentally overcome Messi leaving. I think how Koeman has been treated, considering his club legend status, and also by the media, has been shocking. But it's over now, and everyone can move on from it.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Eutyphro

[Jason]

1 minute ago, Eutyphro said:

I think how Koeman has been treated, considering his club legend status, and also by the media, has been shocking.

 

It's one of the things I'm relatively happy to see, given the circumstances, with Ole's situation.

 

While he's getting stick from opposition fans and there's rumblings in the dressing room the United fans haven't turned on him at all. I'm constantly seeing appreciation for the job he's done in settling the ship and restoring some pride into the team, with fans simply acknowledging that he's taken the team as far as he can. When (if?) he goes he'll be receiving nothing but warm welcomes next time he comes to Old Trafford no doubt.

[TheSantader25]

Just now, Eutyphro said:

I think they were actually quite alright in posession whenever I saw them. Some things like Luuk de Jong in the 532 were just absolute flops of the highest degree though. I don't think there were no positives of what Koeman was doing, but the team just could not cope with the level of expectation, or mentally overcome Messi leaving. I think how Koeman has been treated, considering his club legend status, and also by the media, has been shocking.

I don't think the way we have played possessional football has been correct honestly. We are too slow in our transitions from defense to attack. The players do not make enough runs(barely at all) and the ball is circulating around very slowly. We are not positioning ourselves well at all. These are the managers job to correct. The less I say about defense the better.

[Eutyphro]

I think players that were good at making runs were injured and he simply had none. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle of our positions. I think some of the tactical criticism of what Koeman did you've been giving is fair, but I also think Koeman showed some half decent possession football under the circumstances he was in, and he did win the Copa Del Rey in 2021, so that's quite good.

At least Barca has some really great talent coming out of the academy, and Gavi is one of the finest young midfielders around. A really nice player. If they can hold onto their talents, have stable results, improve finances, and keep Frenkie from going, then they would be doing well.

[TheSantader25]

@Eutyphro

 

I do think the football we were playing at the second half of last season was quite good. But everything went downhill when we lost that game to Granada which could bring us the La Liga title. It was a huge choke and the team didn't recover from it.

 

I do think Koeman could do a lot in a team that has good wingers. He's very reliant on the individual ability of his wingers in my opinion. If he came to Barca in 2016, who knows? Maybe things could be different. But this Barca? Nah. It's not working. We need a different coach.

[smokeless6]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

I'm constantly seeing appreciation for the job he's done in settling the ship and restoring some pride into the team

 

I have no doubt Ole will be warmly received at Old Trafford, but if this really is the general mood of the supporters I'm very surprised. Those weren't shouts of support I heard raining down at the half against Atalanta. Do the supporters really feel Solskjaer has restored pride at the club? I realize there's not a single voice, but is this the general mood among supporters? I don't think I'd be as gracious.

 

Xavi's appointment would feel very much like Solskjaer's. Former beloved player, managing a small club in a peripheral league, returns to restore glory past. Is he ready? Is he the right man? Does he have the experience, or the ability? Hard to say. Has a big name, which seems enough.

[Jason]

18 minutes ago, smokeless6 said:

I have no doubt Ole will be warmly received at Old Trafford, but if this really is the general mood of the supporters I'm very surprised. Those weren't shouts of support I heard raining down at the half against Atalanta. Do the supporters really feel Solskjaer has restored pride at the club? I realize there's not a single voice, but is this the general mood among supporters? I don't think I'd be as gracious.

 

The entire club was in disarray when Ole took over, out of touch management, a squad with no team spirit, a board who didn't have a clue what they were doing and we were god awful in the transfer window. Ole's brought back some good principles, going back to picking players with good mentalities over Di Maria style signings, restoring a team spirit and getting the fans back on aside.

 

There's always gonna be boos at half time/full time if it's a bad half or result, even Fergie wasn't immune to those, but Ole's still very well liked, he's just taken the team as far as he can.

[smokeless6]

I'll take your word for it, you're a supporter so you should know.

 

The word is that United are looking at Rodgers to replace Solskjaer.

 

As a Liverpool supporter I must admit I was not a fan during his time at the club. We did nearly win the league, but I thought him a bit of a clown really, didn't care for his methods, I guess you could say. Since leaving Merseyside though I'd also admit he's gotten his head down and gotten results. He's effective.

 

Football fans are so tribal though, and I expect there will be a large contingent of United supporters who reject him based on his Liverpool ties.

[Jason]

I've been a fan of the idea of Rodgers taking over for a while, I don't really think his Liverpool ties matter all that much as he wasn't there for that long and doesn't really have any long term affection from the fans, he was just a Liverpool manager pretty much.

 

As for Ole and the fans, that's how the situation is now anyway from what I've seen. It's why I'm a bit worried about the board dragging this out cause it could always turn ugly which would be a shame.