...::[The Footy Desk]::... (Part 2)

[TheSantader25]

Lyon have me really worried tonight based on last week's results. I f*cking hate that sh*tty 0-0 draw. It's been a long time since the last time Messi has shined in the knockout stages when we needed him. Hopefully this year is our year. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Tchuck]

I'd love for a Lyon victory. Would be super difficult, but hey, this Champions League has shown us to expect the unexpected.

[TheSantader25]

2 hours ago, Tchuck said:

I'd love for a Lyon victory. Would be super difficult, but hey, this Champions League has shown us to expect the unexpected.

Well the worst part is Lyon can go through without a victory. We have no other way but winning. That's why a 0-0 away draw sucks. I can't believe we had 25 shots and couldn't score. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by TheSantader25

[TheSantader25]

And there's that. Here's my prediction for the draw. 

 

Barcelona-Liverpool

Juventus-Man United

Tottenham-Ajax

Porto-Man City

 

It might be a weird prediction since no English teams face eachother but it's just what my senses are telling me. I'm especially thinking of a Liverpool draw for us. Btw they are the only English club Messi has yet to score against. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Crokey]

I'm still getting a sneaky that we're going to get Juve, either that Spurs.

 

I just hope we don't get Liverpool... just finished repairing the last team bus they trashed.

[Guest]

My prediction is:

Man United - Barcelona

Liverpool - Juventus

Man City - Tottenham

Porto - Ajax

 

It's been a while since the last time we played against Liverpool, sadly I think it might happen this time. With 4 teams a full English tie is very likely, I don't think we'll see the Manchester derby... And one team between Porto and Ajax will reach the semifinals.

But, as you know, I suck when it comes to predictions 

[Jason]

That Bayern team is done man. I know they've only just returned to the top of the league this season but Bundesliga's standard has plummeted since 2013 and, perhaps like PSG and Ligue 1, has made Bayern think they might be a bit better than they actually are. Competition domestically is key to success in Europe and those leagues just don't have it. Two months ago I believe it was Witsel who said that the PL is over rated and here we are something like 17-3 on goal difference against German teams this year, with four teams in the quarter finals once again. Feels like the Premier League might be about to hit another cycle like we did in the mid to late 2000's.

 

As for the draw I don't even know who I'd want. This year we've drew giant after giant in cups so I'm expecting Barca or Juve. I'm sorta hoping we don't see two all English ties because that's boring, though it's likely cause UEFA would like that a lot as it lessens the chance of an English team winning it :^)

 

Think everyone will be wanting Porto, Ajax probably too but they're a bit of a wildcard. Barca-City would be a juicy tie, so would Liverpool-Juventus.

[Crokey]

I'm just trying to imagine a Manc invasion of Madrid if it ever ended up as a City V United final... tasty.

[Tchuck]

@Jason I think you are completely right. sh*t, this past decade alone they've won what, 8 times? Sometimes ridiculously unchallenged, with margins of up to 25 points!

 

This makes a team complacent. You're only as good as the opposition you face. And there was none strong enough to seriously challenge them. So the few times they did face strong teams in Europe, they got shat on. PSG in France was the same. They even won the league by 31 points! 31! They could have lost the last 10 matches in the season, and still won the title. What sort of level of opposition is that?

 

The Serie A was also problematic in this, what with Juventus winning it 7 years in a row. But they've also not neglected to sign the right players, and take Europe seriously. And they face more opponents with European tradition than the teams in the Ligue 1 and the Bundesliga, with Milan and Inter having won it in recent years. Now with Ronaldo? Juventus is going all in. Whereas PSG signed Neymar...

 

At least in the BBVA, you had a core group of 4-5 teams that were always pretty strong, with 2 being super strong. They learned how to deal with strong teams. In the Premier League, ditto. Always a core group of strong teams.

 

With City in the hands of Pep, I think we'll see a good period of English teams going the distance in the Champions League, specially as Messi and Ronaldo age.

[TheSantader25]

Laliga teams may not have that many good players like the EPL but all of them right to the bottom play with their heart and soul. Especially they are highly motivated when they face Barca/Real and can always cause problems. They are always a threat to the top teams which is why Barca/Real should always be on their toes.

 

They have really outdone the premier league in the last 15 years in both UCL and Europa League. But it seems like their reign is slowly coming to an end. But still having 2 giant teams competing with each other every year(+Atletico are always a threat too) and their close rivalry makes the two teams to push hard as much as they can and ultimately they both will be hardened for the UCL. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

I mean the Premier League is famed for it's competitiveness from top to bottom, far more so than La Liga. Pep got a crash course in it during his first season here, you could tell he was kinda flummoxed by it then, he acknowledged it a fair few times as well. La Liga staying competitive in Europe is more so that Barca and Madrid have stayed so competitive, those two teams trying to out do each other has really kept them at the very top in Europe, plus, ya'know, Messi and Ronaldo. When it comes to the Europa League it's literally because the only English teams in the past 10 years or so to take it seriously are Fulham and United, United won it and Fulham got to the final. It's considered a chore over here for top 4/6 clubs.

 

The Premier League's top clubs have suffered from poor spending and average managers (who get no time). Pep was always going to get time at City to have a real go at the CL, Klopp's also had time, Poch is doing wonders and United this year is just pure self belief cause Ole's at the wheel. With PL money and the fact that these days Barca/Madrid can't really afford to cherry pick our stars without paying a massive fee, the Premier League teams might start cementing them selves as the dominant country in the CL. We're not there yet, but the groundwork is there, I can see City winning it either this season or the next my self.

 

[Lonely-Martin]

Great to have 4 in the quarters, it'd be epic if all the English teams avoid each other on tomorrow's draw and we locked out the semi finals, lol.

 

Not that I believe it'll happen, but never say never. I'm sure UEFA wouldn't enjoy that though.

[TheSantader25]

I believe Laliga teams have really been a level higher than EPL teams in terms of European performance in the past decade. Remember Sevilla beating Liverpool in Klopp's first season? Winning the europa league for 3 consecutive seasons,  Having two full madrid finals and Atleti being a strong force in the UCL in the past decade. EPL teams overestimated themselves for so long in comparison to Laliga teams. 

 

For so long they thought their top six can only be matched by Real/Barca but it was clear that they underestimated teams like Atleti/Sevilla and laliga as whole. Every team in laliga is difficult to beat. They can't keep up at the top and fight for points like in EPL but they all have a unique fighting spirit that I believe is the main reason the EPL has failed to shine in the past decade in UCL. But yeah right now English teams have rebuilt themselves and are stronger than ever. It's safe to say Real/Barca are the only teams that can keep up now and if they want they still can purchase their players because of their prestige which is is specifically more appealing to south American players but everything costs so much nowadays. 

 

In the end I have to add that Pep simply increases the quality of any league he's coaching at. He did it in Spain. He did it in bundesliga but they never figured it out and appreciated it despite winning the world cup and now he's doing it in England. The man just raises the bar wherever he goes and makes his rivals push more. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

The top Spanish teams have been better in Europe over the past decade there's no debating that, but when it comes to the overall strength of the league the Prem has always been better, this isn't even a controversial opinion really either, top managers including Pep have all pretty much said the same. You can and regularly do lose to anybody in the EPL. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in La Liga but it's one of the key reasons as to why the Premier League is so popular with fans worldwide, and one of the reasons why managers just tend to love it here. There Prem is pretty much renowned for it's "fighting spirit", it was that spirit that led to the PL being a force in Europe in the mid to late 2000's, teams simply couldn't match the physical side of our teams.

 

Not really sure about Pep increasing the quality of the league he's in either. Bundesliga declined under him, the Prem is no more competitive either. His 100 points record last season was hugely impressive but you've also got seasons like Arsenal's Invincibles, that season where Mourinho's Chelsea conceded 15 goals total in a season, or United winning three titles in a row on two occasions, or even Leicester's title winning season. It's a league full of competition and great achievements, Pep's had little to no influence on it. Fergie however...

[TheSantader25]

Of course. There's no debating on which league is more competitive. EPL easily takes the cake there. 

Though the title race is so different in the two leagues which makes it fun and varied for a lot of fans to follow both. The close rivalry between Real and Barca always makes fans follow their matches . In the EPL pretty much everyone flops(unless in rare seasons like City last year) and therefore mistakes are forgiven far easier. You can make up for what you screwed up in the past. In Laliga most of times(basically when Real Madrid and Barca are both competing, Madrid have been really sh*tty domestically recently though.) one single mistake means your funeral. The media shreds you into pieces for one single draw and you'll lose the title.  This was specially witnessed in 2013/14 when all top 3 Laliga teams were so close. That season was lit af. 

 

The fighting spirt of EPL teams was lost in in this decade IMO and that's exactly why I think they gave the crown to Spanish teams. But I can sense that it's back just like the old days. I'd like to add that smaller Spanish teams are also more of a bitch to play against away in the league in comparison to EPL teams. 

 

As for Pep, Bayern basically killed Bundesliga themselves. Constantly buying players from their rivals because they were cheaper led to destroying the league but Pep somehow managed to keep his players top form despite playing in a sh*tty competition. No denying that many bayern players started shining under him. Him and Jupp before him basically were one of the reasons for Germany's success in 2014 IMO. I can see him raising the bar and setting new standards for the EPL right now. He just brings a whole new class where ever he is coaching at. Though it's just my opinion. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

I don't think you watch much Premier League lol, that away fixture comment is nonsense. Teams have ran away with it all the time as well in the PL, especially in the Fergie days, it's not like everyone flops, just recently teams have struggled due to poor transfers and manager appointments. That said over the past decade or so it's been pretty competitive, no one has been able to retain the league since United (2006-2009) and that fighting spirit has went absolutely no where, as seen with Leicester winning the league cause that wasn't cause they had the best squad or anything.

 

And uh, nah I don't really agree that Pep has raised the quality bar of the league to any great extent. City's points total last season was incredible (personally I still think the Invincibles season is the GOAT season in the PL), and it looks like you'll need another 90 points again to be challenging for the title but eh. He's came at a time when Chelsea and United are stuttering due to being ran poorly and playing the manager merry-go-round, Spurs don't have the budget and Arsenal are Arsenal. City's only challenger this season (cause they had none last season) is Liverpool and they're the only team that's gave a manager time and invested well, and Klopp inherited a team far worse than City's as well. He benefited in the Bundesliga from Dortmund selling all their stars and playing merry-go-round with managers, the fact he couldn't follow up Jupp's sucess and win another CL title is a massive black mark as well.

 

If we're talking managers that have influenced the PL and raised the quality bar there's been only two since the PL began, Fergie and Mourinho. Pep might be in that group if he sticks around for a few years and really dominates, but it's too early to say yet.

[TheSantader25]

I actually watch the premier league more than La Liga. Because it obviously has more close matches for me to enjoy. I don't think your concept of fighting spirit is like what mine is. 

 

I think the EPL has been missing players like Ramos(funny how we had a debate about him before) that push the team to another level and that's why they failed in the Europe. It's not just about Ronaldo and Messi. EPL has been missing clinical players that turn up in the knockout stages and make differences. Players like Messi and Ronaldo aren't enough. You need to have a clinical squad in all your lines. United couldn't rebuild a good squad after Fergie. Chelsea couldn't do it after the Lampard/Terry/Cech/Drogba era. Liverpool have been down for a long time until Klopp came and Arsenal have been shambolic since 2005 . it's only now that I finally see worthy squads in Liverpool and City. These two teams have the firepower for a a UCL win. The other 4 are still far away.

 

And ehhhm. Bayern lost three semi finals to the best team of the year respectively. Real in 2014,Barca in 2015 and Atleti which were arguably the best team in 2016 despite Real winning the trophy. I don't blame it on pep. He had a lot of injuries to deal with as well. He was unlucky in Bayern but still was quite consistent. You can see how far further bayern fell without him. Even under Ancelloti. We're never gonna agree on Pep anyway. You're a United fan and I'm a Barca fan so... 

Right now let's just see if he can outdo himself in Barca(6 trophies in one year) and win 7.

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

19 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

I think the EPL has been missing players like Ramos(funny how we had a debate about him before) that push the team to another level and that's why they failed in the Europe. It's not just about Ronaldo and Messi. EPL has been missing clinical players that turn up in the knockout stages and make differences. United couldn't rebuild a good squad after Fergie. Chelsea couldn't do it after the Lampard/Terry/Cech/Drogba era. Liverpool have been down for a long time until Klopp came and Arsenal have been shambolic since 2005 . it's only now that I finally see worthy squads in Liverpool and City. These two teams have the firepower for a a UCL win. The other 4 are still far away.

While I wouldn't necessarily agree that PL teams have lacked Ramos type characters, speaking as a United fan we've had players like Herrera, Young, Ibra, Rooney, players who will do what they have to so they win, but for the most part I agree with that, especially when it comes to players of world class players of that type. Chelsea have struggled massively since Terry and Lampard left and Spurs and Arsenal have never had those types for a long time.

 

21 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

And ehhhm. Bayern lost three semi finals to the best team of the year respectively. Real in 2014,Barca in 2015 and Atleti which were arguably the best team in 2016 despite Real winning the trophy. I don't blame it on pep. He had a lot of injuries to deal with as well. He was unlucky in Bayern but still was quite consistent. You can see how far further bayern fell without him. Even under Ancelloti. We're never gonna agree on Pep anyway. You're a United fan and I'm a Barca fan so... 

Right now let's just see if he can outdo himself in Barca(6 trophies in one year) and win 7.

Bayern were comfortably the best team in Europe when they won the CL, with a world class squad. He was brought in to win CL's and he failed at that, domestic success with Bayern is expected and has been achieved by many worse managers than him. Bayern have declined since he left because they've bought poorly and relied on ageing players like Robben and Ribery, it's not really a sign that it all fell apart cause Pep left, teams of that size don't collapse because of a manager leaving.

 

I should add I don't think Pep is over rated or anything, I think what he did at Barca is overlooked because he inherited the players he did, but people forget he injected that style of play into them, developed Messi, forged a midfield partnership with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets (seriously most fans would never have heard of Xavi and Iniesta before Pep) and got rid of deadwood like Ronaldinho (!) and brought in key players like Dani Alves too. He's the best manager in the world at the moment, no question, but his influence on the quality of the Premier League simply isn't as big as you're saying.

[TheSantader25]

 You have to realize that Bayern sold Toni Kroos and Pep was unlucky with injuries. The thing about pep is that he improves a lot of his squad to their full potential. Players like Boateng, Thiago,... Have never been the same after pep left. Bayern players were at least "top class" back when he was there. His domestic success in Bayern is nothing to brag about. But the important thing is how he kept his players top form. Aging isn't the only reason bayern are suffering now. 

 

This is fairly noticeable in Barca and City as well. I don't think Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Fernandinho could even perform half of what they are doing now if it wasn't for pep. He has turned them into top players. Pedro was a monster in Barca and he was never the same after pep. He did the same to Busquets(who tf would count on a player like him other than pep?), pique, Alves, Messi as well. Xavi and Iniesta were well known midfielders before pep but they were alone.They won euro 2008 with Spain and were in the starting XI. With other players they shined even more. The thing about pep is that he just gets the best out of any player. Only Fergie did it this good IMO. perhaps he hasn't been "that" influential on PL yet but I simply think the PL quality currently wouldn't be the same if someone else was City's manager. I think Pep has raised the bar and if he stays people will notice it more. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Laker23]

Actually regret watching both legs of the Liverpool/Bayern game, if I would have known Bayern would be so timid I wouldn't have bothered. VVD is such a f*cking monster.

 

Looking forward to the draw. Expecting us to draw either Liverpool or Juventus, nothing more than a gut feeling. Expecting City to draw Porto and carry on their amazing run of getting good draws in comps this season.

[Jason]

30 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

 You have to realize that Bayern sold Toni Kroos and Pep was unlucky with injuries. The thing about pep is that he improves a lot of his squad to their full potential. Players like Boateng, Thiago,... Have never been the same after pep left. Bayern players were at least "top class" back when he was there. His domestic success in Bayern is nothing to brag about. But the important thing is how he kept his players top form. Aging isn't the only reason bayern are suffering now. 

 

This is fairly noticeable in Barca and City as well. I don't think Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Fernandinho could even perform half of what they are doing now if it wasn't for pep. He has turned them into top players. Pedro was a monster in Barca and he was never the same after pep. He did the same to Busquets(who tf would count on a player like him other than pep?), pique, Alves, Messi as well. Xavi and Iniesta were well known midfielders before pep but they were alone.They won euro 2008 with Spain and were in the starting XI. With other players they shined even more. The thing about pep is that he just gets the best out of any player. Only Fergie did it this good IMO. perhaps he hasn't been "that" influential on PL yet but I simply think the PL quality currently wouldn't be the same if someone else was City's manager. I think Pep has raised the bar and if he stays people will notice it more. 

Pep does tend to get the best out of players, but not every player. He's known to have alienated a fair few good players simply cause he didn't like them, Ibra being probably the most well known example. His man management style is great as long as you're in his good books, and awful if you're not. It's not like he's the only manager known for getting the best out of his players either, that's a skill all top managers have, Mourinho in particular is a name that springs to mind. The performances he'd get out of players was insane. Klopp's also being doing at Liverpool. Unlucky with injuries is meh, he was there for 3 years was it? Can't be using that as an excuse, not for a team like Bayern.

 

And no the PL would be just fine without him lol. The money in it, the prestige of it, the teams... It'd be just fine without him, and we'd probably see Liverpool, United, Chelsea etc still in the same position now if Pep never joined City. I mean, the greatest manager of all time left the league in 2013 and the only club that came out worse was the team he left. Great managers and squads are what win trophies but top clubs don't live or die by one manager, and leagues definitely don't.

 

Pep's a fantastic manager who absolutely has had an influence on modern football (tiki taka and it's derivatives), he just isn't going to influence the quality of a league in the way you suggest, certainly not the Premier League as it's top 4 (now top 6) nature breeds competition in and of itself.

[TheSantader25]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

Pep does tend to get the best out of players, but not every player. He's known to have alienated a fair few good players simply cause he didn't like them, Ibra being probably the most well known example. His man management style is great as long as you're in his good books, and awful if you're not. It's not like he's the only manager known for getting the best out of his players either, that's a skill all top managers have, Mourinho in particular is a name that springs to mind. The performances he'd get out of players was insane. Klopp's also being doing at Liverpool. Unlucky with injuries is meh, he was there for 3 years was it? Can't be using that as an excuse, not for a team like Bayern.

 

And no the PL would be just fine without him lol. The money in it, the prestige of it, the teams... It'd be just fine without him, and we'd probably see Liverpool, United, Chelsea etc still in the same position now if Pep never joined City. I mean, the greatest manager of all time left the league in 2013 and the only club that came out worse was the team he left. Great managers and squads are what win trophies but top clubs don't live or die by one manager, and leagues definitely don't.

 

Pep's a fantastic manager who absolutely has had an influence on modern football (tiki taka and it's derivatives), he just isn't going to influence the quality of a league in the way you suggest, certainly not the Premier League as it's top 4 (now top 6) nature breeds competition in and of itself.

Of course. Good managers get the best out of their players. But I think Pep does it to a very extraordinary level. More than a 100%. Just like fergie. And for the record, all managers have problems with certain players. Pep wants total control over his players(He once said only Messi can disobey him) and players like Zlatan with big egos won't be able to work with him. 

 

Of course the PL would be fine and still the best. I never suggested that it will die or have problems.  But I simply think the quality would be lower than it is now. 

[Jason]

46 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

Of course. Good managers get the best out of their players. But I think Pep does it to a very extraordinary level. More than a 100%. Just like fergie. And for the record, all managers have problems with certain players. Pep wants total control over his players(He once said only Messi can disobey him) and players like Zlatan with big egos won't be able to work with him. 

 

Of course the PL would be fine and still the best. I never suggested that it will die or have problems.  But I simply think the quality would be lower than it is now. 

You can not get on with a player or have long term plans for him and still be professional. Pep has a history of not doing that, though.

 

And again no the PL would be no different without Pep, City just wouldn't be as a strong lol. Like I said, the league having 6 clubs now who all push each other is what pushes the quality of the league up (and of course the TV money), Pep managing one of the those teams is IMO about the only influence he's had. Doing great things at City, but the other top 6 clubs will always seek to improve anyway because they'll miss out on CL, he's not single-handedly having any sort of influence in that regard.

 

Or let me put it another way, if Pep went to PSG would he improve the quality of that league? I very much doubt it. Leagues improve through competition, not one team or manager. A manager being successful in a competitive league, like Pep is doing, will obviously increase the quality of the league but that's not something unique to Pep.

 

I mean if you wanna talk about whose had the most influence on the PL and Europe in the past 2-3 years it's probably United lmao, we opened the floodgates with the insanely high transfer fees.

 

(no I'm not super serious about that last part lol)

Edited March 14, 2019 by Jason

[TheSantader25]

Managers can bring legacies and improvements to their league even of it's short term. Just look at the amount of PL teams that started using 3-4-2-1 after seeing Conte's success in Chelsea in the first season. 

 

Nothing can save Ligue 1 at this point. But I'm sure if Pep went to let's say Serie A he could definitely help them improve and go back to the glory days to "some extent". Pep isn't a magician.  He isn't the ONLY reason for improvement nor the only manager that can do it but he can definitely have an effect and one of the best that can have a type of effect like this. I still stand by my point that EPL has improved because of Pep. Not JUST because of pep. But pep is one of the reasons. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by TheSantader25

[Jason]

28 minutes ago, TheSantader25 said:

Just look at the amount of PL teams that started using 3-4-2-1 after seeing Conte's success in Chelsea in the first season. 

...Name some? Cause I mean a couple of teams from low down in the table used 5 at the back but that was happening before Conte. LVG experimented with 5/3 at the back at United and Poch has used it on and off as well. Conte was the first to have real success with a 3 at the back formation in the PL but it wasn't unheard of and it didn't exactly influence any one else lol, seeing as we're pretty much back to 4-3-3 across the board for the most part - which is actually a Mourinho influence funnily enough.

 

Anyway, like I said, competition is what increases the quality. Pep's a good manager who manages good teams and has success, so naturally he's part of that competition (in leagues that are competitive of course). He's part of why it looks like the PL is about to go through a competitive cycle, but if he wasn't here then the only team that wouldn't be where they are now is City pretty much. Certainly the idea that he could be singled out as a reason for the PL becoming competitive in Europe again is nonsense really.

[TheSantader25]

The 3-4-3 epidemic was short and didn't last long. Wenger was using it in the end of the 2016-17 season and the start of the next season. The Poch did as well but went back to his 4231. A couple of mid table teams like West Ham were doing it as well. Hull city and Stoke did it. Even Pep who is known for sticking to his 4-3-3 used it briefly as well. No one(except for Wenger) used it as regularly as Chelsea but 3-4-3 was on/off formation for many PL teams at that point. They used it every now and then unlike any season. 

 

There came a point in the next season(2017-18) when Chelsea, Arsenal, Stoke, Swansea, Tottenham, West ham, Everton, Bournemouth are all using it in the same fixture(fixture 5). Huddersfield, Southampton and even Mou's United joined them around the 14th fixture.

 

PL wasn't a stranger with the 3 at the back formation but it's insane to see how many teams were occasionally using it after Conte's success. Especially in the following season. Wenger got influenced the most. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by TheSantader25

[TheSantader25]

So draws in two hours... 

 

Two teams I don't want us to face. 

Tottenham because we already did it in the group stage and‌ Ajax because I don't want us to knock them out. Other than that I'm fine with anyone. 

[TheSantader25]

United here we come!

[Tchuck]

So here's the draws:

 

Ajax vs Juventus

Tottenham vs Manchester City

Manchester United vs Barcelona

Liverpool vs Porto

 

Of these, I can see Juventus and Liverpool moving forward without much difficulty. The other two are up in the air.

[TheSantader25]

United have one week to rest before facing us unless they tie with Wolves in FA cup but we have to face Atletico before facing United. That's a headache. The good news are Shaw, Young, Matic and Herrera all having 2 yellow cards. One more for each and they are out of the second leg in Camp Nou. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by TheSantader25