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...::[The Footy Desk]::... (Part 2)


Banks.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8986821/Diego-Maradona-died-suffering-cardiac-arrest-according-reports.html   Holy sh*t, quite unexpected. RIP, you crazy legend.

Nah, Jesus is staying at City.

The Champions League final in pictures   First Half     First Half interruption and half time entertainment     Second Half    

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Ronaldo is not a game changer and is above average, Jesus Christ. Portugal have been sh*t for the last seven years, the last good Portugal team Ronaldo played in was in 2006 and Ronaldo was still only young then. Ronaldo played bad three CL finals? Pretty sure Ronaldo was injured for two of them finals and was excellent in 2008. He's practically carried Madrid for the last six years and carried us on a lot of occasions.

 

Ronaldo vs Messi debate has been done to death but they are both legends to the game and will both go down with the greats. I admire both players but I admire Ronaldo more since he played for United and I saw him grow into the beast he is now. No player scores and get's that many assists in two top leagues for two historical clubs and be just above average. He's a legend, like it or not. Not sure why you hate him so much but w/e.

 

For a start Doc, he's not even a f*cking striker.

My opinion on Ronaldo is if there was no Messi, everyone with a brain would be saying he is probably the best player to ever play the game, and same for Messi if there was no Ronaldo, as it stands people are split. I would say that they are 2 of the top 5 footballers to ever play the game, top 2? debatable, personally I would say yes, mainly because I hold club form above international form. if Pele had come to Real Madrid, United or the like and done his business here then I feel there would be no debate one way or the other. But it was a different time, I feel comparing players from different eras is pure folly given the changes in football since.

 

Also who else here thinks that if Le Tissier in his prime was still around Southampton would have a title challenge on this year?

Edited by Flynny
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Ronaldo will be a legend based on his numbers alone; 289 goals in 277 appearances for his club in 6 years speaks for itself. No fanboyism needed to recognize that.

 

How about that Harry Kane, eh? He looks to be the real deal; pretty much skilled all around. He cannot be ignored for England at this point. They could do with a striker of his caliber. And the most exciting part, apart from his age, is he tends to perform at his best in the big games. Seems to have a great attitude as well.

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I'm not the biased one, sorry. You guys are blinded by fanboysm. I said he's an above average player. A very good and effective striker but he's not the kind of player that can carry a team nor be a game changer unless is well supported by the midfield. As soon as the midfield fails, like yesterday, or as soon as he faces a strong defence, he just becomes invisible. I've seen him doing this countless of times. For me that's not enough for someone that claims to be the best of all times, which is a bit of a ridiculous claim coming from someone that has never won anything with the national team. And no, Portugal hasn't always sucked. He played with some top class Portugal teams but he was never decisive like others were. And yes, if someone claims to be the best of all times I expect him to carry a whole team when needed. Exactly like I've seen many top stars of the past doing it.

 

Marcelo and James are more skilled and definitely more useful for the team (Isco too). That's what I meant. Without them RM just collapse and CR becomes useless. That's Ancelotti's fault of course.

I never mentioned Kroos, but since we are talking about RM midfield I guess it lost all the quality when they sold Di Maria and Alonso.

 

Resuming: top class player but far from being a football legend or a football genius.

It's not fanboyism, it's cold hard facts. By the way, his main position is on the left wing and it's only changed to a forward last year because he wanted to be in that position and because of the chemistry between him, Benz and Bale. Yet he has been scoring a sh*tloads of goals out of his regular position? If this guy can play anywhere as long as he is attacking and still making other teams sh*t themselves, he will always be remembered as one of the legends. As far as your midfield support claim, I could say the same thing about literally every single world class attacker in the world, including Messi. You're basically saying that if any one of them couldn't carry the team even if they were playing with a bamboozled bunch of drunks in midfield and couldn't get passes and sh*t, then that makes them sh*t. Think what you're saying.

Edited by MyName'sJeff
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Ok chaps, how is this topic loading for you guys?

 

At over 1000 pages it a bit of a whooper so it might be worth closing this and starting a new one to avoid any performance issues.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

Fine for me.

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Black Letters: "You (guys) don't deserve to wear this shirt"

 

White Letters: "Join the squad that dosen't put any effort"

 

10501608_10152550458012811_5330109164026

 

 

 

The fans don't deserve this. F*ck the players and the Japanese president

0690277364bf9685df013cd75c3fc867o.png

Edited by SouthLand
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I'm being very calm and I'm substantiating my posts with actual reasons and you dismiss my opinions saying I'm just hating a player. Well, fact is I don't really give a flying f*ck about him or any other football player on the planet. Hate or love are too strong emotions to waste for any person I don't actually know. Anyway, mine is just a personal opinion with all the limitations that a subjective view of things has. Your one is also just another personal opinion. Time will tell who was right. I've seen many alleged football legends being forgotten and "downsized" just a couple of years after they retired. I believe CR will be one of those.

 

I've been following football for the past 32 years and I've always admired real talented players. I have a huge list of them that includes a lot of players who have given me some of the biggest disappointments of my football fan career by beating the teams I supported. But as much as I try to I just can't find anything that would make me put CR in that list. He has never amazed me nor surprised me. And he has literally failed me every time I was there to see if he was all that he was supposed to be.

 

In 2008 final he was saved by Terry's miss and in 2009 he was null. Last year he was once again useless in a final. If you wanna become a football legend then you need to do something legendary and decisive like Zidane scoring a fantastic goal in a CL final for RM or 2 in a WC final against Brazil; Maradona giving the winning pass in the WC final or scoring the most famous goal of all times against England; Ronaldo, the real one, scoring two and winning the fifth title for Brazil. And I could post many more examples...

 

CR is just not made of the same material of the legends, which is a magic material. Messi is much closer to that but he still needs a WC title to gain his spot among the legends.

I mean, Pelé scored two goals in a WC final when he was 17y old, CR at 19y old managed to be as usual null in a EC final against Greece... Things like these separate the legends from the forgettable ones...

Edited by Doc Rikowski
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^ I'm not even going to bother replying to that.

 

We were lucky to get a draw today. West Ham were the much better side, unlucky Max!

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Messi scored with a lucky freekick, deflected but whatever. Shortly after a terrible miss by Suarez, who reminded me of Torres...

Edited by Miro
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I'm being very calm and I'm substantiating my posts with actual reasons and you dismiss my opinions saying I'm just hating a player. Well, fact is I don't really give a flying f*ck about him or any other football player on the planet. Hate or love are too strong emotions to waste for any person I don't actually know. Anyway, mine is just a personal opinion with all the limitations that a subjective view of things has. Your one is also just another personal opinion. Time will tell who was right. I've seen many alleged football legends being forgotten and "downsized" just a couple of years after they retired. I believe CR will be one of those.

 

I've been following football for the past 32 years and I've always admired real talented players. I have a huge list of them that includes a lot of players who have given me some of the biggest disappointments of my football fan career by beating the teams I supported. But as much as I try to I just can't find anything that would make me put CR in that list. He has never amazed me nor surprised me. And he has literally failed me every time I was there to see if he was all that he was supposed to be.

 

In 2008 final he was saved by Terry's miss and in 2009 he was null. Last year he was once again useless in a final. If you wanna become a football legend then you need to do something legendary and decisive like Zidane scoring a fantastic goal in a CL final for RM or 2 in a WC final against Brazil; Maradona giving the winning pass in the WC final or scoring the most famous goal of all times against England; Ronaldo, the real one, scoring two and winning the fifth title for Brazil. And I could post many more examples...

 

CR is just not made of the same material of the legends, which is a magic material. Messi is much closer to that but he still needs a WC title to gain his spot among the legends.

I mean, Pelé scored two goals in a WC final when he was 17y old, CR at 19y old managed to be as usual null in a EC final against Greece... Things like these separate the legends from the forgettable ones...

You put way too much faith in internationals.

 

Doing legendary stuff in the games to get you to the final is enough if you do it often. saying a player is legendary for one moment in one final is stupid, and boiling Zidane's legendary status down to just those moments is practically blasphemy. The VERY best, Doc, do the legendary stuff week in week out as well.

 

Also claiming that Maradona gained legendary status for cheating is unfair to the player he was (despite him being a cheating bastard :p) and shows how botched your view of what a legend of the game is and what makes him so. It would be like saying Zidane is a legend for the headbutt in the 2006 WC final, yes it holds some truth as that moment will not be forgotten, but that is not what ANYONE has in mind when they think of things that make a football legend.

 

^Suarez isn't having a great time of late, I wonder if he will have a falling out with messi like Ibra. If TORRES is telling you you need to score more goals, oh dear.

Edited by Flynny
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Scratch what I said, just shortly after he scored a great volley outside the box from Messi's assist. Fact has it that, Suarez is pretty up there in the assist-makers' list. Goals should pop sooner or later. If not, at worst, I can still see him scoring at least 10 goals this season in La Liga, which is close to the way he started at Liverpool anyway.

Edited by Miro
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I'm being very calm and I'm substantiating my posts with actual reasons and you dismiss my opinions saying I'm just hating a player. Well, fact is I don't really give a flying f*ck about him or any other football player on the planet. Hate or love are too strong emotions to waste for any person I don't actually know. Anyway, mine is just a personal opinion with all the limitations that a subjective view of things has. Your one is also just another personal opinion. Time will tell who was right. I've seen many alleged football legends being forgotten and "downsized" just a couple of years after they retired. I believe CR will be one of those.

You may not be "hating", just grasping at straws and finding any reason to try to discredit him. So he wasn't a factor in last year's CL final. That doesn't take away from the fact that he broke the all-time record of CL top scorer in one season and many of those goals helped the team make it to the final.

People will remember records that were broken and Ronaldo is a headliner along with Messi in that regard. These two have been breaking records left and right in the past few seasons. So that last sentence from that portion of your post sounds like you being disingenuous or just blind hope. Ronaldo has been one of the top players for over a decade now, the notion that he will be "forgotten" after retirement is just absurd. He's been consistently playing at top level for almost 12 years now and he's still only 30 which means he has another potential 2-3 good years left in him.

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Scratch what I said, just shortly after he scored a great volley outside the box from Messi's assist. Fact has it that, Suarez is pretty up there in the assist-makers' list. Goals should pop sooner or later. If not, at worst, I can still see him scoring at least 10 goals this season in La Liga, which is close to the way he started at Liverpool anyway.

Suarez is top quality. Would love to see him in the premier league again. He's definitely adding to his assists in Barcelona, but if he doesn't get a lot of goals, I think it might be another Ibra situation. Messi will obviously be taking most of the goals. His Liverpool days are untouchable.

Edited by MyName'sJeff
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^ I'm not even going to bother replying to that.

 

We were lucky to get a draw today. West Ham were the much better side, unlucky Max!

Thank you for the honest assessment. Tell me about it, very frustrating journey home from the game but overall a good game of football and a good point.

 

Honestly bizarre seeing Man United like that though. Very un-United. Long balls, no cutting edge, no dynamism and you couldn't dominate possession. My Dad is a Red so I have a soft spot for United but I'm not seeing any redeeming features of LVG's reign so far. Thoughts?

 

Oh and thanks for the feedback. No shiny new topic for you chaps. :p

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Well LVG does have a habit of forcing his ridiculous philosophy on his players and judging by the way we played today, they clearly couldn't understand what he said.

 

But seriously, I don't have a clue what's happening. It's gonna take a while for him to transform the team completely, so all the blame can't go to him especially if they play lazy like this. Falcao had a chance in the 70-80th minute or so with a 1 on 1 with the keeper and embarassingly missed it. Fellaini also had a chance before the 2 mins added time. We need to stick to the formation that is best for us, I'd go for either 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. The biggest problem I've noticed is they keep passing the ball back even when they should be charging ahead. As soon as we get a world class centre back and left back and maybe a right back, we'll be solid at the back. Rojo alone is already brilliant. We just need someone to support him that has the qualities.

Edited by MyName'sJeff
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First of all I'm sick to death of seeing Roney play in midfield with Herrera constantly on the bench. Does my head in, Rooney is a number 9 end of. It's not the first time we've gone direct this season, when we played with the 3-5-2 we were all about possession and slow build up play and it was not working. We couldn't break down a League two defense! Recently we've switched back to the 4-4-2 diamond and looked quite good against Leicester last week but against Cambridge in the replay midweek we went direct and just hoofed long balls into Fellaini who was up front with van Persie. Was weird to see but got the job done. Today we just looked confused. I'm not sure if our midfield knew what their roles were, Blind was literally our only midfielder with no support. van Persie and Falcao were absolutely shocking, we should be playing James Wilson ahead of them two. I have no idea what van Gaal was thinking playing that attacking side against West Ham away from home. Was a disaster waiting to happen and like I said, we were very lucky to come away with a point.

 

I agree with MyName'sJeff, I rate Rojo highly. He's turning into a right fan favorite.

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You put way too much faith in internationals.

 

Doing legendary stuff in the games to get you to the final is enough if you do it often. saying a player is legendary for one moment in one final is stupid, and boiling Zidane's legendary status down to just those moments is practically blasphemy. The VERY best, Doc, do the legendary stuff week in week out as well.

 

Also claiming that Maradona gained legendary status for cheating is unfair to the player he was (despite him being a cheating bastard :p) and shows how botched your view of what a legend of the game is and what makes him so. It would be like saying Zidane is a legend for the headbutt in the 2006 WC final, yes it holds some truth as that moment will not be forgotten, but that is not what ANYONE has in mind when they think of things that make a football legend.

 

^Suarez isn't having a great time of late, I wonder if he will have a falling out with messi like Ibra. If TORRES is telling you you need to score more goals, oh dear.

 

A big chunk of football history is made in the WC. The WC is the one trophy every football player dreams about winning.

I'm quite sure both Messi and CR would trade all their titles for a WC.

 

And no, I'm not reducing football legends to just one or two moments of their career.

I'm just saying that such moments are indeed defining moments in their career and the coronation of their legendary status.

Plus, those moment go down in history and will be remembered for ever.

I can't find any moment like those in CR's career.

 

I agree, consistency is important, week after week, but only if combined with being decisive when it's needed.

And that's where I see CR failing each time in the defining moments.

 

Btw, I was talking about the other goal by Maradona against England, not the "header" obviously! ;)

 

---

 

@ Flesh-n-bone: saying that he's above average but not a legend is discrediting him? I'm just not the kind of guy that gets caught in the hype.

I know that CR is also a valuable marketing product and that there's a lot of overrating about his football skills due to the fact that his image sells well in many ways.

I work in advertising and I just see it.

Take Iniesta and Xavi, possibly the most decisive and influencing football players of the past decade while playing as the backbone of two teams in a style of football that won absolutely everything in an handful of years.

They have been praised a lot indeed but never to the absurd heights CR is usually praised for doing way less than them.

Cause, well they're not that marketable, aren't they?

Unfortunately the hype around CR is another clear sign that football has become more about the money and the looks than about the skills and the game itself.

I'm not surprised about it and I'm not naive about it. It's just how it is today.

But I'm sorry, after 32 years watching the game I think I can understand when one player is a legend and when one is not.

 

The records... Yes, records have been broken but you seem to forget that since the CL was implemented a lot has changed.

Nowadays a top player in a top team has the chance to play in the CL basically every single year even when his team hasn't actually won the national title nor the European one.

On top of that the group stage grants you a number of matches that in the past, with only knock out stages available, was consistently less than today.

How can we put in the same statistics numbers that have been generated with different criteria and with different tournament rules?

The records become all relative.

Try to imagine how many goals could have scored Maradona in the European Champions Cup if he could have played it each and every year he was in Naples (7 seasons) in at least the 6 matches of the group stage.

He won the Italian title twice with Naples and ended up playing just 6 matches in the main European competition. 6 instead of a possible minimum of 42…

Or take Platini, he won absolutely everything except the UEFA cup and the WC in just 3 years. He played 29 matches in the Champions Cup during 6 seasons and scored 17 goals.

If you consider that a top player nowadays can easily play about 20 CL matches in just 2 seasons you can see how easy is to beat past records for today's players.

CR played 109 CL matches...

Back then you had very few chances to win a European title. Each win was twice as "heavy" than today's ones.

The amount of goals is quite relative given the current conditions and is not something that is enough for a player to entitle himself (the unbelievable arrogance... or should I say Ignorance?) the best of all times.

You know who was UEFA all time top scorer in all competitions till a while ago? Filippo Inzaghi (right now he's the 4th of all times).

Certainly a deadly striker, someone who would always be in the right place at the right time. A "legend" in its own way but not a Legend.

 

CR is an improved version of Inzaghi*. That's how I see it. ;)

 

*And Inzaghi won more international titles than CR, including a WC. Imagine that! :pp

Edited by Doc Rikowski
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Scratch what I said, just shortly after he scored a great volley outside the box from Messi's assist. Fact has it that, Suarez is pretty up there in the assist-makers' list. Goals should pop sooner or later. If not, at worst, I can still see him scoring at least 10 goals this season in La Liga, which is close to the way he started at Liverpool anyway.

Suarez is top quality. Would love to see him in the premier league again. He's definitely adding to his assists in Barcelona, but if he doesn't get a lot of goals, I think it might be another Ibra situation. Messi will obviously be taking most of the goals. His Liverpool days are untouchable.

 

Messi is definitely going to be top scorer, even of La Liga, and maybe even top assist-maker at the end of the season. I don't really believe that a case like Ibrahimovic is going to happen again. Unlike then, Suarez plays each match now and most of them a full 90 minutes. I can see Suarez scoring more goals than Ibrahimovic this season, and next season he'll score even more once he gets to understand the Spanish's teams way of playing.

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I think I can kinda see Doc's point. What makes a football player great is obviously different things to different people, but universally one of the things people like is a wizard and a genius. A player with incredible technical ability who just has an intangible quality about them. A real "ball player" who can do magicall things. They just have an ability which is natural, and you can't learn it or acquire it through hard work. I don't think C.Ronaldo has it tbh, not in the same way Messi or Maradona or Iniesta or Xavi or Cruyff or Ronaldo or Zidane do/did. C.Ronaldo is an incredibly efficient machine who gets a lot of goals, but I wouldn't describe him as a genius or a magician. He works incredibly hard probably harder than anyone else, and is a tremendous athlete who is very effective at what he does and he has some fancy tricks. It's not the same though for me.

 

He is still a truly great player for me personally, but a different kind of player to the "true legends" who capture your heart with the pure footballing essence.

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Couldn't have said it better. In fact judging by the reactions I failed to say the same things that stu said so well. ;)

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I think I can kinda see Doc's point. What makes a football player great is obviously different things to different people, but universally one of the things people like is a wizard and a genius. A player with incredible technical ability who just has an intangible quality about them. A real "ball player" who can do magicall things. They just have an ability which is natural, and you can't learn it or acquire it through hard work. I don't think C.Ronaldo has it tbh, not in the same way Messi or Maradona or Iniesta or Xavi or Cruyff or Ronaldo or Zidane do/did. C.Ronaldo is an incredibly efficient machine who gets a lot of goals, but I wouldn't describe him as a genius or a magician. He works incredibly hard probably harder than anyone else, and is a tremendous athlete who is very effective at what he does and he has some fancy tricks. It's not the same though for me.

 

He is still a truly great player for me personally, but a different kind of player to the "true legends" who capture your heart with the pure footballing essence.

Literally, the only difference between Messi and all the past legends with Ronaldo is that they are more pleasing to the eyes in terms of dribbling and skills, which even Ronaldo incoorperates into his football tactics from time to time because it's not going to work every time. So to be honest, you can't say he doesn't have it when firstly, he doesn't even have natural talents in that attribute, yet he worked hard towards developing those skills, and doesn't demonstrate it all the time. I would actually put Ronaldinho as the most entertaining player in history in terms of eye catching performances as no one can manipulate the ball the way he did, not even Messi, or Zidane, Di Steffano or anyone else. But skills and dribbling dont mean sh*t unless you manage to score every game while doing it, which none of them have done. So scoring goals, and the qualities that Ronaldo poses already puts him down on the legends list.

Edited by MyName'sJeff
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I think I can kinda see Doc's point. What makes a football player great is obviously different things to different people, but universally one of the things people like is a wizard and a genius. A player with incredible technical ability who just has an intangible quality about them. A real "ball player" who can do magicall things. They just have an ability which is natural, and you can't learn it or acquire it through hard work. I don't think C.Ronaldo has it tbh, not in the same way Messi or Maradona or Iniesta or Xavi or Cruyff or Ronaldo or Zidane do/did. C.Ronaldo is an incredibly efficient machine who gets a lot of goals, but I wouldn't describe him as a genius or a magician. He works incredibly hard probably harder than anyone else, and is a tremendous athlete who is very effective at what he does and he has some fancy tricks. It's not the same though for me.

 

He is still a truly great player for me personally, but a different kind of player to the "true legends" who capture your heart with the pure footballing essence.

Okay now it's put like that I can see your points but can Messi, Maradona and Iniesta head a ball like Ronaldo? Different type of players, Ronaldo is very unique. He's a better all round player than Messi and Maradona types if you get what I mean.

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£5.136 billion for Premier League TV rights..........................f*ck me.

Edited by Hodgey.
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Absolutely ridiculous. That's an amazing amount of money going to waste just coz two arrogant companies wanna slug it out with each other. And don't forget where that much money is coming from. It's one of the reasons why I hate this country.

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Gawd, I read on BBC sport that it's going to make the sh*ttest premier league teams as rich as the best teams from other leagues like Holland and Portugal. Crazy money. It's going to make it even more important for teams not to get relegated and drive the wedge between the PL and the rest of the football league teams. It just seems to be going up and up and up as well, it'll probably break 10 billion before long. Crazy crazy money.

 

Probably going to be even more detrimental to the national team and developing English talent as well.

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@ MyName'sJeff and WrongKid: just have a look at this and maybe you get what I meant.

Maradona could score in absolutely any way beside making score everyone else in his team.

Some legendary headers in the clip... And that's just a small sample of his art.

The way he treated the ball was divine, his vision of the game was unique.

Personally I haven't seen anything else like it since Maradona retired and that's cause I guess I've never seen Pelé.

 

 

 

And Ronaldinho, definitely a good disciple but the master is this one. ;)

 

Edited by Doc Rikowski
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Sorry but I have no respect for players like Maradona who cheated in the 86' world cup to get his team to win. Hand of God they said. A legend or class player would never do that but only use his legs to score. I rate him as one of the best definitely, especially coz there was barely any world class players at that time bar a few, which was very limited, but I have no respect for him after watching that incident.

Edited by MyName'sJeff
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Sorry but I have no respect for players like Maradona who cheated in the 86' world cup to get his team to win. Hand of God they said. A legend or class player would never do that but only use his legs to score. I rate him as one of the best definitely, especially coz there was barely any world class players at that time bar a few, which was very limited, but I have no respect for him after watching that incident.

I agree with this. I respect his football ability but he's a f*cking cheat and should be remember as that too. Everybody still ridicules Suarez for his handball in the 2010 World Cup.

 

Harry Kane scored again for Spurs last night. 23rd goal of the season I believe.

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Sorry but I have no respect for players like Maradona who cheated in the 86' world cup to get his team to win. Hand of God they said. A legend or class player would never do that but only use his legs to score. I rate him as one of the best definitely, especially coz there was barely any world class players at that time bar a few, which was very limited, but I have no respect for him after watching that incident.

 

Goals like that happen all the time. The referee just sucked. Anyway Maradona is much more than that but it's your right to have no respect towards him. I can understand that.

Back then, when it happened, I hated him for that. I was supporting England during the match. But nowadays I miss his genius.

 

As for "coz there was barely any world class players at that time", I'm sorry but the 80s and 90s were absolutely packed with world class players. That was pretty much a golden era for football. Far more great players than today.

Platini, Rumenigge, Careca, Zico, Socrates, Junior, Maradona, Lineker, Butragueño, Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Francescoli, Matthaeus, Voeller... Amazing times for football.

World Cup 1986 was so packed of stars...

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Where's Johan Cruyff on that list?

 

There's plenty of world class players in today's world. There's not just attackers, but defenders and midfielders and keepers. Players like, Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, Iniesta, Neymar, Bale, Rodriguez, Robben, Reus, Schweinsteigger, Muller, Gotze, Varane, Benedikt Howedes, Di Maria, Rooney, Van Persie, Falcao, Sanchez, I'd even put Harry Kane because he's f*cking amazing at 21, so many other world class players today, and the fact that things were much different in the 80's and 90's.

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Cruyff was more of a 70s star that's why I forgot him...

 

There are a lot of good players today too but in general the quality was better back then. But that's subjective. I'll give you that.

 

As for other roles back then I could fill another long list.

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