Did Marston Lie?

[Non Funkable Token]

1 hour ago, Jabalous said:

I believe that R* will remain faithful to Redemption and follow what John said that the gang didn't visit New Austin (NA). However, and as some members have suggested, we might see the gang, or Dutch in particular, asking Arthur to venture into these unknown, dusty and lawless territories of NA to do some favors. Maybe they have connections there for things like weapons? Anyway, I personally believe that NA will be inaccessible due to destroyed roads and rails, much like Mexico in Redemption, until a certain point in the story when the gang collapses, then Williamson, and probably others, will seek NA for a hideout. John won't be part of that group.

 

I remember the "as long as we get paid, or you get shot, I'm happy" line from Arthur's mouth. There are Arthur (off course), Charlie and Bill. Could that sound as a "business venture trip"? I think so. And that would explain why Bill settled himself in New Austin some years after. 

 

1 hour ago, wagszilla said:

1. Yes. Same year. 1899.
   • Blackwater Massacre in 1899 =/= Botched Robbery that ended the gang in 1906.
2. New Austin? Simple. John didn't go there.
   • Maybe Arthur doesn't even go there and it's RDO only. See point #5 below.
3. Yes. I don't remember the exact lines but John kind of paints the picture that it was a slow decline of the gang. Some left, some stayed, and then Dutch went big time crazy in 1906 likely because he was fully backed up against the wall and the law was on his ass.

Some thoughts:

1. It is mentioned that a lot of Dutch's gang consisted of Native Americans. Charles Smith is obviously a Native American. I bring him up for the obvious comparison but it also might hint that he's a badass of the gang. He shows his utility to the gang, Dutch maybe gets the idea of taking up common cause with the Natives from there moving forward. Trust loyal dogs instead of... Arthur types maybe? Or unreliable Irish traitors maybe?
2. I bring up Charles Smith for another reason. He teaches Arthur how to hunt. Besides being a glorified tutorial, this means that he and Arthur likely do not know one another. This suggests the gang, at least this iteration, is fairly new.
3. In the 2nd trailer Hosea Matthews starts a story of "How I met Dutch". While I think this is actually just a campfire story slapped into the trailer, it's possible that very few members of the gang know one another. They all know Dutch. So in 1899, we're really seeing the gang take it's place in infamy. Dutch is going for broke. Swinging for the fences. Back to the 2nd point. Arthur knows Dutch but it remains to be seen who else Arthur knows. 
4. I don't think the game will skip through time too much but it is possible. "Are you comin'... Buddy?" Dutch is breaking Arthur out of prison but comments suggest that Arthur was a "senior member" of Dutch's gang. Maybe this is Arthur and Dutch becoming reacquainted with one another after a long absence. The young boy in Trailer #2 "in black" could be John, that would be the biggest retcon considering age descriptions of John when his dad died in RDR, but possible. 
5. Speaking of John, John's ranch in Beecher's Hope is like two klicks from Blackwater. This suggests to me that John was not involved in the Blackwater Massacre, either. Seems a little too close to the hangman's noose to me. 
6. Speaking of John again, Dutch said "you always had a high opinion of yourself" and from the previews it's suggested that John isn't well liked. Maybe the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Abagail was always deprecating of John but having to "save the poor bastard's life", etc. means that these incidents were more frequent than you would like. Which gives us two options. Either John wasn't around during the Blackwater Massacre / early days of Dutch's gang and the gang has need of a new gun, enter John. Or John was sidelined either because his unpredictable nature or because his unpredictable nature had already landed him and/or the gang into trouble.
7. A final note about John. I get a sort of "aww shucks" quality about him. I don't think he has the intelligence to be a master manipulator which is why he's uncomfortable talking to Bonnie about his past. He probably matured a lot after leaving Dutch's gang. Dutch's last words are more profound than John has the intellectual capacity to grasp. He shrugs it off. Because he's a dunce.
   • The intelligent stuff in RDR were done by Irish (funny because he's an anarchic drunk) and the wise old man Landon Ricketts, who I think in not so many words, calls John stupid to his face. 
   • To put an even finer point on it: this is the guy that went to Fort Mercer and told Bill to come out and got gutshot because of it. Not exactly a Rhodes Scholar, this one. 

 

 

 

In the character description they say Charlie Joined the gang not so long ago. He's probably the newest member.

 

John joined when he was 12 (it was 17-18 before they retconned that...) but anyway, by 1899 he was a well known member. If he wasn't in the Blackwater Massacre should be because he was either captured or injured/sick. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Fluffy Sock

[USAPatriot]

Transcript from RDR 1.

Bonnie: How well do you know New Austin?

Marston: I don't. We talked about coming down here many times but we never made
         it.

Bonnie: Who's "we"?

Marston: Me and the folks I used to, used to work with. Yeah, New Austin, the
         last real outlaw country. Where the old ways still hold true. You do
         a man wrong, he'll shoot you for it. You do a man right...well, he
         still may shoot you for it. But at least you have an idea of what's
         right and what's wrong here.

Bonnie: Dear oh dear, Mr. Marston... What dreadful novel did you get that
        romantacized drivel out of? Those days are long gone, if they were
        ever here at all. According to Pa, those days were just people shooting
        each other because they lost at cards. We'll be lucky if our ranch
        survives another 5 years. Businessmen are the new cowboys.

Edited September 30, 2018 by USAPatriot

[HockeyMike24]

I actually just finished RD1 for the first time ever an hour ago. (Amazing story, I regret not playing it sooner) Here are my thoughts...

 

I honestly think there is a good possibility John will be portrayed as a "bad guy" to the gang. Don't forget we only ever got Marston's side of the story. I can see him being a not so loyal soldier and maybe Dutch finds out that he wants to leave so that's why they left him for dead as John puts it.

 

It might not be that he lied. But rather he just told his side of things to his knowledge.

[Haha365]

Well, from what I've read,  it works appear at least some odd the gang are not too fond of John. I wonder if he and Arthur will be friendly or if there will be a rivalry.

[bcsimms04]

It's incredibly easy to get around the "gang never went to New Austin" thing.  

 

Just have Arthur go by himself.  That's it.  Problem solved.  You can go there as Arthur but the gang/camp doesn't go.  No more hand wringing needed.

[SAVAGEMC]

On 9/23/2018 at 3:00 PM, Captain_Jalapeno said:

Great points OP. Seems like there will be no way around retconing to some degree. We'll just have to see how obvious it is, and how forgivable it is, because if they undo too much, its going to make the combined grand epic a joke and a stain on their writing prowess, making people once again question the decision to revisit this gang as opposed to just a new original western epic game. 

Who ever questioned that decisions? People have always wanted a prequel about Johns gang even back then.