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ColeAce

Gambling in RDR and legal issues..

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ColeAce

So Ive been thinking about gambling in the online game.  Remember how we always thought that GTA5 would add gambling to online but never did?  Im wondering if there are potential legal issues since there is real money involved.  Buy shark card-then gamble online.  Also, do they want us to be gambling online and potentially win a lot of money?  Although, the house always wins.  Thoughts on gambling in Red Dead Online?

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Wootgratzhugz

Gambling with real money Bad idea. Considering that nations are cracking down on Microtransactions as is. If R* tipped that scale I would be out cause that would open up a Pandoras box of sh*t.
 

This is where it becomes Gray & loop holes occur & that Pandora's box cracks open. They could have it where you puchase items outside of gambling, say $20 for a Jacket, then you can gamble items.
 

Now technically it's not gambling with real money as you are using items already purchased for your character to use but those items can slip into gambling, then the cycle continues.
 

A Jacket can be used by your character in the open world so it has stats outside of the parameters of Gambling. Do you see the loop hole?
 

Also another. Jacket with stats is purchased through Microtransactions Store, traded for in-game coin then that same coin is used to Gamble, no items Gambled as legalities are filtered through the trade system, an indirect direct use of Microtransactions for gambling. Hence it's called loop hole, a back to the intended purpose after going through a loop of filtration. It then becomes a case of moral, ethical & legal battle.
 

People will catch on & by golly they will. Considering the fact GTAO has awakened people to the shady practices Take-Two & R* are getting watched like a hawk. RDR2 is a chance at a second chance that Take-Two & R* can't afford to take for granted.
 

This is what will happen if Take-Two R* is foolish enough to do it. Take-Two R* will become EA overnight & will crash so hard, overnight R* will of destroyed everything they have worked for over years. Look what is happening to EA now. It's a warning sign to all developers. Stay away from that Iceberg.
 

If Take-Two & R* goes down this route, may as well take the Golden Goose out the back now & shoot it.
 

Your call Take-Two.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wootgratzhugz
Furthered the explanation & neaten up the post.

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happygrowls

I imagine that gambling would be just a minigame and you wouldn't benefit in Online from it, otherwise that'd make money making /too/ easy

 

Same reason the casino never came out for GTA V, too easy to make money with it if you abuse it.

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ColeAce
13 minutes ago, happygrowls said:

I imagine that gambling would be just a minigame and you wouldn't benefit in Online from it, otherwise that'd make money making /too/ easy

 

Same reason the casino never came out for GTA V, too easy to make money with it if you abuse it.

Actually id argue the opposite. I think they would in turn make more money because it would be easier to lose money!  If the odds are like vegas, they would be stacked against us. House always wins!

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Zello

Take Two does a form of gambling already in NBA 2k.

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1898

One thing in general about online poker I'm leery about is that 2 friends who end up at the same table can chat with each other and clean your clock?

 

 

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Captain_Jalapeno

I really want online poker and games and such online. I think the only way to do it online is to have the character perform some work task that pays out gambling chips. There will be no other way to get chips other than an in-game work job(s), so that everyone has to perform these tasks to acquire starter money for gambling. You cant sharkcard currency additions to your character for gambling. The gambling winnings/chips can be cashed out to buy in-game items, but real currency cant ever be added into your character's gambling stash. 

 

Scenario: A job that takes 7ish minutes to complete pays out $50 in gambling chips. Players 1-4 all spent 7 min each to have $50 gambling money. $200 at the table among 4 players. After the poker game, player 1 has $150, player 2 has $25, player 3 has $25, and player 4 busted out. No REAL money was lost, player 1 won gaming time from players 2-4, and may not have to do game jobs for a while because he kept using his gambling chips to raise more gambling chips. Players 2-4 will have to go back to the grind sooner to acquire more chips to gamble again.  If one player is really good at poker, he can keep building up money to spend for game items. He can transfer chips to friends if he wants. No one ever lost a real dollar, but the high roller became rich in other player's grinding time. Whats wrong with that?

 

There arent going to be very many high rollers in game anyways. People wanting to buy items for their character faster can still sharkcard themselves money faster, but wont be able to trade that money to another player. Getting super rich off gambling will be more rare than the amount of players that will cheat and use glitches and take from Rockstars bottom line that they shouldnt be afraid to implement gambling as I just spelled it out.

 

There will be no visual tells to give away in gambling as your character sits at the table. If youre stupid enough to have vocal tells on the mic while gambling, thats your dumb fault. As long as the gambling coding is fair to all players, it can be a big hit, keep players online for years to gamble with strangers (and never lose a real dollar), and 90% of players will only ever get a decent to good haul rarely, enough to make you want to try, but not so much that sharkcarding isnt a faster way to get items if you were the type of player who sharkcarded. 

 

 

2 hours ago, 1898 said:

One thing in general about online poker I'm leery about is that 2 friends who end up at the same table can chat with each other and clean your clock?

Someone please explain how buddies on mics could fleece another player in a card game they dont control the coding of?  

Edited by Captain_Jalapeno

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Wootgratzhugz
1 hour ago, Captain_Jalapeno said:

I really want online poker and games and such online. I think the only way to do it online is to have the character perform some work task that pays out gambling chips. There will be no other way to get chips other than an in-game work job(s), so that everyone has to perform these tasks to acquire starter money for gambling. You cant sharkcard currency additions to your character for gambling. The gambling winnings/chips can be cashed out to buy in-game items, but real currency cant ever be added into your character's gambling stash. 

 

Scenario: A job that takes 7ish minutes to complete pays out $50 in gambling chips. Players 1-4 all spent 7 min each to have $50 gambling money. $200 at the table among 4 players. After the poker game, player 1 has $150, player 2 has $25, player 3 has $25, and player 4 busted out. No REAL money was lost, player 1 won gaming time from players 2-4, and may not have to do game jobs for a while because he kept using his gambling chips to raise more gambling chips. Players 2-4 will have to go back to the grind sooner to acquire more chips to gamble again.  If one player is really good at poker, he can keep building up money to spend for game items. He can transfer chips to friends if he wants. No one ever lost a real dollar, but the high roller became rich in other player's grinding time. Whats wrong with that?

 

There arent going to be very many high rollers in game anyways. People wanting to buy items for their character faster can still sharkcard themselves money faster, but wont be able to trade that money to another player. Getting super rich off gambling will be more rare than the amount of players that will cheat and use glitches and take from Rockstars bottom line that they shouldnt be afraid to implement gambling as I just spelled it out.

Great idea @Captain_Jalapeno that is the solution.

 

I would suggest no won chips/money can be transferred to another as there could be a Syndicate essablished by 4 trading to one then strong arming people because they're stacked in chips & creating a monopoly. Everything else stated is on point.

 

If trading is to be implemented I would say have a trade duration. 2 days & a set amount, up to a certain amount like $1 per day etc. 

 

Quote

Someone please explain how buddies on mics could fleece another player in a card game they dont control the coding of?  

 

Streaming Snipes or Two players sit at a table & one person befriends a random brings them to that table & off mic the three communicate convo. Basically fleece the random & split the wins (Hence needs a limitation or none for giving won chips)

 

Of course playing Texas Hold Em with your cards for all too see (Stream) or like you said with mic on then it's their own damn fault. I guess when online, be careful randoms who you trust, after all game centralises being a Bandit. Sounds Organically Wild West Already 😄

Edited by Wootgratzhugz

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1898

Pretty well explained above but I'm also talking about 2 buddies on their cell phones.

Edited by 1898

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NYC PATROL

My guess is they could let you gamble with money earned through online missions only. And microtransaction money can't be used to bet. Something along those lines.

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MCMXCII

I'm curious to see what they do cause I want Liar's Dice, Poker, Blackjack, Horshoes and any other games from back then to be in the game.

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MadHammerThorsteen
20 hours ago, KY Jello said:

Take Two does a form of gambling already in NBA 2k.

Take Two is not 2KSports. They may own 2KSports, but I doubt they're barking the monetization orders.

Edited by MatthewIRL

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ALifeOfMisery
10 minutes ago, MatthewIRL said:

Take Two is not 2KSports. They may own 2KSports, but I doubt they're barking the monetization orders.

T2 might not micromanage the implementation of microtransactions, but Strauss Zelnick was quoted as saying that going forward, T2 want every game under their umbrella to offer ongoing player engagement opportunities.

 

That was a paraphrase, but the exact quote is somewhere in one of the T2 conference call manuscripts from some time in the past year or so.

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Jason
5 hours ago, MatthewIRL said:

Take Two is not 2KSports. They may own 2KSports, but I doubt they're barking the monetization orders.

Of course they are. Very few of the actual developers want them, they have to jump over hurdles trying to justify them when they're asked about them. The emphasis on microtransactions is 100% from the top execs.

 

But anyway, I've said it before in similar topics in the past, I don't see them having in-game gambling if they have shark cards. Especially so in the current climate. It wouldn't garner as much world wide attention as adding it to GTAO would but yea.. It'd probably create a lot of heat and end up being another Battlefront 2 fiasco.

Edited by Jason

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The FoolYT

The best ideas to maybe circumvent that issue is either have separate currency that replenishes daily or have some sort of token option that you can earn. GTA Online had betting for races and stuff too so i don't think betting will be a big issue.

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ALifeOfMisery
34 minutes ago, The FoolYT said:

The best ideas to maybe circumvent that issue is either have separate currency that replenishes daily or have some sort of token option that you can earn. GTA Online had betting for races and stuff too so i don't think betting will be a big issue.

Maybe R* will keep track of earned and bought currency separately within our total cash amount?

 

So if a character hasn't earned anything through gameplay but has purchased $10k (or whatever), they wouldn't be able to take part in any gambling activities. IDK.

 

I'll be disappointed if poker etc. aren't available online, but R* don't seem to like anything that could be exploited in such a way that allows players to transfer money to eachother. Look at the nerf to race betting that made it pointless in GTAO, which was because of exploits.

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Captain_Jalapeno
18 hours ago, Wootgratzhugz said:

Great idea @Captain_Jalapeno that is the solution.

 

I would suggest no won chips/money can be transferred to another as there could be a Syndicate essablished by 4 trading to one then strong arming people because they're stacked in chips & creating a monopoly. Everything else stated is on point.

 

If trading is to be implemented I would say have a trade duration. 2 days & a set amount, up to a certain amount like $1 per day etc. 

 

 

Streaming Snipes or Two players sit at a table & one person befriends a random brings them to that table & off mic the three communicate convo. Basically fleece the random & split the wins (Hence needs a limitation or none for giving won chips)

 

Of course playing Texas Hold Em with your cards for all too see (Stream) or like you said with mic on then it's their own damn fault. I guess when online, be careful randoms who you trust, after all game centralises being a Bandit. Sounds Organically Wild West Already 😄

Trading to others isnt make or break for me. Dont include it for all I care. I was just thinking that if you could buy game items with won chips, then why would anyone agree to team up and donate money they could use for items to their crew leader/pimp or whatever lol. 

 

New suggestion: My game jobs idea is still the only thing that you can do to acquire gambling money so we're just spending each others grind time. No clear trading to other players. Buy in table limits. 8 player limits for all traditional gambling. $100, $500, and $1000 buy in table options ($800, $4000, and $8000 pots). So it doesnt matter how much you and your "syndicate" have, you cant bring in more money than the buy in limit to overwhelm other players. You can quit at any time, but it affects your gamblers rating. And people starting matches can set minimum "gambling honor" limits so you dont get a bunch of quitters at your table. So if youre stupid enough to throw matches to "transfer money"or help another crew member win, it affects your gambling honor. And since everyone is so crazy about their KD, I doubt many will deliberately nosedive their gambling honor to help another friend.  Horse racing wont be a gambling game, you can only win prize money from the game, no point betting anything on that since people can screw with you, and they nerfed GTAO race gambling into the ground, dont even bother for RDO racing.   

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Mik73

Man I hope they do have gambling. Makes no sense to me not to have it in an old west setting with brigands, highway robbers and other sleazeballs coalescing in saloons and taverns. What else is a lowlife thief and a drunk gonna do with all his hard stolen money? What else is the established robber baron and cattle rancher gonna do in his manor/mansion to keep the upper crust entertained (and poorer then himself)?

 

Anyway, as others have mentioned, it's wholly trivial to put a gambling system in place that doesn't gain or lose anyone real money.  I like the missions = gambling chips idea a lot actually. Now assuming that these gambling mini-games would have to be instanced (no point allowing any random schmuck to wander in and shoot up your table), you could have it so that all gambling tables are randomised. Minimise the possibility of friends 'teaming up' to tip the odds in their favour. Friends could still play 'friendly' games of poker for no actual money gains or losses. Combine that with gambling chips being character or player-bound. So even if you and a buddy were randomly 'teamed up', you couldn't share the proceeds with your friend.  The idea of buddies 'cheating' in this way is kind of funny for role-playing a pair of hustlers, but not sure it's worth it in the big scheme of things.

 

Other things you could do would be to put a hard limit on how much you can gamble in a 24 hour period. Something reasonable that the average Player could earn in an hour or two of missions. So you can 'ante in' up to your limit. If you win huge, great. And you can keep gambling and potentially lose it all. But you'll only ever be able to lose up to your initial daily limit (plus whatever you won that day).

 

First thing first though, gambling currency - whether it's gambling chips or in-game $$ would have to be completely divorced from the Micro-transaction economy. Nothing you buy with real $$ can be used for gambling, and gambling can't lose you any real world dollars. 

I, for one, will be looking carefully at how they handle both gambling and their so-called 'Shark Cards' when RDO releases.  An intelligently handled gambling system --hopefully not nerfed into the ground so it risks and rewards nothing at all -- will be a good indicator of whether they learned anything from GTAO and are charting a different course with RDO.

 

Starting to veer off-topic here. But if I see only 1 single currency in the game, used to reward all game activity and to buy all goods and services. If that is the same currency rewarded by RDO's version of Shark Cards, I'm likely not long for Online. I've seen how having only 1 currency compromised every aspect of game design in GTAO. I'm not going down that road again. I really hope R* and Take 2 have looked hard at the micro-transaction landscape in gaming since 2012 (both mobile and AAA games), and have learned some things going forward. The 1-currency Shark Card concept needs to disappear.  There are better, and I maintain more profitable, ways to work a cash shop, and not compromise your internal game mechanics, economy and reward structure.  Sadly, I'm not convinced they have what it takes to pull that needle from their heavily pockmarked arms.

 

 

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P.T.

There is a game already out on pc and ps4 ( maybe xbox im not sure) that is a straight up casino, that allows you to buy your chips with real money ( although you can also earn them in game freely). You can not "cash out" with real money, so basically you spend the money on nothing just coins. You can lose said coins . So if thats legal ( game has been out for years ) then i see absolutely no reason they can not have gambling in RDR2 Online. 

 

http://casino.digitalleisure.com/  -  I see no reason this can be legal and having gamling card games in RDR2 Online would not be . 

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Stevenrod1994

So maybe "Purchased money" will go into a separate "wallet" aside from in-game earned money, and only with that in-game earned money would we be able to gamble with? I hope that makes sense. Seems to be the easiest solution.

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1898
On 9/26/2018 at 2:12 PM, P.T. said:

There is a game already out on pc and ps4 ( maybe xbox im not sure) that is a straight up casino, that allows you to buy your chips with real money ( although you can also earn them in game freely). You can not "cash out" with real money, so basically you spend the money on nothing just coins. You can lose said coins . So if thats legal ( game has been out for years ) then i see absolutely no reason they can not have gambling in RDR2 Online. 

 

http://casino.digitalleisure.com/  -  I see no reason this can be legal and having gamling card games in RDR2 Online would not be . 

I play Poker Heat which is similar. You buy some chips at the beginning but then there are ways to start accumulating free chips. Then it's not how many chips you have in your bank, but whether you win or lose at a particular table where everyone starts out with a set amount of chips.

 

So if the RDR2 poker chips were the same money I would use for purchasing my online goods, I would be very reluctant to play. I've had posses of 3 or 4 buddies team up and kick my ass in free roam. Nothing wrong with that, that's part of the game, paying your dues, but I don't think that same posse will of suddenly take pity on me at the poker table and decide to play fair. That ain't gonna happen.

Edited by 1898

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Mr Fyn666

I'm a huge poker fan and play regularly online (Pokerstars etc)

 

I honestly can't see how poker in RDR2 can be played with "real money"

 

Internet gambling laws are currently one of the toughest to adhere to and there is absolutely no way in this world R* could have children gambling for real stakes...

 

IDK how poker will work online, unless there is a split player balance... 

 

1 part accrued through gameplay and used for gambling activities..

 

1 part "Cowcards" for in-game purchases....

 

Just a thought......

 

 

EDIT: Just read the lengthy posts on here and it seems a few of us have similar thoughts... Nice one!

Edited by Mr Fyn666
Update

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P.T.
1 hour ago, 1898 said:

I play Poker Heat which is similar. You buy some chips at the beginning but then there are ways to start accumulating free chips. Then it's not how many chips you have in your bank, but whether you win or lose at a particular table where everyone starts out with a set amount of chips.

 

So if the RDR2 poker chips were the same money I would use for purchasing my online goods, I would be very reluctant to play. I've had posses of 3 or 4 buddies team up and kick my ass in free roam. Nothing wrong with that, that's part of the game, paying your dues, but I don't think that same posse will of suddenly take pity on me at the poker table and decide to play fair. That ain't gonna happen.

My point is, in these casino games ,you can  purchase chips with real money, it is an option. You then can lose your chips playing games in the casino, thus you are able to lose your chips you bought with real money. I dont really see the difference here. In RDR online im sure you will be able to earn money thru activities. Just like in the casino games.At the end of the day, you can lose real money at the tables in those games. Fact is you pretty much lost that money the second you bought the chips,because none that i know of allow you to "cash out" in real life. So I really fail to see what is different here. Its about purchasing in game currency with real life money and then losing that in game currency in a game of chance. 

 

Which for the record would not bother me since i nevre buy in game currencies and never will. So i personally have nothing to lose in it, for those who would buy , well thats their personal choice they know the risks going in.

Edited by P.T.

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1898
12 minutes ago, P.T. said:

My point is, in these casino games ,you can  purchase chips with real money, it is an option. You then can lose your chips playing games in the casino, thus you are able to lose your chips you bought with real money. I dont really see the difference here. In RDR online im sure you will be able to earn money thru activities. Just like in the casino games.At the end of the day, you can lose real money at the tables in those games. Fact is you pretty much lost that money the second you bought the chips,because none that i know of allow you to "cash out" in real life. So I really fail to see what is different here. Its about purchasing in game currency with real life money and then losing that in game currency in a game of chance. 

I'm not totally understanding what you're saying or what differences you're talking about.

 

If we can buy chips that will be used ONLY for RDR poker, fine, I'll probably play.  If I have to use the same money I spent hours grinding for only to have a couple propeller-beanie wearing pricks fleece me of it, I won't be playing.  I'll be saving up for a ranch or paddlewheel boat etc. 

Edited by 1898

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Jason

It's not about the legality so to speak, it's more of the... stigma around Rockstar adding gambling to RDO, or GTAO. You can get away with it when your game is nothing more than a niche card/casino game, that's the entire premise of the game.

 

It is not the premise of GTAO or RDO. Where as in those casino games you're building up chips/coins simply for achievements sake, or to simply play (as a lot of them are F2P), that would not be the case in RDO/GTAO. You can't cash out in a virtual casino game, but you can cash out in RDO/GTAO. Not for real money, but unlike those casino games the in-game money has a lot of users outside the casino. You'd get people buying shark cards and then dumping it all on red in the hope they'll win and can buy a more expensive vehicle or whatever. That's not a good look for Rockstar in the current climate of lootboxes and microtransactions, it's certainly not something a video game developer should be encouraging.

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Mr Fyn666
3 minutes ago, 1898 said:

I'm not totally understanding what you're saying or what differences you're talking about.

 

If we can buy chips that will be used ONLY for RDR poker, fine, I'll probably play.  If I have to use the same money I spent hours grinding for only to have a couple propeller-beanie wearing pricks fleece me of it, I won't be playing.  I'll be saving up for a ranch or paddlewheel boat etc. 

 

Here's another thought based on party chat, which we agree is a deal breaker...

 

How about when a game starts, there is an automatic mute function in the code?

 

I'm not tech savvie but should be fairly easy to immpliment...

 

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1898
7 minutes ago, Mr Fyn666 said:

 

Here's another thought based on party chat, which we agree is a deal breaker...

 

How about when a game starts, there is an automatic mute function in the code?

 

I'm not tech savvie but should be fairly easy to immpliment...

 

I agree with that.

 

When I first brought this up, I was talking about online poker in general. I'm not sure where it's legal since I would never play, not good enough, but 2 people with their iPhones could do the same thing. I know that may be extreme or paranoid thinking for RDR, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited by 1898

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P.T.

Maybe they could just have two separate currencies . Money for in game stuff and ships for the gambling games. The chips you could not be able to purchase and maybe you earn them from doing jobs, daily log ins. I could see the daily log ins as alot of games focused on Micros are doing this now. It gives you incentive to come back each day that you can. There hope is then maybe you will see something else you want to buy and spend real money for that currency. 

 

 

All i know is , if there is not some form of online poker...... its going to be a huge let down and missing piece of a western game imo. Hopefully they will do it this way at the least of . Surely they will not leave it out. Im pretty sure that RDR Online had it in it ( been so long ago since i played) . So to not have it in game somehow would be a mistake .

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Mr Fyn666
1 minute ago, 1898 said:

I agree with that.

 

When I first brought this up, I was talking about online poker in general. I'm not sure where it's legal since I would never play, not good enough, but 2 people with their iPhones could do the same thing. I know that may be extreme or paranoid thinking for RDR, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Legal issues would be a huge problem and I would not like to be a member of R*'s legal team...

 

Gambling laws across the world are very different but also very similar.. Tough laws, extremely tough penalties for misuse and even tougher to get a gambling licence...

 

We have issues with age restrictions, locality, collusion etc... 

 

As mentioned in my earlier post, as well as others, real money stakes will never be an option and as such the only option left is our "grinding money"

 

 

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Anonamix

How has Prominence Poker ported to consoles as a free to play gambling game with microtransactions?  Not to mention the 1000s of free gambling games you can get on your phone..  The difference is RDR2 is actually for adults.  Maybe the issue is with the ESRB?  IDK,  it just seems like there are already a lot of options already on the market why target RDR2?  Actually curious.

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