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BretMaverick777

Do I Know You...? Josiah Trelawny Discussion Thread

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BretMaverick777

 

So, let's talk about the white-gloved, top-hat elephant in the room, now that Dutch's Gang roster has been revealed. 

Josiah Trelawny:   is he, or isn't he...? 

Z1tTUib.jpg

nA6zln4.jpg

 

I've seen the discussion already starting about who Josiah Trelawny is.  We haven't seen his presence at all in any of the trailers or screenshots yet, certainly not in any of the camp scenes.   It's hard to even imagine what his role in the gang is.  He doesn't seem to be a gunfighter, since almost all the other gang members are shown with a likely weapon in hand -- even Pearson's cleaver and Lil Jack's stick.  Trelawny isn't even wearing a gun. 

 

And what's with the quote?  "How can romance ever be silly?  It's all we have."   Seriously, tf does romance have to do with outlaws on the run?  

 

Is he a writer?  Poet?  Journalist?  Did he join the gang to write Dutch's bio, or some kind of dime store novels about the gang's legendary exploits?  Is he Dutch's PR guy?  Again, what's the deal with romance?  Is he smitten with someone?  Maybe betrothed to a girl named....Heidi McCourt? 

 

The Strange Man, from RDR1.  Everybody's been asking, ever since news broke that RDR2 would be about Dutch's Gang:  The Early Days.  Would we finally learn the truth about how John got his scars?  How he left the gang?  And who's Heidi McCourt?  More to the point, who is The Strange Man? 

 

If Josiah Trelawny is damned to become a ghost, what anchors him to the soul of John Marston?  The Strange Man doesn't even remember his own name.  He has regrets.  He seems to resent John Marston, while at the same time fervently wanting him to do the right thing in his quest for redemption.  

vDwWwAb.jpg

 

Is this Josiah Trelawny, then?   Are the secrets about to unfold?

What's your take?

vXsg4EH.jpg

Edited by BretMaverick777

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smithy2009

Maybe he's obsessed with Abigail and the gang, especially John don't take too kindly too him. 

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Fluffy Sock

John seems to know nothing about the I Know You gentleman. Not even a vague memory, which is the least he can have when it comes to a former gang member.

 

I think this Josiah guy is an easter egg, that's it. Not the same person, or soul, or whatever. The name sounds Czech, or Polish, btw. Another European seeking for wild west experiences wouldn't surprise me.

Edited by Fluffy Sock

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Pedinhuh

They're definitely not the same guy or John would have recognized him in RDR. 

 

Dude looks like a writter to me, or at least his quote makes me think so.

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Cutter De Blanc
Quote

Josiah Trelawny: A flamboyant conjurer, conman and trickster, Trelawny is a very hard man to pin down but he’s always able to bring good leads.

 

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damienrayemusic

His description makes me think R* knows we think he is the strange man... "Conjurer, conman, trickster" these are all words to do with deceit and illusion. Which my theory is that John "sees" him as a hallucination or something. John's past is catching up to him and he knows it, he may even be traumatized a little . I also think that Arthur will see Josiah for real but, maybe he dies and maybe John has something to do with it..? Who knows!!! 

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BretMaverick777
2 hours ago, damienrayemusic said:

His description makes me think R* knows we think he is the strange man... "Conjurer, conman, trickster" these are all words to do with deceit and illusion. Which my theory is that John "sees" him as a hallucination or something. John's past is catching up to him and he knows it, he may even be traumatized a little . I also think that Arthur will see Josiah for real but, maybe he dies and maybe John has something to do with it..? Who knows!!! 

My take on it is Trelawny is a real gang member, and an actual conjurer/stage magician, per his bio.  I believe he's engaged to Heidi McCourt. While Dutch will be responsible for Heidi's death, I think John will kill Trelawny.  Might be to save Dutch's life, if Trelawny seeks revenge on him.  I also think Trelawny will manage to implant a post-hypnotic suggestion in John's mind that forever brands the deepest recesses of his memory with that guilt.  It will all get triggered 5 years later, when John is forced to relive all that again.

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Haha365
9 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

My take on it is Trelawny is a real gang member, and an actual conjurer/stage magician, per his bio.  I believe he's engaged to Heidi McCourt. While Dutch will be responsible for Heidi's death, I think John will kill Trelawny.  Might be to save Dutch's life, if Trelawny seeks revenge on him.  I also think Trelawny will manage to implant a post-hypnotic suggestion in John's mind that forever brands the deepest recesses of his memory with that guilt.  It will all get triggered 5 years later, when John is forced to relive all that again.

Wow,  that's an interesting theory. 

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Juan marstoon

Im glad this topic has opened. Y'all got interesting ideas. Like I said in the Discussion and Speculation, Trelawny seems to be based on this guy btw: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_John_Trelawny He's a british romantic writer from the nineteenth century. 

 

"There have been six biographies written about Trelawny. The characterizations of him vary greatly. Several of the authors were negative in their portrayal of him, others presented a favourable romantic portrait, and some have presented a mixed picture of his character."

 

It is said on his wikipedia page he went to America, although "It is unknown exactly what he did in late 1833 early 1834, some have speculated that he made plans to build a utopian community". 

 

Edited by Juan marstoon

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silly_nate

We can wait for a trailer to match the voices 👌🏻 Until then I don’t know what to believe. I want to believe it’s him because John’s forgotten more important people than him, but how could he not remember someone from the gang? 😫

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BretMaverick777
24 minutes ago, silly_nate said:

We can wait for a trailer to match the voices 👌🏻 Until then I don’t know what to believe. I want to believe it’s him because John’s forgotten more important people than him, but how could he not remember someone from the gang? 😫

Magic.

61voCMy.jpg

54 minutes ago, Juan marstoon said:

Im glad this topic has opened. Y'all got interesting ideas. Like I said in the Discussion and Speculation, Trelawny seems to be based on this guy btw: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_John_Trelawny He's a british romantic writer from the nineteenth century. 

 

"There have been six biographies written about Trelawny. The characterizations of him vary greatly. Several of the authors were negative in their portrayal of him, others presented a favourable romantic portrait, and some have presented a mixed picture of his character."

 

It is said on his wikipedia page he went to America, although "It is unknown exactly what he did in late 1833 early 1834, some have speculated that he made plans to build a utopian community". 

 

Separated by a few decades, but yeah, I can see him being an inspiration for our Trelawny.   Maybe a bit of Houdini in there, too; a little Blackstone; some Henry Higgins....definitely detectable traces of Phileas Fogg. 

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WhiskeyHick
3 hours ago, BretMaverick777 said:

My take on it is Trelawny is a real gang member, and an actual conjurer/stage magician, per his bio.  I believe he's engaged to Heidi McCourt. While Dutch will be responsible for Heidi's death, I think John will kill Trelawny.  Might be to save Dutch's life, if Trelawny seeks revenge on him.  I also think Trelawny will manage to implant a post-hypnotic suggestion in John's mind that forever brands the deepest recesses of his memory with that guilt.  It will all get triggered 5 years later, when John is forced to relive all that again.

I really enjoy this as an option, the suggestion is a wonderful touch. I'm hoping they stray away from the old hokey traveling stage act and instead bring the same ambience of Nolan's The Prestige with an unknowing yet mysterious and malevolent undertone dragging the character in an undertow, and us with it. 

Edited by WhiskeyHick

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BretMaverick777
21 minutes ago, WhiskeyHick said:

I really enjoy this as an option, the suggestion is a wonderful touch. I'm hoping they stray away from the old hokey traveling stage act and instead bring the same ambience of Nolan's The Prestige with an unknowing yet mysterious and malevolent undertone dragging the character in an undertow, and us with it. 

We already have the quasi-Tesla in place, with his steampunk sci-fi gadgetry...I could definitely see this guy working with Trelawny to come up with some "conjuring" that combines science and mysticism for the magician.   This could get real funky real quick. 😀

hnSXspV.jpg

 

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WhiskeyHick
14 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

We already have the quasi-Tesla in place, with his steampunk sci-fi gadgetry...I could definitely see this guy working with Trelawny to come up with some "conjuring" that combines science and mysticism for the magician.   This could get real funky real quick. 😀

 

UrCXKJe

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Cutter De Blanc

What if Josiah is really magic

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The FoolYT

Well if it turns out he is the strange man, than my theory would be that this guy only interacts with certain gang members or doesn't talk too much to people hence why John Marston doesn't know who he is.

 

The theory that suggests that this guy is magical or has some elements like that is really plausible because the Strange man directed John to do some quests or help out people that John couldn't have had knowledge on. 

 

Josiah could also be an hallucination that tries to encourage John to do more positive things, a sub-conscious of sorts. (In those character bios, it says John is one of Dutch's prodigies but John also has a wife and son so maybe Josiah tries to convince John to look out for his family more.The romance part of his quote could refer to Johns love to abigail ?) 

 

There is a chance that the resemblance is purely coincidental but after looking back on it a bit, this guy could be the strange man.

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Cutter De Blanc

You can see Josiah at 2:17 in the gameplay trailer

gKqKAk7.jpg

I think that's him

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Ticko

Based on his clothes, moustache and even his face although with this next gen version and twelve years younger he will look a little bit different as does John, Dutch and everybody else. I think it's him and I wonder what his relation is going to be like to Arthur. 

 

About John not recognizing him, maybe Josiah joined the gang after John was left behind for dead. 

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BretMaverick777
11 hours ago, Cutter De Blanc said:

You can see Josiah at 2:17 in the gameplay trailer

gKqKAk7.jpg

I think that's him

Could be.  I've also seen Pearson wearing a top hat, so...just saiyan 

18 minutes ago, Ticko said:

Based on his clothes, moustache and even his face although with this next gen version and twelve years younger he will look a little bit different as does John, Dutch and everybody else. I think it's him and I wonder what his relation is going to be like to Arthur. 

 

About John not recognizing him, maybe Josiah joined the gang after John was left behind for dead. 

Could be that.

Even in RDR1, and even before John's bullets went right through The Stranger, I was already harboring the ghost theory.  The Stranger's pale face, sunken and blacked eyes always suggested "undead" to me.  If Josiah dies in RDR2 and comes back to haunt John in RDR1, that would be a legit story excuse for the slight differences in facial characteristics. 

 

For me, the voice actor will be the deciding factor.  R* probably knows that would be the biggest giveaway, so they'd try to hide that.

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Ticko
17 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Could be.  I've also seen Pearson wearing a top hat, so...just saiyan 

Could be that.

Even in RDR1, and even before John's bullets went right through The Stranger, I was already harboring the ghost theory.  The Stranger's pale face, sunken and blacked eyes always suggested "undead" to me.  If Josiah dies in RDR2 and comes back to haunt John in RDR1, that would be a legit story excuse for the slight differences in facial characteristics. 

 

For me, the voice actor will be the deciding factor.  R* probably knows that would be the biggest giveaway, so they'd try to hide that.

Yeah I forgot about John's bullets going through The Stranger. And I like the Josiah dying in RDR2 to haunt John in RDR 1 theory and think it's very possible. 

 

Josiah is being kept in the background a lot so I hope we will see more of him in the coming trailers. But I think they will keep him a mystery for now. 

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lupolvinho

This thread made me come back from the grave of years of innactivity to say more baseless toughts.
First of all, the strange man theme seems to be religion and marriage vows. Therefore, faith. So i think he will be just as troubled as everyone else in the gang, faith is a though thing, in your wife/husband, afterlife, the gang, very romantic and emotional.
About his involvement with the gang i think he's going to be more of a freelancer that sometimes gets approched or approaches the gang with business opportunities, that's what i've gathered from "a hard man to pin down". Now, his appearance in RDR puts John in a very aware state, he treats him in a different way from other strangers, as if something about him really made his skin crawl. This awarenes turns stright into fear as he ends up shooting him twice in the back, cowardly in a way we never see him do in cutscenes.
So i have two theories. One that John does remember him but in a unconsious way, remembers him from the times he was in the camp but is somehow traumatized from the events with Heidi (which i'm 100% sure poor Trelawny had some relation to, and 100% sure he saw the damage firsthand.). So in the end: Heidi ends up dead at the hands of Dutch. Trelawny ends up dead somehow. Marston ends up traumatized (and possibly with Beecher's Hope under his name, let's not forget the strange tophat wearing, mustache bearing man we can see a portrait of in the main bedroom.) and then is haunted by his benevolent spirit, who believes Marston is a kind man and tries to show him virtues that could lead him to a more fullfiling life and to aid his redemption. That hauting being something spiritual or psycological open to debate.
The second one is that Trelawny is still alive, seeking a very specific, nonchalant revenge upon Marston and finds a way to make him feel unconfortable and to question his deeds. Survived the bullets by being a magician, getting shot at and nothing happening is an actual real-life trick if i'm not mistaken. And let's not forget that Revolver might still be cannon so teleportation is an actual thing i sh*t you not(Professor Perry).

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Kallonkutistaja

gang fell apart.

josiah is conjurer/ trickster etc so he hypnotized john to forget to cover his/ other gang members tracks so nobody comes after him (prolly he didnt like bill/javier so they werent erased from johns memory or som sh*t.)  when john tries to shoot real ammunition is changed to blanks at some point . you know conjuring tricks and so on ..

In introducion is talked about -how romance can ever be silly-,  .its related to "do i know you" missions when he is worried bout the guys marriage who is in thieves landing bar, it about his character. and now he is just messing around with john just for fun xD 200iq

Edited by Kallonkutistaja

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BUT THE BENZ

I thought the DO I KNOW YOU guy was god?!

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1898

I always thought of him as a fallen angel sent back with a second chance to make things right, at least with John. Similar to Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.

Edited by 1898

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BretMaverick777
4 hours ago, BUT THE BENZ said:

I thought the DO I KNOW YOU guy was god?!

God or Satan are popular theories, even if polar opposites.  I never bought into that simply cuz John isn't an important enough man to play Book of Job over.  Dutch, maybe...not John.

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Jabalous

A far-fetched theory, I'd say. The I Know You man is better left to be the mystery of John's adventure. How about Arthur's adventure gets its own mystery, too? 

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BretMaverick777
1 hour ago, Efreet said:

A far-fetched theory, I'd say. The I Know You man is better left to be the mystery of John's adventure. How about Arthur's adventure gets its own mystery, too? 

Who says it doesn't...? 

 

For that matter, the one who's most deserving of a good haunting and/or morality play is Dutch VDL

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Mafia Assassin®

I think it's not a coincidence both Strange man and Josiah wear the same clothes, same hat and same moustache, they are related in some way. I believe it's John subconscious speaking to him, which would explain why he couldn't get shot by John. He and John are probably not close in the Gang, which would also explain why John couldn't remember him.

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Mr. Jabe

To preface this post, I seriously doubt Josiah Trelawny is anything to do with the Strange Man. And if you consider speculation potentially spoiler-worthy then don't read this!

 

That being said......

 

I just turned on RDR on my 360 again. By coincidence my non-completed save file had me during the Mexico part of the story. And the next mission available was "Landon Ricketts Rides Again". Where you go and save Luisa Fortuna from the Mexican army. 

 

So anyway, I completed the mission and at the end it leaves you out in the eastern part of Nuevo Paraiso. So I checked my map to see which direction the nearest settlement was and I saw the question mark icon nearby. Which I knew to be the second part of the "I Know You" stranger mission. 

 

So out of curiosity - especially considering some of the speculation on here recently - I travelled to where he was camped and let the cutscene play out. As we all know probably too well, he talks about John shooting up peasants when he first came to Mexico, how he handled the cheating husband situation in Thieve's Landing and then tells him about the charity-seeking Nun by the monastery.

 

But there was one thing he said that jumped out at me. He says to John, "I hope my boy turns out just like you".

 

Now that I remember, that line was always the one thing that meant I could never 100% believe the strange man was just some ethereal entity; a god or an angel. The way he says "my boy" is the one thing that really suggests he is (or once was) a particular living person.

 

And so we come to the recently posted character descriptions. And not mainly to Trelawny's but to little Jack Marston's. Sure, Rockstar do so name him Marston. But in the description it only mentions his mother (the one truly undeniable parent of any child), Abigail. And she herself is not even yet married to John.

 

As to Trelawney he of course is quoted, "How can romance ever be silly? It's all we have". Which as some here have already said suggests a liking for writing and literature. And which little boy do we know would grow up also to find passion in pen and paper?

 

So that's all I have to say. As I said at the start I don't truly believe in all this. If Trelawny is of an important relation to Marston's gang then it would be hard to imagine forgetting his particular appearance. Or that Rockstar would want to solidify such a previously ambiguous identity. But as the Strange Man says to Marston, "You've forgotten far more important people than me"..........

 

 

 

 

 

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BretMaverick777
10 hours ago, Mr. Jabe said:

To preface this post, I seriously doubt Josiah Trelawny is anything to do with the Strange Man. And if you consider speculation potentially spoiler-worthy then don't read this!

 

That being said......

 

I just turned on RDR on my 360 again. By coincidence my non-completed save file had me during the Mexico part of the story. And the next mission available was "Landon Ricketts Rides Again". Where you go and save Luisa Fortuna from the Mexican army. 

 

So anyway, I completed the mission and at the end it leaves you out in the eastern part of Nuevo Paraiso. So I checked my map to see which direction the nearest settlement was and I saw the question mark icon nearby. Which I knew to be the second part of the "I Know You" stranger mission. 

 

So out of curiosity - especially considering some of the speculation on here recently - I travelled to where he was camped and let the cutscene play out. As we all know probably too well, he talks about John shooting up peasants when he first came to Mexico, how he handled the cheating husband situation in Thieve's Landing and then tells him about the charity-seeking Nun by the monastery.

 

But there was one thing he said that jumped out at me. He says to John, "I hope my boy turns out just like you".

 

Now that I remember, that line was always the one thing that meant I could never 100% believe the strange man was just some ethereal entity; a god or an angel. The way he says "my boy" is the one thing that really suggests he is (or once was) a particular living person.

 

And so we come to the recently posted character descriptions. And not mainly to Trelawny's but to little Jack Marston's. Sure, Rockstar do so name him Marston. But in the description it only mentions his mother (the one truly undeniable parent of any child), Abigail. And she herself is not even yet married to John.

 

As to Trelawney he of course is quoted, "How can romance ever be silly? It's all we have". Which as some here have already said suggests a liking for writing and literature. And which little boy do we know would grow up also to find passion in pen and paper?

 

So that's all I have to say. As I said at the start I don't truly believe in all this. If Trelawny is of an important relation to Marston's gang then it would be hard to imagine forgetting his particular appearance. Or that Rockstar would want to solidify such a previously ambiguous identity. But as the Strange Man says to Marston, "You've forgotten far more important people than me"..........

 

 

 

 

 

It's fascinating to see that, whether you believe Trelawny is the Stranger or not, Trelawny is already a mysterious enough figure to spark lots of conversation and conjecture.  He's going to be a real enigma, regardless of his connection to John's Stranger or lack thereof. 

 

On a more down-to-earth level:   do you think Trelawny's stage magic will be useful to the gang, in terms of distraction, illusion, and sleight of hand during heists, or even simple magic tricks and three-card monte games?   Remember the "Now You See Me" movies...?  The art of illusion was extremely useful to their elaborate modern day heists....do you think Rockstar is going for that angle with Trelawny?  And if so, what kind of diabolical tricks do y'all think he has up his sleeve?

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