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BretMaverick777

Dutch's Gang: The Unsung (Speculation)

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BretMaverick777

Okay, this has been bothering me somewhat, for a lil bit. 

 

What do we know of the roster of Dutch's Gang so far? 

 

Confirmed:

 

Dutch Van Der Linde

Arthur Morgan

John Marston

Javier Escuella

Bill Williamson

Sadie Adler

Hosea Matthews

Charles Smith

Sean McGuire

Lenny

Micah Bell

Karen

Pearson

 

But.  The trailers and screenshots show MORE gang members.   Maybe more than you realize.   And they don't have names yet. 

 

Now, I'm not implying that any of these are playable.  Some *look* like they're accompanying Arthur on missions; others are seen only in camp.  So it's possible there will be some members of the gang who are strictly "camp followers" -- NPCs who just send you on side quests, and/or handle headquarters amenities, like a cook, healer, armorer, blacksmith, carpenter, tailor, accountant, and the like.   I'd be willing to bet Pearson the Cook is one such, who won't be available for actual missions, but can send you on ingredient hunts to fill recipes and can also make foodstuffs you can use on your journeys (hardtack? coffee?  whiskey? jerky?  Messin' With Squatch)

 

But here's some of the guys and gals I'm talking about.

 

First, the spectacled guy who looks like the camp doctor.  And/or resident scientist/know-it-all.  I'm guessing he's a busy man, pulling out bullets, stitching up open wounds, finding cures for the clap.  Or maybe he's just the accountant who keeps track of the ledger.  (I hear your name's in it, boi.) 

iGL4LUI.jpg

 

5eIrrLB.jpgoF12H70.jpg

 

Second, this guy.  Imma just call him Slim for now.   He definitely looks like a gunfighter, he definitely looks like he rides with the gang on missions, and he definitely doesn't look like anybody else we know in the gang yet. 

 

pjYnSDf.jpgsJvUmup.jpg

Edited by BretMaverick777

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BretMaverick777

Third, there's this lady.

uojZAZf.jpg

A lot of fans ID her as Karen.   Strongly doubt that's the case.

In that same group pic, behind Bill: 

txwaZ7h.jpg

Now THAT'S Karen, fo sho...our fiery redheaded madam. 

QCIq7cz.jpg

So the older, matronly, heavyset lady to the left of the group pic, with the streaks of grey...is this her, too, in the snow cabin scene? 

2O55y8T.jpguojZAZf.jpg

 

I'd say the skunk stripes are unmistakable.   Could she be like a tailor?  Seamstress? How about..."Mrs. Taylor."

Edited by BretMaverick777

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BretMaverick777

Fourth:  

is there more than one Native American in the gang, besides Charles Smith?  Would make sense, given that Dutch organizes a whole tribe of Apache later on in RDR1. 

 

This guy doesn't have Charles' mohawk, but braids instead.   He looks more like a Plains Indian, maybe Lakota or Cheyenne, while Charles Smith is likely a "civilized" Indian, maybe from the Cherokee or Seminole tribe.

841grg9.jpg

"Scout" seems to favor a sawed-off shotgun.  And the guy riding behind him?  I'm thinking Sean the Irishman, but this is possibly another unidentified gang member as well.

 

6MOzxuw.jpg

Then this guy, Unidentified Gang Member #5 or 6, with the studly leather and the tattoos on his bare chest.  It's not Javier (who's seen elsewhere in this larger photo).  I wouldn't reckon Charles Smith, unless he grows out his mohawk (HIGHLY unlikely...insulting his own tribe?).   So "Lobo" seems to be either another Native American or another Mexican.

Edited by BretMaverick777

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BretMaverick777

I'll group #6, 7 and 8 in a group pic, since this shot from the snowy mountain retreat where Dutch implores them to "STAY...WITH...MAY" has all kinds of people we don't know.

pjdb1QJ.jpg

We can say for sure that Pearson's over there looking like Dennis Franz, or pretending to be a roadie for Metallica.   And Uncle is unmistakable, leaning against the chair, either because he's bad hurt or bad drunk.   I've already discussed Doc, to the left, and Mrs. Taylor, holding the lantern.   That leaves:

 

#6 -- behind Doc.  A young woman.  Possibly Sadie, but that's a real long shot....this girl looks almost like she's in some kind of nun's habit.   No idea.

 

#7 -- Edward James Olmos.  Between Uncle and Pearson.  Never seen him before....glasses, handlebar mustache.  Is he latino?  Can't tell.

 

#8 -- black girl, to the right.  Also looks like she's wearing a nun's habit.   Is this some sort of wilderness convent or church?  Could the girls be nuns, and the Edward James Olmos guy be a priest?   Just guessing.   And maybe they're just NPC encounters, not actually part of the gang at all.....tbh, that would be my guess here.  In any event, this looks like a strictly support crew, nobody who goes on active missions.  

 

 

 

 

Finally, I'll go with #9(ish), just because she looks like a whole lot of fun at parties.

 

8WF4Ety.jpg

Edited by BretMaverick777

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1898

Here's what I wrote a while back about the mountain retreat pic - 

 

Dude on far left - educated New York dandy looking for adventure        **Now that you mention it, doctor makes sense**

 

 Woman holding the lantern - the Ma Barker of the gang                         **she just has that look**

 

3rd guy from right - European immigrant                                                   **based on the 3 Musketeers hat and stache**

 

Edited by 1898

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BretMaverick777
11 minutes ago, 1898 said:

Here's what I wrote a while back about the mountain retreat pic - 

 

Dude on far left - educated New York dandy looking for adventure  **Now that you mention it, doctor makes sense**

 

Woman holding the lantern - the Ma Barker of the gang

 

3rd guy from right - European immigrant

 

Yeah, she's got that Ma Barker vibe....probably the mother figure of the gang, talks sense into Dutch and Arthur whenever they get too crazy, keeps morale up, offers motherly advice.  And probably a seamstress, too --- the one you go to for costume changes and customizing.

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zachsterosu
On 7/11/2018 at 6:47 PM, BretMaverick777 said:

Fourth:  

is there more than one Native American in the gang, besides Charles Smith?  Would make sense, given that Dutch organizes a whole tribe of Apache later on in RDR1. 

 

This guy doesn't have Charles' mohawk, but braids instead.   He looks more like a Plains Indian, maybe Lakota or Cheyenne, while Charles Smith is likely a "civilized" Indian, maybe from the Cherokee or Seminole tribe.

841grg9.jpg

"Scout" seems to favor a sawed-off shotgun.  And the guy riding behind him?  I'm thinking Sean the Irishman, but this is possibly another unidentified gang member as well.

 

6MOzxuw.jpg

Then this guy, Unidentified Gang Member #5 or 6, with the studly leather and the tattoos on his bare chest.  It's not Javier (who's seen elsewhere in this larger photo).  I wouldn't reckon Charles Smith, unless he grows out his mohawk (HIGHLY unlikely...insulting his own tribe?).   So "Lobo" seems to be either another Native American or another Mexican.

You sure that first dude isn't Charles? From what I've seen, he's got two different hairstyles. The overcoat looks different from his blue one, but that vest and the hat seem to match imo.

Zh2dp6Ch.png

 

I think this is him as well, closer to how he looks in that screenshot.

8T1a9Gah.png

 

For reference:

Bjlou4Bh.png

Edited by zachsterosu

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BretMaverick777
4 minutes ago, zachsterosu said:

You sure that first dude isn't Charles? From what I've seen, he's got two different hairstyles. The overcoat looks different from his blue one, but that vest and the hat seem to match imo.

Zh2dp6Ch.png

 

I think this is him as well, closer to how he looks in that screenshot.

8T1a9Gah.png

 

For reference:

Bjlou4Bh.png

Good read.

I'm willing to concede that's ALL Charles Smith, and he gets more and more in touch with his native roots as the story progresses.  Longer hair, braids, the tattoos....the sawed-off shotgun is the constant in all those photos. 

 

Still, kinda sad to see that, so far, only one "token Indian" exists in an era where both reservation and free Natives should still be plentiful in the Wild West.

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zachsterosu
Just now, BretMaverick777 said:

Good read.

I'm willing to concede that's ALL Charles Smith, and he gets more and more in touch with his native roots as the story progresses.  Longer hair, braids, the tattoos....the sawed-off shotgun is the constant in all those photos. 

 

Still, kinda sad to see that, so far, only one "token Indian" exists in an era where both reservation and free Natives should still be plentiful in the Wild West.

Yeah, I know you've got a lot of insight into Native heritage, etc. I'm sorry I keep finding your new threads and trying to question all your points lol. Seriously though, I really like the interesting discussions you're bringing up with these, so keep 'em coming.

 

To answer your point, I'm sure we'll see far more natives in-game, probably at least 1 or 2 more in Dutch's gang. Honestly I feel like there's really only 8 or 9 main members(those mentioned in the previews), but then we'll have a handful of npcs that just run with the gang and act as guards for the camp, among other things.

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BretMaverick777
9 minutes ago, zachsterosu said:

Yeah, I know you've got a lot of insight into Native heritage, etc. I'm sorry I keep finding your new threads and trying to question all your points lol. Seriously though, I really like the interesting discussions you're bringing up with these, so keep 'em coming.

 

To answer your point, I'm sure we'll see far more natives in-game, probably at least 1 or 2 more in Dutch's gang. Honestly I feel like there's really only 8 or 9 main members(those mentioned in the previews), but then we'll have a handful of npcs that just run with the gang and act as guards for the camp, among other things.

Tbh, I sincerely believe R* have a whole DLC pack devoted to NBN (Nuthin But Natives).  Maybe 3 or 4 different tribes of the northern and southern Plains, like Lakota, Cheyenne, Blackfoot, Apache, Crow.  And a mini-campaign to go with, as those tribes go off the reservation and unite for a Ghost Dance type uprising.  This could nicely dovetail into Dutch's transition from RDR2 bandit king to RDR1 renegade chief.  Dances With Wolves, but with a crazy ass gunslinger instead of an idealistic cavalry officer.

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SneakyDeaky

Great thread and comments. Here's my loose theory on the start of the game in relation to those characters:

I believe that the Van Der Linde gang at the start of the game live in a sort of town/settlement that is fully run and governed by the gang. Here's why, because if you look at the Grizzlies on the leaked map, there are some interesting things:

 

2nalj0i.jpg

So you have Sadie Adler and maybe her family's ranch. You have a gang camp called Colter and there is also a cluster of buildings that I have circled. Plus a rail track close by which I will get back to.  And then there's the whole "intro" marker for this area. So, my idea is, this town/settlement is the homebase for the gang and its support at the start of the game. If the Van Der Linde gang have been terrorizing West Elizabeth for years then they must have had a proper hideout all that time, but with a gang this size, they would need doctors, chefs, seamstresses, possibly a blacksmith, harlots, and some of these people, even some in the gang, could have wives, lovers, they need to all be supported. A gathering this big needs more than just a hideout in a cave, they need a proper town and ranches, maybe even a treasury of sorts, I assume money makes its way to everyone around the settlement as long as everyone has a role to play, a job to do. And they may even need a small church. Or the town perhaps already had one before the gang took it over or rebuilt it.

I think the gang goes back to Blackwater after the failed heist but something else happens; they are warned or threatened or chased out of Blackwater and it's something to do with this man:
25z2zxl.png

 

Whatever happens, the gang retreats back to it's little Libertalia for a while. Things calm down. But times are tough, the weather has been cruel that year, the treasury is running low and the gang needs to do a robbery, but they can't go back to West Elizabeth so they do something desperate and impulsive, they rob a train a little too close to home. 
244baz4.png

 

This draws the heat straight to them. It could even have been a set-up from a spy, but now the bounty hunters have found the gang's hideout, which I think forces Dutch to make the decision to pack up and bring the gang with him out into the New Hanover. And this shot likely comes from scenes of Dutch pleading with much of the settlement to stick with him and see this through.

1602654.png

When some of the more "innocent" people, the doctors, tailors, chefs, and their possible families, get caught in some of the crossfire, that's when sh*t will get very, very serious. 

Edited by SneakyDeaky

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BretMaverick777

I'm good with most of your scenario.

 

I don't think a "bandit kingdom" is necessarily it, though...I think just a basic but comfortable base of ops.  The INTRO on the Grizzlies map is a safe indicator the story actually begins here, maybe as a tutorial for new players; but definitely not the start of Dutch's Gang's story.  Hell, Dutch is a lifer, seems to have started crime even before 1878, so the gang's already notorious from the get-go. I believe the Blackwater Massacre marks the first real failure for the gang, and the right place to start witnessing their long downhill run to ruin. 

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BretMaverick777
5 hours ago, SneakyDeaky said:


I think the gang goes back to Blackwater after the failed heist but something else happens; they are warned or threatened or chased out of Blackwater and it's something to do with this man:
25z2zxl.png

 

 

Imma call him Mr. Cornwall. 

I think he'll be the key villain.  A billionaire industrialist; oil man whose holdings extend into railroads, banks and stage freight, by necessity to support his other enterprises.  That makes him a favorite target of Dutch's Gang, and he retaliates with Blackrose bounty hunters to launch an all-out war on these bandits who venerate savagery. 

Edited by BretMaverick777

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BretMaverick777

I'm ready to commit to another possible gang member, or at least support NPC.  

Imma call him "Preacher." 

Zwlfl9g.jpgVDRybrq.jpg

 

The hat on the right and the collar on the left are very typical of a circuit rider in the 19th century.   I'd suggest either a Presbyterian, Lutheran or Methodist, but leaning towards the first two.  The ginger hair and mustache suggest a German or a Scottish immigrant, imho.   I'm not 100% about the identity of this guy, but he definitely shows up as support in at least two gang hideout pictures, shown above.   I'd say he's the camp chaplain, and the unofficial therapist who tries to keep the gang on the straight and narrow as much as possible.   (Losing battle, would be my guess.)

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Mattdrenaline

A lot of work went into this. Nice job good read

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