Have a Question? V3

[Fonz]

 

Yeah, but the funniest thing is that the people who support the view that anyone who isn't a college graduate is only good for flipping burgers will probably be off to flip burgers themselves, with the added knowledge that not only did they spend thousands of dollars and some years reading manuals that are publicly available for pennies (in comparison), but also that they put down someone else and then ended up just the way they described. But, hey, at least they'll have that degree, huh?

Most people go to college and still don't get an education, sure. But if you think you can receive a good education without going to university, you obviously don't have one.

Only if you're unintelligent, uncreative and have no notion of self-reliance or what studying actually means. Considering that you believe one has to pay thousands for publicly accessible information to be "adequate", that description seems to apply.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Black_MiD

[sivispacem]

If you think that you can gain the same level of subject matter understanding from browsing libraries and academic papers available on the internet as you can from a three year undergraduate degree, you either have little to no experience of higher education or studied at a really sh*t university.

[Fonz]

Ill only go to college next year, yet Ive already been through the contents of my future degree, read and analysed all the selected manuals, papers and designated novels. I can also discuss all these matters with most graduates (I regularly do).

[Otter]

Not sure I agree with that assessment at all, sivi - at least not without allowing for some rather significant outliers and other outsiders.

 

Furthermore, (not directed at you sivi) the idea that a higher education is the defining factor in one's success, financial or otherwise, is - and I don't use the term lightly - incredibly naive. And even further; the notion that we should be happy to let the less educated live in squalor is, frankly, disgusting.

[Dingdongs]

Not sure I agree with that assessment at all, sivi - at least not without allowing for some rather significant outliers and other outsiders.

 

Furthermore, (not directed at you sivi) the idea that a higher education is the defining factor in one's success, financial or otherwise, is - and I don't use the term lightly - incredibly naive. And even further; the notion that we should be happy to let the less educated live in squalor is, frankly, disgusting.

fact is at the end of the day you need to get a degree and get an education to be successful in today's world if you are not going into a trade.

[Otter]

Or, like most of the middle class, skate by on a token education and family money.

 

I'll never suggest that a college degree isn't worth it. But it's not the only path to success (most people I know who live comfortable lives inherited it from their parents) and it's certainly not a guarantee for a decent career.

 

I've worked, very successfully, freelance for the past decade in the creative industry (one of the last that we'll see automated, by the way:p) and now I'm running an animation studio gearing up for our first feature. Ask me how many times I've been asked to provide my transcripts.

 

I know that's not the path for everyone, and I appreciate the irony that I do have a degree, but the maxim that 'you can't get anywhere without post secondary education' is patently false.

[Fonz]

Otters got it right.

In Portugal there are entirely too many graduates and not nearly enough jobs, so much so, that most of our graduates have to resort to moving to England or Switzerland because they feel theyre "overqualified" for yhe jobs they can get here. Absolutely stupid.

Such a small country clearly does not require so many graduates in 3 fields. Everyone has to be a doctor nowadays, even if theyre absolute dolts wholl never even use those degrees.

(apostrophes are not showing up, for some reason)

Edited January 23, 2015 by Black_MiD

[Otter]

 

That's what it is... but there is a different word. I've been stuck on it for a week.

 

EDIT: Essentially "one-ups-manship" with weapons.

 

Only word I can think of that would fit and hasn't been mentioned is escalation.

 

Arms race? proliferation? Now I'm stuck in a loop too.

[sivispacem]

Not sure I agree with that assessment at all, sivi - at least not without allowing for some rather significant outliers and other outsiders.

Howso?

 

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that it's impossible to develop a higher level understanding of a subject matter independently without studying it at an undergraduate level or above. I'm suggesting that people who think simply reading up on a subject gives them a strong educational and analytic grounding in it either tend to have neither.

 

My point was specifically a response to the notion that you can develop the same understanding of subject matters from passively reading stuff that's available freely/cheaply as you can from a degree. In purely practical terms many probably could have but that's because they're not really committing to their studies and only studying for the sake of it, because of the false notion you can only have a decent career with one. I'd argue that a large proportion of graduates, particularly in humanities and social sciences, leave university with a degree (and sometimes quite a good one) but now real understanding of the subject they've studied.

 

Alien- are you thinking of "brinkmanship"?

[Otter]

Specifically, that there are many folks who have dropped out of university to eventually become celebrated writers, thinkers, philosophers by pursuing education on their own, attending public lectures, corresponding with like minds. No, the odds are not in your favor, and no, it's not likely you'll pursue the same level of enlightenment that a good university will thrust on to you - but it is possible and it's a viable option and a path that should be considered by those who honestly lack the means for a decent education.

 

I'm rather tired here but too wired for bed, so forgive a bit of rambling - but I wish more more people were proudly disagreeable. As you say, post secondary education fails a significantly large portion of students because they are simply going through the expected motions. I wish I had gone through University later in life; I would have challenged more, I would have engaged more deeply. The more people buck the trend, the less sway the pattern has over all of us.

 

Christ, that wan't just rambley but damned near GrandMaster Smithy. Sorry. i do understand where you're coming from - I just find that there's an arrogance that swings from both directions. I despise academic elitism almost as much as I despise hearing about people's adventures in the 'school of hard knocks'.

[Fonz]

I agree on that last statement, honestly, but where do you think academic knowledge comes from? The analytic understanding of any subject is developed individually anyway - unless youre ready to accept anything a professor says, not bothering to develop a personal perspective, either. Your point about social sciences is correct, Id say - lots of my colleagues, whom I assume will pursue something related to social studies, havent read any of the essential material and are only going for passable grades. I mean, sometimes I kind of regret picking humanities, because I loved Chemistry and was great at science in general

[sivispacem]

Specifically, that there are many folks who have dropped out of university to eventually become celebrated writers, thinkers, philosophers by pursuing education on their own, attending public lectures, corresponding with like minds. No, the odds are not in your favor, and no, it's not likely you'll pursue the same level of enlightenment that a good university will thrust on to you - but it is possible and it's a viable option and a path that should be considered by those who honestly lack the means for a decent education.

True, but they're generally not naïvely dismissive of higher education as a whole. They might concede it wasn't for them, or say their own experiences of it were poor, but they won't basically just say it's useless. That's my point- not that people can't be successful without higher education, but that people who dismiss higher education as pointless and claim that they have as good an understanding of the subject from reading free articles and library books almost never do.

 

The analytic understanding of any subject is developed individually anyway - unless youre ready to accept anything a professor says, not bothering to develop a personal perspective, either.

I think you've missed my point here somewhat. The purpose of a professor, course leader etc is to give a basic grounding in the underlying theories and to encourage analytical thinking. If you're taking every word they say as canon, then you're doing exactly the opposite of what you should be.

 

The core subject matter understanding is important and to some degree you can obtain it from simple reading but it's the analysis and discourse around it which is what really matters. I've always taken particular issue with people who take humanities and complain about writing essays; the whole bloody point of university is to demonstrate high level understanding and higher order analysis skills and, quite frankly, you can't really do that without a subject matter expert to question and assess the validity of your reasoning and arguments. That's not something you get from passively reading. You might get it to dome degree from peer debate, but defending your analysis to an undergraduate peer and to a subject matter expert are two very different things.

[Otter]

I think we're probably both speaking off the cuff; check my last edit there.

 

I agree, certainly, that anyone who's wary of education for it's own sake is not to be trusted.

[Fonz]

@sivi

Well, thats a balanced point of view, unlike K^2s reductive, baseless statement, which was what prompted me to respond.

Now, the main reason Im going to college is the possibility of meeting like-minded people. Professors got their knowledge from reading and studying, as did their professors before them. Of course it always takes critical or analytical thinking, but if you dont have that to begin with, no university is going to change that.

[Judicious 7]

 

 

Why is labor cheaper in foreign countries?

Part of it is to do with the cost of living being lower, which means that individual who are paid considerably less in real terms can (potentially) have an equivilent standard of living to people elsewhere in the world paid much more.

 

But, in reality, it's mostly because governments and companies in the third world tend to treat their citizens/employees as expendable resources, have lax laws regarding minimum wages, living wages, working hours and worker safety, and are generally just pretty nasty.

Well, that explaination makes sense. So Sivis, why are our products we buy are cheap? I mean, shouldn't we as first world countries pay more from the toil of these workers?

[AboveAndBeyoncé]

I think we're probably both speaking off the cuff; check my last edit there.

 

I agree, certainly, that anyone who's wary of education for it's own sake is not to be trusted.

Hi Otter how's Canada?

[BrownBear]

I don't like this idea that you need to have a formal education to be knowledgeable.

I left school before I did my GCSEs and I was never really there anyway, on the whole I probably missed about 3-4 years of mandatory education. From the school's perspective, I was an idiot and not destined for anything. But with every fiber of my being I believe in self education and I honestly find it extremely offensive when people see that as irrelevant or unimportant. I don't claim to be an expert on anything, but I'm quite sharp and I'm rational, aside from the basics I learnt in school my entire knowledge base and world view has been developed by my research, my experiences and my family, I really feel I owe very little of what I am no to the British education system.

I've also never really felt the need to challenge myself academically at work. To me, work is just a means to an end, whereas my teaching myself is kind of a life calling.

Edited January 23, 2015 by BrownBear

[Fonz]

^Great post and 100% agreed.

[AlienTwo]

 

That's what it is... but there is a different word. I've been stuck on it for a week.

 

EDIT: Essentially "one-ups-manship" with weapons.

Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD)?

 

Or you maybe looking for the opposite of Détente, whatever that may be I'm not sure

 

That's what it is, but it's just one word.

 

 

That's what it is... but there is a different word. I've been stuck on it for a week.

 

EDIT: Essentially "one-ups-manship" with weapons.

 

Only word I can think of that would fit and hasn't been mentioned is escalation.

 

Oh Stu... you dun it.

 

That's the word, I seriously felt a dopamine hit reading that. And it was sooo close to "acceleration", what was stuck in my head box.

 

[GTA_stu]

Ha! YUSSSSSSS. You "self taught" losers can suck it! It was my university education which gave me the means to identify synonyms and words closely related to "arms race", not sitting at home watching Khan Academy videos in my y-fronts.

Edited January 23, 2015 by stu

[Fonz]

Ha! YUSSSSSSS. You "self taught" losers can suck it! It was my university education which gave me the means to identify synonyms and words closely related to "arms race", not sitting at home watching Khan Academy videos in my y-fronts.

If you had to go to college to be able to do that, then I'm truly concerned about the future of the human race!

Edited January 23, 2015 by Black_MiD

[ChrilLe]

Edit. The previous question doesn't matter anymore.

 

Now, can someone tell me where I can find a GIF image or green screen clip with a waving ISIS flag?

Edited January 23, 2015 by ChrilLe

[epoxi]

To an employer, a good result from good degree is evidence of the following: you have gained skills from that degree, you have an ability to pick up new skills and you have the ability to work hard.

 

I did Physics and the skills I gained (or furthered) include problem-solving, putting numerical models to problems, experimental and analytical skills from lab-work, the ability to code, presentation skills showing my ideas and results to others, and communication skills through writing up results and explaining concepts (this is of course in addition the 'book learning' of physical principles). I challenge you to find me a non-degree path that can provide you with those skills in less than a decade. The fact I completed the degree and got a decent result is proof I gained all of these skills, and I was able to work and achieve a balanced result: every degree has components you won't want to do, if you can do well in all of the modules it shows you can work even when you don't really want to and can stick at it for 3 or more years.

 

Now, I have no doubt there are plenty of people out there who don't hold a degree and are smarter, harder working and more able than me, but the fact is potential employers need proof of your ability. Every skilled job has an excessive number of applicants, and all employers want is someone who can do the job well and reliably. If you are a manager or CEO, and you need a problems solving, every moment you spend not having a good employee for the job is a moment these problems mount up: hemorrhaging cash, every day you spend looking through candidates is another several thousand dollars spent on HR.

 

If you have 100 non-graduates, one, maybe two will meet the minimum requirements for the position; and out of 100 graduates, 20 to 25 will match that criteria. You only have the resources to interview 10 of the 200 candidates, so it makes sense to only look at the graduates. So while it is entirely possible that the one non-graduate could well be better than all the graduates in your pile of applications, you are running a business, not a game of 'What if?' so it would be foolish not to shortlist by degree type and degree result.

 

For a young person looking at doing a degree the decision is simple: if you can, work hard and get a good degree which is likely to land you a good job, if you can't, it's best to start working and getting ahead in a career because you don't want to spend 3+ years of your life getting into debt only to find out you have been left in the dust by everyone else. You have the rest of your life to become 'enlightened' or a 'great thinker,' save that for when you are in a financial position to do so.

Edited January 23, 2015 by epoxi

[Coin]

Whether you actually need a degree or not is going to be dependent on the field you want to enter as a career choice. In some fields, it's absolutely required. Others, it might be nice to have but you can get by without it.

[Fonz]

@epoxi
That summed it up pretty well. I guess in some fields, and given the number of applicants and the competition that creates, degrees are important as certificates of your abilities. Employers don't have the time to personally test the applicants and need some academic confirmation—that's pretty understandable.
Kudos for not getting into the whole "flipping burgers hurr durr" talk, man. I'm going to college, but that sort of thing has always pissed me off.

[Ai®a©ob®a]

 

 

That's what it is... but there is a different word. I've been stuck on it for a week.

 

EDIT: Essentially "one-ups-manship" with weapons.

Only word I can think of that would fit and hasn't been mentioned is escalation.

Arms race? proliferation? Now I'm stuck in a loop too.

 

I think i know the word he is wanting but it's stuck on the tip of my tounge.

[Fonz]

It was "escalation" Oddly, I used it in a conversation with my History teacher this morning, but it didn't occur to me when Alien asked for it.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Black_MiD

[Reformed Squid]

 

Ha! YUSSSSSSS. You "self taught" losers can suck it! It was my university education which gave me the means to identify synonyms and words closely related to "arms race", not sitting at home watching Khan Academy videos in my y-fronts.

If you had to go to college to be able to do that, then I'm truly concerned about the future of the human race!

 

This might have sounded better if you were able to do it yourself...

Edited January 24, 2015 by Cloudee

[Fonz]

 

 

Ha! YUSSSSSSS. You "self taught" losers can suck it! It was my university education which gave me the means to identify synonyms and words closely related to "arms race", not sitting at home watching Khan Academy videos in my y-fronts.

If you had to go to college to be able to do that, then I'm truly concerned about the future of the human race!

 

This might have sounded better if you were able to do it yourself...

 

Like I just said to Troubadour, I used it earlier today in a conversation, I just couldn't remember it for Alien, although I did give other, pretty close suggestions.

Regardless, if you didn't know these words before going to college, then you're either very uncultured or just plain dumb.

[Reformed Squid]

 

 

 

Ha! YUSSSSSSS. You "self taught" losers can suck it! It was my university education which gave me the means to identify synonyms and words closely related to "arms race", not sitting at home watching Khan Academy videos in my y-fronts.

If you had to go to college to be able to do that, then I'm truly concerned about the future of the human race!

 

This might have sounded better if you were able to do it yourself...

 

Like I just said to Troubadour, I used it earlier today in a conversation, I just couldn't remember it for Alien, although I did give other, pretty close suggestions.

Regardless, if you didn't know these words before going to college, then you're either very uncultured or just plain dumb.

 

Got it.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Cloudee