The Fall of the gang and the endgame.

[chronic lumbago]

Doesn't seem like this was discussed yet. Beware, this topic might contain spoilers from older R* titles, namely RDR, LA Noire, GTAV and GTA4:TLAD.

 

Like mentioned in one of the interviews and obviously, anyone who played RDR knows that Dutch's gang is going to fall apart.

 

R* has confirmed many, many gang mechanics in the game - setting up camp and merging side missions together with main missions. The core gameplay of the game is going to resolve around the gang. A dynamic storyline where Arthur is just as important as the rest of the gang.

 

Nobody knows how the story will conclude, other than that the gang will eventually fall apart between RDR2 and RDR. Are we going to see the definitive fracture in RDR2 or is it going to end cliffhanger-ish, strongly indicating the future?

 

Let's look at R*'s track record. In TLAD, the gang falls apart and we loose access to the clubhouse entirely. It's why many, many players hated how it ended.

We had potential protagonist deaths in GTAV, but R* gave us a way to keep the trio alive.

In LA Noire, the protag dies but there is no endgame at all and you have to replay a chapter for free roam.

And in RDR, John is replaced by his son.

 

So what awaits us at the end of RDR2? What's going to happen to all those gang mechanics when we'll experience the gang falling apart? Is Arthur going to walk away with a small posse of his own?

 

I find it hard to believe that we'll get a happy ending with the gang somehow holding together. They need to make a connection to the first game before the credits roll. Is that a reason to be worried? What if they just take away or replace the gang gameplay elements?

 

Any thoughts?

[Dee-account-with-1kbans]

No happy ending. It will most likely be a somber and heartfelt ending like the first one.

[chronic lumbago]

No happy ending. It will most likely be a somber and heartfelt ending like the first one.

That's what I'm thinking too. It makes me a little worried that we'll have a negative turn on the gameplay when the story ends. I don't want another TLAD situation.

[DexMacLeod]

The way they came right out the gate promoting the gang and our interactions with them I'd be really surprised if that just goes away after the story's done. My guess is when the gang splits up they all choose sides depending on how you treated them throughout the story.

 

They also really focused on how they tried to make the gang members feel like real people and making the player connect/bond with them. Gang members dying could end up feeling just as somber and heartfelt as Arthur dying.

[MARKUS.]

Maybe the gang kill Arthur at the same place that John is left to die after being shot. And you control John from there

[Baked English Beans]

I'll throw in a few of my semi-educated guesses.

The game seems to take a lot of cues from the Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford, with Dutch taking the role of James. I think we might see the common people of the west idolize Dutch because of his Robin Hood persona, just like they did James. However, as a major member of the gang we'll see first hand the cruelty of Dutch's ways, and the dark mind behind his charismatic exterior. We'll have to question the morality behind feeding a starving family by killing and looting a banker with a family of his own. The gang members will probably use their Robin Hood image to rationalize their actions. However, slowly throughout the game the facade will crack and with members like Dutch, Javier and Bill slipping into insanity a lot of the gang will start to doubt their ways. Perhaps the common people will turn against them too, after an especially extreme act by the gang (Blackwater Massacre?). John will probably have private doubts, but will stay with the gang until 1906 when "the gang leaves him".

 

The most interesting question is what will happen to the members without plot armor?

Arthur seems based on his trailer dialogue and expressions to be having doubts about the gang. Micah seems to stay loyal and makes it sound like Arthur might have gone againt Dutch in some way. Sadie appears closer to Arthur than to the rest of the gang, calling them fools. I imagine she will go the direction Arthur goes, and vice versa. All of these characters are somewhat doomed by the plot, as the Bureau seemed highly intent on hunting down down Van der Linde gang members, and you'd imagine one as important as Arthur Morgan would place highly on the list. This leaves a few possibilities:

• Arthur dies. Simply, Arthur Morgan one way or another finds an early grave at the end of the story. Perhaps through betraying or going against the gang, perhaps the law does him in because he doesn't. This one can potentially overlap with the below scenarios as well. This would leave us in the shoes of another character such as Sadie, John or 4 year old Jack Marston.
• Arthur escapes. Remember that Dutch wasn't in the picture initially in the first game, just Bill, because he was causing trouble in New Austin. Dutch was believed dead or if Javier is to believed, in Colombia. Only when he returned to West Elizabeth did Ross and Fordham go after him, in other words, as soon as he stepped on their turf. It doesn't seem too unlikely that Arthur could outlive the rest of his gangmates if he succesfully went incognito (By growing a caveman beard) and/or leaving the country, giving up his life of crime (Bonus points for romantic Colombia getaway with Sadie). Alternatively Arthur either surrenders to the law and spends his life in a cell (Or meets his maker at the end of a rope) or gives up his gang to the law, which could also lead to his death at the hands of a pissed off Dutch.
• The gang splits in two. Arthur would lead the less extreme half. At the very least Sadie would probably join this half if she is alive at this point. The other half would be the plot armor dream team of Dutch, Javier, Bill and John, as well as poor Micah if they haven't split up at this point (Depends on how many years the game covers). I like the idea that some members would choose sides based on how you treated them up to that point. This scenario has merit in that the gang mechanic that seems to be integral to the game would be retained after the story. However, it would leave a gaping hole in the plot in that the government probably wouldn't be too pleased with a bunch of former Van der Linde gang members still running about in an organized gang, and no such gang is mentioned in the first game, meaning that they somehow met the end before 1911. Death still possible, maybe with Sadie as the new leader of the gang.
• Arthur stays with Dutch. Despite personal doubts Arthur decides to remain with the man who was his family for so many years. This would most likely lead to his demise, seeing as how he remains Dutch's right hand to the end, and yet is nowhere to be seen or heard in the first game. Gang mechanic retained, though possibly playing as another character.

The tone of the most recent trailer suggested a somber tone, so I think the ending will at best be bittersweet, and a lot of the newly introduced members of the gang will probably meet their maker before the end.

[Gray-Hand]

There is the possibility that the story of this game does not go as far as we are assuming it does. Rockstar might want to crank out another Red Dead game in the next few years. So the story might not progress as far as Marston getting shot, or the gang falling apart.

Apart from a couple of comments from Arthur and maybe Sadie expressing scepticism about the current state of the gang, we havent been shown anything concrete with regard to gang members killing each other or anything.

I mean, its a possibility.

[The Notorious MOB]

I think there will be an end mission and a epilogue but the post story free roam will be set before the epilogue if that makes sense. We know Dutch, John, Bill, Javier and Uncle survive and if the rumours are to be believed we play as John in the end. So in that sense we kind of already know what the end game entails. Basically it'll be either one of those imo. I like the idea of the gang splitting in half based on loyalties though.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Money Over Bullshit

[chronic lumbago]

Regarding your first theory, MOB: I don't think R* ever kicked us back to a pre-ending world after finishing the game. Many games do that but I think it's a rather cheap way to end the game.

 

Well, LA Noire could be an exception but it was chapter based.

[The Notorious MOB]

Regarding your first theory, MOB: I don't think R* ever kicked us back to a pre-ending world after finishing the game. Many games do that but I think it's a rather cheap way to end the game.

 

Well, LA Noire could be an exception but it was chapter based.

Given the reliability of the leaks we will probably play as John, but Arthur also sort of needs to disappear in some way since it would be equally as cheap to leave his fate ambiguous.

[Cutter De Blanc]

Regarding your first theory, MOB: I don't think R* ever kicked us back to a pre-ending world after finishing the game. Many games do that but I think it's a rather cheap way to end the game.

 

Well, LA Noire could be an exception but it was chapter based.

I blame Team Bondi for everything wrong with that game

[BUT THE BENZ]

arthur rides away with blonde chick, leaves behind dutch and gang, dutch and gang shoot their way out of the situation, prevail, the rest is RDR!

[Little Big Man]

Arthur changes his name to Bonnie.

[Jimmy Darmody]

 

• The gang splits in two. Arthur would lead the less extreme half. At the very least Sadie would probably join this half if she is alive at this point. The other half would be the plot armor dream team of Dutch, Javier, Bill and John, as well as poor Micah if they haven't split up at this point (Depends on how many years the game covers). I like the idea that some members would choose sides based on how you treated them up to that point. This scenario has merit in that the gang mechanic that seems to be integral to the game would be retained after the story. However, it would leave a gaping hole in the plot in that the government probably wouldn't be too pleased with a bunch of former Van der Linde gang members still running about in an organized gang, and no such gang is mentioned in the first game, meaning that they somehow met the end before 1911. Death still possible, maybe with Sadie as the new leader of the gang.

This is exactly what my guess is. Game is all about internal gang disputes and we know that Arthur is going through an "existential crisis" that divides him between "following his ideals or keep being loyal to the gang that took him and raised him". If by the end of the game Arthur choses to depart from Dutch's gang, he'll go out leading his own followers, while Dutch will move on with the remaining fellows of the gang (including Marston, Escuela and Williamson). But because Dutch is a sneaky bastard who prizes loyalty above all he's going to secretly snitch Arthur's location to the feds and the last mission is going to be about Arthur having to flee and fight off the Pinkerton agency. In the end, most of his group is going to die or taken prisioner, Arthur being the only one who manages to escape to an unkown part. Edgar Ross is going to be the one commanding the attack on Morgan's group and is going to be promoted to an higher rank. After Morgan's group is taken and Arthur escapes incognito, game ends, and we now play as John Marston as part of Dutch's gang, terrorizing villages and commiting crimes. Arthur's destiny will be purposedly left unkown.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jimmy Darmody

[AGNT009]

Arthur fakes his own death to get away from the gang. He may do it in faux sacrifice to save John. John is aware of the fakeout, and promises Arthur that he'll maintain his death and never speak Arthur Morgans name again. Arthur plans to leave alone or with Sadie and take up a new name far away. You then take over as John tooling around in the Aftergame like son Jake.

 

And because Rockstar has to realize they cant make as much from the old west as all the cars and aircraft they sold in GTA, they'll actually make a story DLC they charge us for branching the 2 games together, showing where John gets hired by the lawmen and start RDR1.

[The Algerian]

I think there's very little chance for anyone without plot armor (ie still alive in RDR1) to survive, otherwise they'd be on John's list.

[Jimmy Darmody]

I think there's very little chance for anyone without plot armor (ie still alive in RDR1) to survive, otherwise they'd be on John's list.

Makes a lot of sense, but not necessarily true because John's only hunting for outlaws in New Austin, Nuevo Paradiso and West Elizabeth. The new maps has way more regions than that, other former gang members could be operating in imho...

[The Algerian]

 

I think there's very little chance for anyone without plot armor (ie still alive in RDR1) to survive, otherwise they'd be on John's list.

Makes a lot of sense, but not necessarily true because John's only hunting for outlaws in New Austin, Nuevo Paradiso and West Elizabeth. The new maps has way more regions than that, other former gang members could be operating in imho...

 

 

Seems to me like you might be having this a bit backwards.

John isn't hunting down Williamson, Escuella and Dutch because they're in these locations, he's in these locations because he's hunting them down.

[Jimmy Darmody]

 

 

I think there's very little chance for anyone without plot armor (ie still alive in RDR1) to survive, otherwise they'd be on John's list.

Makes a lot of sense, but not necessarily true because John's only hunting for outlaws in New Austin, Nuevo Paradiso and West Elizabeth. The new maps has way more regions than that, other former gang members could be operating in imho...

 

 

Seems to me like you might be having this a bit backwards.

John isn't hunting down Williamson, Escuella and Dutch because they're in these locations, he's in these locations because he's hunting them down.

 

100% agreed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Point still stands, which is that there may be former gang members operating in other areas so they are not necessarily dead or in prison.

[Gray-Hand]

Uncle clearly survived, but John wasnt coerced into hunting him down, so there is narrative precedent for a gang member to survive without having the government on their back.

[Cutter De Blanc]

Uncle clearly survived, but John wasnt coerced into hunting him down, so there is narrative precedent for a gang member to survive without having the government on their back.

John didn't need to hunt him down, Uncle was taking care of Beecher's Hope, the government knew where he was, and killed him along with John after their business was concluded, like shooting fish in a barrel.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Cutter De Blanc

[MCMXCII]

I like how everyone's headcanon assumes that Sadie and Arthur will stick together and become romantically involved with each other after the gang dissolves. We don't know if that will happen. Alternatively, we don't know if they end up hating each other and becoming enemies by the end of the game. Though based on what I've seen of Sadie in the trailers, she's a smart woman who doesn't like dumb creeps like Williamson. She seems to have dignity for herself and she seems just as loyal to the gang as Arthur is. So who knows, she may stick with Arthur once the current Dutch's Gang is over and done with, or she may not. We'll have to see.

[The Jungz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't John's whole quest in RDR initially to just kill/capture Bill Williamson but once he fled to Mexico, the trails of Escuella got warmer so Javier became a primary target as well? And then of course, Dutch came back in the picture just in the nick of time, so they shifted their focus on him too.

 

Wouldn't that mean that, as long as ex-members of the Dutch gang kept popping up, Marston's escapade would not have ended?

 

He went after Williamson because Bill was running amok in New Austin and was quickly becoming a notorious, dangerous outlaw. His whereabouts were known. Nobody knew where Javier, Dutch, (Arthur, Sadie, etc) were exactly so they weren't specifically hunted, but once Edgar Ross and company realized they were all within reasonable distance, in the same few counties, they knew they had to grab this opportunity and dispose of them.

 

I think this means not everyone is obligated to die at the end of RDR2. I'm pretty sure a few of them will find a way to hide (hell, Dutch would have gotten away with it if he had stayed low).

 

 

PS: The only way I can see every gang member die by the end of RDR2 is if Rockstar wants to keep alive the narrative that John Marston was the last outlaw to be destroyed, and the last remaining member of Dutch's gang to be killed.