Quantcast
Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
    1. Welcome to GTAForums!   (91,322 visits to this link)

    2. News

    1. GTA Online

      1. Find Lobbies & Players
      2. Guides & Strategies
      3. Vehicles
      4. Content Creator
      5. Help & Support
    2. Crews

      1. Events
      2. Recruitment
    1. Grand Theft Auto Series

    2. GTA Next

    3. GTA V

      1. PC
      2. Guides & Strategies
      3. Help & Support
    4. GTA IV

      1. Episodes from Liberty City
      2. Multiplayer
      3. Guides & Strategies
      4. Help & Support
      5. GTA Mods
    5. GTA Chinatown Wars

    6. GTA Vice City Stories

    7. GTA Liberty City Stories

    8. GTA San Andreas

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    9. GTA Vice City

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    10. GTA III

      1. Guides & Strategies
      2. Help & Support
      3. GTA Mods
    11. Top Down Games

      1. GTA Advance
      2. GTA 2
      3. GTA
    12. Wiki

      1. Merchandising
    1. GTA Modding

      1. GTA V
      2. GTA IV
      3. GTA III, VC & SA
      4. Tutorials
    2. Mod Showroom

      1. Scripts & Plugins
      2. Maps
      3. Total Conversions
      4. Vehicles
      5. Textures
      6. Characters
      7. Tools
      8. Other
      9. Workshop
    3. Featured Mods

      1. DYOM
      2. OpenIV
      3. GTA: Underground
      4. GTA: Liberty City
      5. GTA: State of Liberty
    1. Red Dead Redemption 2

    2. Red Dead Redemption

    3. Rockstar Games

    1. Off-Topic

      1. General Chat
      2. Gaming
      3. Technology
      4. Programming
      5. Movies & TV
      6. Music
      7. Sports
      8. Vehicles
    2. Expression

      1. Graphics / Visual Arts
      2. GFX Requests & Tutorials
      3. Writers' Discussion
      4. Debates & Discussion
    1. Forum Support

    2. Site Suggestions

RetroMystic

What was CJ's goal post Green Sabre?

Recommended Posts

RetroMystic

After replaying the game and following the story more closely the plot seems more connected due to things that just kind of happen to CJ. Sure he wants to get back at Smoke and all that but he certainly takes his time doing it. Nothing about the way CJ conducts himself in between Green Sabre up until Home in the Hills suggests he's in any sort of rush to get back to LS, get revenge and save his brother. He mostly spends his time pissing around building a business empire across SA.

 

CJ didn't really know what he was doing until he gets the pink slip for the garage in SF then Kendl suggests business investments meanwhile it's Cesar and Woozie who are actively trying to bring down the drug trade and CJ is just doing what he's told because of street loyalty and all that wholesome stuff. Because of this CJ meets Mike and only then does CJ work toward getting Sweet out of prison and ends up being Torenos lapdog until the Las Venturas missions where this is seemingly forgotten and CJ is trying to build up Woozies casino and fight the mob THEN it's only because Madd Dogg wants to go home that the plot moves in the direction of taking back LS.

 

My point is nothing really drives Carl to get back to Los Santos. I mean you'd think C.R.A.S.H would have ordered CJ to go back to resurge the gang violence but no, Tenpenny assfoots it out of there, Carl kills Polaski and no-one remembers C.R.A.S.H until Tenpennies trial. It all just seems like one big Deus Ex Machina.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SMACKED!

what differences carl between his brother is that, while carl tries to go ahead in life leaving the gang life behind and do something productive with his life, sweet is the other way around, cj had null interest in going back to the roots as he tried to drag sweet into his lifestyle offering him a living in a mansion and some fashioned threads, you can tell similar about cesar in test drive when both agreed that their hoods will always be ganton and el corona and there was something special in san fierro. cj was always trying to keep himself to himself but he was also loyal to his family.

 

this all began when the green sabre concluded, when tenpenny almost had cj killed by pulaski when he told he couldn't deal with cj as he was an idiot or when kendl in king in exile told him to open his eyes and leave that "grove 4 life" bullsh*t apart, cj chores eventually led him to san fierro to set up his own bussinesses and get out of the ghetto for good.

Edited by SMACKED!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

Sure he wants to get back at Smoke and all that but he certainly takes his time doing it.

Because Tenpenny has warned him to stay from Smoke, or else...

It's not about getting back at Smoke, at all. Its about Sweet's safety and getting him out of the prison.

Nothing about the way CJ conducts himself in between Green Sabre up until Home in the Hills suggests he's in any sort of rush to get back to LS, get revenge and save his brother.

Because Sweet is put on trial. Man, do you even understand the term jail, prison, and how the whole thing works?

First educate yourselves a bit about the law.

Those charged with serious crimes may be held in a remand prison until trial or sentencing.

He mostly spends his time pissing around building a business empire across SA.

Because that's what makes sense. You need to listen all the conversations between Kendle and CJ, and then you'll understand the reason behind spending time to regain lost power, and respect. That's the only way CJ can avenge his mother's death and what happened to Sweet. You need to understand that the whole pacing of the game is more focused on how CJ has grown and matured throughout the game with experience and the challenges.

 

CJ didn't really know what he was doing until he gets the pink slip for the garage in SF

No. You didn't understand what was going on at that point in the story.

 

it's Cesar and Woozie who are actively trying to bring down the drug trade and CJ is just doing what he's told because of street loyalty and all that wholesome stuff.

Which game are you talking about? Did you really play SA or just watched YouTube videos of the cutscenes?

Either you are deliberately acting silly or there's something wrong with you that you don't understand the simple cutscenes.

It was CJ trying to bring down the drug trade. Woozie knows better about all the dealings and sh*t, and so he's obviously going to lead his dear friend CJ in the right direction even for his own business interests. Cesar is helping him because ..??? It's so difficult to understand, eh hh??

 

Because of this CJ meets Mike and only then does CJ work toward getting Sweet out of prison and ends up being Torenos lapdog until the Las Venturas missions

LOL!! You really need to pay MORE attention to the cutscenes.

My answer to this is already covered in the initial quotes. I don't think there's anything more add here. It's all about common sense, and if you can't understand a simple storyline then I feel sorry for you.

CJ is trying to build up Woozies casino and fight the mob

Oh god.. He's not trying to build up for Woozie. They are working for their own business interests because now CJ is also a partner to the whole casino venture. He's fighting the mob because that'll bring them huge profits in the end. Because, you know CJ is no longer a street thug. He's already moved beyond thug life at that point in the story.

 

 

My point is nothing really drives Carl to get back to Los Santos.

Read me Oh, and there's another link in that post. Read that as well.

 

I mean you'd think C.R.A.S.H would have ordered CJ to go back to resurge the gang violence

Why the hell C.R.A.S.H would do that? You are really testing my patience. Do you even understand the background of C.R.A.S.H??? Edited by Am Shaegar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

 

 

I can't quote your entire post so I have to do this.

 

 

 

Your entire post was nitpicking when I simply asked what was CJ's GOAL. Whether you misunderstood my entire post or I didn't articulate my point very well, the whole subject of the post is that a series of other people spearheading stuff and CJ taking the reign instead of CJ having a clear and defined goal. A point I know I didn't articulate well in my tired writing was the fact that it wasn't CJs aim to get back to LS until Madd Dogg happens to want to go back (which was a point even you couldn't answer which I find quite laughable).

 

By the way, Sweet was given a life sentence and while CJ was doing odd jobs for Toreno, in return Mike was protecting Sweet in prison from the White Supremacist and the child killer as noted by Toreno in the opening cutscene for this mission.

 

 

.

 

I know in the early stages Sweet was being sentenced, but that wasn't my point. Once CJ had the knowledge Sweet was well and truly in the joint, he was only doing jobs for Toreno because Sweet was being kept safe in prison, CJ wasn't working toward getting him out of prison which is what I said.

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

The problem I have with such topics is that I don't get the impression that the player has replayed the game enough to actually claim "following the story "more closely" enough. It's been over ten years, and some of your questions and/or doubts, literally fall into what I'd like to call, "frequently asked SILLY questions", category, because it's annoying to answer about things that the game so clearly makes it obvious during the playthrough, and if someone is really following the story "close enough" then it's not possible to not get the point across, which is why I often suggest to replay the story as much as possible, before posting questions, or at least, that's worth discussing than going over the most basic type of questions that are very easy to understand.

Like...

1. What was CJ's goal? This cannot be answered in a single sentence. But, it's very easy to understand.

 

It is the story of a gangster who returns to LS, and due to an unfortunate event, is forced to leave the hood and move through San Fierro and Las Venturas, meeting many characters, taking up missions that are central to his many GOALS ( including Sweet's safety, and ending the drug operations ) which can be divided into two main parts:

(1) To regain the lost power and respect of the Grove Street Families from rival gangs, and Big Smoke,

and,

(2) Typical GTA goals, like the protagonist rises from rags to riches, through empire building, etc.

There are a couple of miscellaneous goals, like establishing Madd Dogg's careers, helping out The Truth, Zero, Cesar's car business, and other characters who are close associates of CJ, and not some random Mafia douchebag who we meet for a few seconds, and then start running errands for him just because I'm a gun for a hire excuse, and it pays. So, I'll murder a woman because some random guy on the road is paying a few dollars, or kidnap a girl for diamond, even though you have nothing to gain in the whole stupid diamonds fiasco. If people still have no issues in playing absolute botched up, train wreck of a story in other GTA games, then I don't understand what's so hard for you to rationalize many things in SA that are very closely related to CJ's main goals, including those objectives that are mostly "optional" and the game doesn't force you to complete in order to finish the story, but they are little favors that CJ does because of the support he received, not from total strangers, but characters that become a part of his journey, and prove useful to accomplish his primary goals, which is why they all unite in the end celebrating CJ's victory like a big nice family.

 

By the way, Sweet was given a life sentence

Oh really, please let me know the exact source in the game that talks about "life sentence"?

 

CJ was only doing jobs for Toreno because Sweet was being kept safe in prison, CJ wasn't working toward getting him out of prison.

What's the difference between the two? He can't get him out of prison on his own since Sweet is put on a trial. Toreno actually proves to be immensely useful here. He not only keeps a check on Tenpenny but comes as a ray of hope for Sweet's safety. Without him, do you think Tenpenny would have let Sweet stay alive in prison, once he had no use of CJ?

Like, c'mon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

(1) To regain the lost power and respect of the Grove Street Families from rival gangs, and Big Smoke,

 

Oh? I thought that CJ was trying to get out of gang life and now he's trying to bring the families back into power and back from the rival gangs. The contradiction here is amazing actually.

 

Oh really, please let me know the exact source in the game that talks about "life sentence"?

 

This video at 19:40. if you're so familiar with the game you should remember all the phone calls, especially from Sweet lol.

 

 

 

And to double my point, Carl specifically said "I'm going to get you out" yet CJ would rather focus on building a business empire?

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

Oh? I thought that CJ was trying to get out of gang life and now he's trying to bring the families back into power and back from the rival gangs. The contradiction here is amazing actually.

Then I assume you really didn't read another link within the original post, I asked you to go through. It should explain the contradiction. I'm talking about the LV strand if missions, which also explains in short about CJ's character, and the changes meant to happen during the game, as we progress through the map.

 

 

This video at 19:40. if you're so familiar with the game you should remember all the phone calls, especially from Sweet lol.

HO HO HO.

I never claimed myself absolute perfectionist knowing everything about the game 100%. It's not a cutscene, but a phone call, and it's likely that sometimes such little details might skip out of my mind, which is why I asked you. So, thanks anyways.

 

BUT.

According to that phone call

Sweet seems to only express the concern that he is gonna remain insude for life, because he doesn't think CJ can free him, since obviously, Sweet doesn't realize all the efforts CJ has been putting all this while. It's a natural concern anyone who remains in prison without any powerful connections or outside support has. It doesn't imply that Sweet was serving a life sentence but awaiting a trial, as Tenpenny clearly says in the cutscene.

 

Regarding your last point, I've explained it enough. The game does a good job as well. Sorry, if you still don't understand.

Good bye!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

 

 

 

Oh? I thought that CJ was trying to get out of gang life and now he's trying to bring the families back into power and back from the rival gangs. The contradiction here is amazing actually.

Then I assume you really didn't read another link within the original post, I asked you to go through. It should explain the contradiction. I'm talking about the LV strand if missions, which also explains in short about CJ's character, and the changes meant to happen during the game, as we progress through the map.

This video at 19:40. if you're so familiar with the game you should remember all the phone calls, especially from Sweet lol.

HO HO HO.
I never claimed myself absolute perfectionist knowing everything about the game 100%. It's not a cutscene, but a phone call, and it's likely that sometimes such little details might skip out of my mind, which is why I asked you. So, thanks anyways.

BUT.
According to that phone call
Sweet seems to only express the concern that he is gonna remain insude for life, because he doesn't think CJ can free him, since obviously, Sweet doesn't realize all the efforts CJ has been putting all this while. It's a natural concern anyone who remains in prison without any powerful connections or outside support has. It doesn't imply that Sweet was serving a life sentence but awaiting a trial, as Tenpenny clearly says in the cutscene.

Regarding your last point, I've explained it enough. The game does a good job as well. Sorry, if you still don't understand.
Good bye!!!!

 

 

 

 

Right.

And I just want to say that I wasn't looking at the plot from a broad perspective when posing the question, I quite literally mean after the green sabre what was CJ's goals? Because it wasn't until they arrive at San Fierro that CJ and the gang start making moves against Smoke's drug empire and subsequently, the entire SA drug trade. It all seems like a coincidence that Carl just so happens to get Claudes pink slip for the garage in SF, then The Truth just so happens to flee with CJ to SF and the plot moves foward from there but beat by beat CJ's goal seems to move between getting out of the gang life but also help his brother which to me seems like an inconsistency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

Because it wasn't until they arrive at San Fierro that CJ and the gang start making moves against Smoke's drug empire and subsequently, the entire SA drug trade.

Because CJ, and the players, knew about Big Smokes betrayal only after Green Sabre mission. Crystal clear thing. How is this even a question to you is beyond me??!!

They were against drugs being sold by GSF. It wasn't about entire state. It was about stopping Smoke from pushing drugs into LS, later. CJ didn't consider the bigger implications on the whole state, at least, there's no visible proof in cutscenes, phone calls, etc. But, according to me, it's common sense, if you try to stop and attempt to ruin the businesses of any rival enemy, then the positive results of your actions are likely to have a bigger impact, not only limited to LS, but across the State, wherever the drug operations are taking place.

 

It all seems like a coincidence that Carl just so happens to get Claudes pink slip for the garage in SF

No coincidence. He gets the garage as a reward for winning the race. It could have been something else. In the end, it's just a prize CJ gets for winning the race.

then The Truth just so happens to flee with CJ to SF

Nope. They had to flee because of the police raid on the farm.

 

...and the plot moves foward from there but beat by beat CJ's goal seems to move between getting out of the gang life but also help his brother which to me seems like an inconsistency.

The plot in any story always moves forward, unless you throw in a flashback. It's not "beat by beat" rather "bit by bit", and why not? It has great pacing, allowing you to spend more time with the environment, and the game world, what's the hurry to finish the story so fast, so quickly, eh?

Inconsistency, in what sense? People keep throwing this term for everything they fail to understand. The game does an absolutely great job in making you understand everything in game. Of course, it's not so simple and straightforward either. Some parts really need a couple of relook to understand the events in more details than what appears on the surface. You also need to have good knowledge of the 90's period, because many events are inspired from real life events of that time, including the jetpack story, Toreno's character as a government agent, the background of CRASH, Tenpenny as a corrupt cop manipulating gangs, and so much more.

It's an awesome story that throws light on so many interesting facts, and events, making it much more engaging than any GTA story that are either Scarface/Mafia ripoffs with little originality or interesting subjects that explore the characters personality and his actions beyond just making him look like a badass, murdering psycho, ready to do anything for money.

CJ is different than the rest of the protagonists, which is why people hate him so much.

Edited by Am Shaegar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

Inconsistency, in what sense? People keep throwing this term for everything they fail to understand. The game does an absolutely great job in making you understand everything in game. Of course, it's not so simple and straightforward either. Some parts really need a couple of relook to understand the events in more details than what appears on the surface. You also need to have good knowledge of the 90's period, because many events are inspired from real life events of that time, including the jetpack story, Toreno's character as a government agent, the background of CRASH, Tenpenny as a corrupt cop manipulating gangs, and so much more. It's an awesome story that throws light on so many interesting facts, and events, making it much more engaging than any GTA story that are either Scarface/Mafia ripoffs with little originality or interesting subjects that explore the characters personality and his actions beyond just making him look like a badass, murdering psycho, ready to do anything for money. CJ is different than the rest of the protagonists, which is why people hate him so much.

 

Maybe people keep throwing around the term "inconsistent" because it sums up a majority of the plot. The game starts on the basis of putting you in the shoes of a classic 90's street gangsta in the height of gang violence in LA and the game was formed on that premise yet halfway through the plot it turns into a rags to riches story as opposed to a classic revenge story. What? You expect me to believe Kendl let alone CJ has ANY experience in business when as mentioned by Sweet, someone like Kendl can't even afford new shoes for herself? A major character is written is such a contrived way. How ANY of the main cast during the plot (apart from Woozie who doesn't even assist CJ in the first beginning stages of the business empire in SF) know about business investment is beyond me and it's clear you can't comprehend the point I'm trying to make. It's a coincidence that things just so happen to push CJ in the direction the plot needs him to go in order to progress.

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

Maybe people keep throwing around the term "inconsistent" because it sums up a majority of the plot.

I don't think so. It seems like what you are finding as inconsistent is actually something you are criticizing for not being able to understand what the developers intend to show. It's clear from the kind of ODD questions you have raised, like why CRASH didn't order CJ to go back to resurge the gang violence, and what not. You expect something to happen the way you think it should, but the developers have something else to offer, so that makes it automatically "inconsistent"???

Nope. The developers do a great job in presenting good story justifications to majority of the events in game. If you don't find that good enough then its your own personal criticism of the story, and not necessarily something that I, or others, also find it "inconsistent".

 

.. and the game was formed on that premise

No. You can say it starts off on that premise, but that's not the whole story itself. Its abundantly clear across their initial previews, and interviews.

..yet halfway through the plot it turns into a rags to riches story as opposed to a classic revenge story. What?

So, what?

Is there one specific formula or path for someone seeking revenge that SA needs to firmly follow?

This is not a matter of inconsistency. They are incorporating several interesting situations, characters, and twists into the story for creating a more engaging, exciting, unpredictable dramatic events with a rich variety of missions, environment, and what not. It's storytelling at it's finest over the generic, boring, and bland GTA stories of the series.

 

 

You expect me to believe Kendl let alone CJ has ANY experience in business when as mentioned by Sweet, someone like Kendl can't even afford new shoes for herself?

That's for you to figure out. I am only sharing my views. Why can't Kendl handle a business? It doesn't matter what Sweet says. I'm sure even you have met people in life that doubt or create aspersions on you, and your ability to handle something. Just because someone talks negatively about others doesn't mean it becomes a character certificate of someone.

If you pay attention to their conversations then you will realise how the game tries to imply that a person like CJ lacks experience, and that's the interesting part of his journey. You are just having some kind of a preconceived notion about the black characters and their background, instead of focusing on how the game attempts to make CJ grow in experience and maturity, as you progress into the story.

 

 

 

Kendl: Hey Carl, look - I think I found a way for us to get paid.

 

CJ: I ain't going to no college to study no accounting!

 

Kendl: No, idiot, property!

 

CJ: Decorating ain't exactly my thing, either.

 

Kendl: No, property development! Look, you buy a dump like this, fix it up and sell it. Or better yet, you turn the property into a business. The snowball gets bigger...

 

CJ: I dunno, sis, this all sounds big time to me.

 

Kendl: Look, Carl, this place is gonna get on its feet, and when it does, we are gonna have money. If you want to make something of yourself, you gotta let your money work for you.

 

CJ: Look, I wouldn't even know where to start.

 

Kendl: Look, you two concentrate on the garage, and let me work the property thing, OK

 

 

There goes the explanation. What more do you want?

...is written in a contrived way

In your own opinion? Yes, I know.

How ANY of the main cast during the plot (apart from Woozie who doesn't even assist CJ in the first beginning stages of the business empire in SF) know about business investment is beyond me and it's clear you can't comprehend the point I'm trying to make.

Seriously. It's not like I don't. But you are thinking way too much, and it seems like you are doing it just for the sake of it.

Why the f*ck should I care whether anyone holds a degree in business management? I mean, that's the only proof missing from the game, otherwise these characters are explained well enough to not doubt about their abilities or experience in game.

It's a coincidence that things just so happen to push CJ in the direction the plot needs him to go in order to progress.

Because that's how the developers want you to witness the plot unfolding with interesting turn of events, situations, and specific type of information for creating an awesome story experience.

Go and ask Stephen King whether it's a coincidence that things just so happen in his book, or he decides the direction of the plot that he thinks right in order to progress into the story, and then let me know his answer!!

Edited by Am Shaegar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

 

 

 

Maybe people keep throwing around the term "inconsistent" because it sums up a majority of the plot.

I don't think so. It seems like what you are finding as inconsistent is actually something you are criticizing for not being able to understand what the developers intend to show. It's clear from the kind of ODD questions you have raised, like why CRASH didn't order CJ to go back to resurge the gang violence, and what not. You expect something to happen the way you think it should, but the developers have something else to offer, so that makes it automatically "inconsistent"???
Nope. The developers do a great job in presenting good story justifications to majority of the events in game. If you don't find that good enough then its your own personal criticism of the story, and not necessarily something that I, or others, also find it "inconsistent".

.. and the game was formed on that premise

No. You can say it starts off on that premise, but that's not the whole story itself. Its abundantly clear across their initial previews, and interviews.

..yet halfway through the plot it turns into a rags to riches story as opposed to a classic revenge story. What?


So, what?
Is there one specific formula or path for someone seeking revenge that SA needs to firmly follow?
This is not a matter of inconsistency. They are incorporating several interesting situations, characters, and twists into the story for creating a more engaging, exciting, unpredictable dramatic events with a rich variety of missions, environment, and what not. It's storytelling at it's finest over the generic, boring, and bland GTA stories of the series.


You expect me to believe Kendl let alone CJ has ANY experience in business when as mentioned by Sweet, someone like Kendl can't even afford new shoes for herself?

That's for you to figure out. I am only sharing my views. Why can't Kendl handle a business? It doesn't matter what Sweet says. I'm sure even you have met people in life that doubt or create aspersions on you, and your ability to handle something. Just because someone talks negatively about others doesn't mean it becomes a character certificate of someone.
If you pay attention to their conversations then you will realise how the game tries to imply that a person like CJ lacks experience, and that's the interesting part of his journey. You are just having some kind of a preconceived notion about the black characters and their background, instead of focusing on how the game attempts to make CJ grow in experience and maturity, as you progress into the story.


Kendl: Hey Carl, look - I think I found a way for us to get paid.

CJ: I ain't going to no college to study no accounting!

Kendl: No, idiot, property!

CJ: Decorating ain't exactly my thing, either.

Kendl: No, property development! Look, you buy a dump like this, fix it up and sell it. Or better yet, you turn the property into a business. The snowball gets bigger...

CJ: I dunno, sis, this all sounds big time to me.

Kendl: Look, Carl, this place is gonna get on its feet, and when it does, we are gonna have money. If you want to make something of yourself, you gotta let your money work for you.

CJ: Look, I wouldn't even know where to start.

Kendl: Look, you two concentrate on the garage, and let me work the property thing, OK



There goes the explanation. What more do you want?

...is written in a contrived way

In your own opinion? Yes, I know.

How ANY of the main cast during the plot (apart from Woozie who doesn't even assist CJ in the first beginning stages of the business empire in SF) know about business investment is beyond me and it's clear you can't comprehend the point I'm trying to make.

Seriously. It's not like I don't. But you are thinking way too much, and it seems like you are doing it just for the sake of it.
Why the f*ck should I care whether anyone holds a degree in business management? I mean, that's the only proof missing from the game, otherwise these characters are explained well enough to not doubt about their abilities or experience in game.

It's a coincidence that things just so happen to push CJ in the direction the plot needs him to go in order to progress.

Because that's how the developers want you to witness the plot unfolding with interesting turn of events, situations, and specific type of information for creating an awesome story experience.
Go and ask Stephen King whether it's a coincidence that things just so happen in his book, or he decides the direction of the plot that he thinks right in order to progress into the story, and then let me know his answer!!

 

 



All your arguments are based on either:

1. That's your opinion (which it's not, take note of any sort of well written piece and you'll find that GTA:SA's plot is contrived)

2. That's because the developers intended...

 

Let's get this out of the way, I highly doubt you were involved in the development of San Andreas so please don't tell me what the writers intended unless you can prove to me you were credited for being a writer on this game.

 

Imagine if GTA IV started out the way it did but all of a sudden Nike decided to become a, lets say investment banker and the rest of the game was Niko investing in the stock market up until someone says "Hey Niko we know where Dimitri is!" then Niko goes and kills him.

 

That is GTA San Andreas (I mean this with no disrespect to GTA:SA by the way, I've been playing the game since '06 so I know the game like the back of my hand).

 

You are just having some kind of a preconceived notion about the black characters and their background

 

Don't for a minute sit there and tell me that it's my preconceived notions of black characters. This has never been about race and the fact you need a straw man that absurd to counter my arguments is honestly pathetic. My argument is based solely of in-game information. Sweet protected Kendl for the 5 years of CJ's absence and probably before that, Sweet is a source of information I'd trust regarding Kendl his sister and I find it hard to believe that she had any level of higher education if she was relying on Sweet. If she wasn't relying on Sweet, why stay in Grove Street at all? It's pretty clear she wants to leave.

 

It is definitely a matter of inconsistency, you don't incorporate plot elements only to completely abandon them or only bring them back toward the end.

 

And yes, things do happen for the sake of the plot. Take Cesar for example. You can assume that he grew up in East LS and I know he's based in the street racing scene, but that's the street racing scene in LS. Why would he have any connection to the countryside illegal racing scene? Or how about the FIB closing in on the Truth? You'd think Tenpenny using the Truth as a source of weed would do his best to cover up TT's weed farm for the sake of not getting ratted out by the Truth if he was caught and interrogated.

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

All your arguments are based on either:

 

1. That's your opinion (which it's not...

Its not, then, what it is? A fact. If that's the case, then don't be surprised if I start calling my opinions as facts.

.. take note of any sort of well written piece and you'll find that GTA:SA's plot is contrived)

Why don't you post it here, and share with the community those well written pieces, instead of simply mentioning about their existence with no evidence.

Its still their opinions. I can share a lot of well written pieces about other GTA stories, too.

In fact, I don't find that many articles that criticise SA's story so strongly, compared to IV or V's story, and even VC.

2. That's because the developers intended...

Obviously. That's the truth.

 

I highly doubt you were involved in the development of San Andreas so please don't tell me what the writers intended unless you can prove to me you were credited for being a writer on this game.

Like I said, that's for you to figure out. How you interpret the story may not be the same the way I understand about it. I didn't say that the developers intend to show something in a specific way, but I do understand the reasons behind majority of the story events, and why the developers chose to present something in a manner that actually made sense to me.

 

Imagine if GTA IV started out the way it did but all of a sudden Nike decided to become a, lets say investment banker and the rest of the game was Niko investing in the stock market up until someone says "Hey Niko we know where Dimitri is!" then Niko goes and kills him.

Not interested in imagining anything about Niko's boring, botched up, mess of a story. Better give an example of a story that actually is well written and makes SENSE.

 

This has never been about race and the fact you need a straw man that absurd to counter my arguments is honestly pathetic

Well, you said how Kendl, let alone CJ can do business without giving a proper explanation other than Sweet's comments, as if you seem to imply that black characters can't do business.

Cool, then, if that's not what you meant!!!

My argument is based solely of in-game information. Sweet protected Kendl for the 5 years of CJ's absence and probably before that, Sweet is a source of information I'd trust regarding Kendl his sister and I find it hard to believe that she had any level of higher education if she was relying on Sweet. If she wasn't relying on Sweet, why stay in Grove Street at all? It's pretty clear she wants to leave.

That still doesn't explain why you thought that Kendl can't handle business, specifically, property business?

Kendl definitely understands how the Grove Street gangs function and run their illegal business. So, she has the knowledge, if not necessarily, having a degree or something. All Kendl is saying is to invest the money in property, by starting out with the garage in SF. What's so hard to understand here? It's not some rocket science that you need a degree to identify good properties to invest. I know many people in realife who are working as agents or brokers cfor reputed real estate consultants without any degree. They have very good knowledge and sense about the market rates, potential for the property to attract development projects, street smartness that is required to understand the consumers demand. All these things are not taught in schools or colleges, but you have to practically work on ground. She is the one who forces CJ to come out of the hood mentality and think big. It clearly implies that she has her own life and goals different from what Sweet might have expected from her, and even CJ.

 

It is definitely a matter of inconsistency, you don't incorporate plot elements only to completely abandon them or only bring them back toward the end.

No, it is not a matter of inconsistency. Abandon, in what sense? There's a proper thought applied to all those events. You don't understand, or don't think that it's proper, or something else, then it's your own personal criticism. I don't agree with your assessment. Simple as that.

 

And yes, things do happen for the sake of the plot.

Take Cesar for example.

No. Talk about Stephen King for example. What happened? Did you ask him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

Not interested in imagining anything about Niko's boring, botched up, mess of a story. Better give an example of a story that actually is well written and makes SENSE.

 

That's statement right there says a lot.

 

Listen bud judging from your post history it's clear you think GTA:SA is a masterpiece and you can hold that opinion, I don't care but fact is fact and GTA:SA is a contrived and sometimes poorly structured story and nothing I say will make those rose tinted glasses come off so for the sake of not creating a pointless 10 page long thread regarding a subject that had nothing to do with my original post to begin with I'll just end it here since ALL of your arguments boil down to "That's just your opinion" or "you just don't understand" and when presented with evidence you dismiss it with "it doesn't matter what ___ said".

 

You weren't on the writing team so you cannot tell me what the developers intended. GTA:SA is a good rising from the bottom story but there are some inconsistent elements in the plot that make it lose some structure and I simply asked what CJs goal was post green sabre while providing some commentary about how some plot elements don't make it as clear as it could be but instead you nitpick and try and argue with points like

 

Kendl definitely understands how the Grove Street gangs function and run their illegal business. So, she has the knowledge, if not necessarily, having a degree or something. All Kendl is saying is to invest the money in property, by starting out with the garage in SF. What's so hard to understand here? It's not some rocket science that you need a degree to identify good properties to invest.

 

which isn't even so much as implied, like why would Kendl care what GSFs business dealings were if she wanted out of the hood? But again that is reading WAY in too deep.

 

I hope you enjoyed coming off as an extremely arrogant SA fanboy trying to defend something so much you seriously dissected every single statement I made when I wasn't even trying to criticise the game in the first place.

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

You are trying to drag the argument in a different direction by making silly points, and constantly nitpicking whatever tickles your fancy, and when I remind you about the things that are just your own personal observations and interpretations you get upset. Moreover, you have no problems in presenting your opinions as facts, and then you lecture about how I should discuss and talk, eh?

You weren't on the writing team so you cannot tell me what the developers intended.

I already made it clear that I am not making it look like the developers intended to tell the story in a certain way. I don't know about those rose tinted glasses, but you certainly need to improve your reading comprehension, and importantly, stop lying!

You don't counter any of my points to stay on topic, but keep on throwing questions upon questions, without keeping the focus on one thing, and then you blame me for no fault other than replying to your own points.

It doesn't make me an SA fanboy, just because I don't agree with you on the everything. It's called having a different opinion, which you seem to not understand, otherwise you would have surely noticed in the posting history, all those posts, where I have also criticised SA.

Anyways, I have already made my position clear. It's up to you to decide where you want to take it from here. Sticking with the topic, or coming up with another question that is inconsistent with the actual topic. :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RetroMystic

It doesn't make me an SA fanboy, just because I don't agree with you on the everything. It's called having a different opinion

 

VN3Lxnl.png

 

Nice try Osho

Edited by RetroMystic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Journey_95

I'm glad I put Osho on my ignore list (again).

Anyway he doesn't really have a clear goal post LS, its more about showing the player the different cities and enviroments. SA's story is a (fun) trainwreck after the first arc. At least we meet some memorable side characters.

Edited by Journey_95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Evil empire

To make it short he prevents the ballas from expanding their drug empire, exploits other means to become rich, works to free Sweet and strengthens his alliance with the triads to better strike back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Official General

After replaying the game and following the story more closely the plot seems more connected due to things that just kind of happen to CJ. Sure he wants to get back at Smoke and all that but he certainly takes his time doing it. Nothing about the way CJ conducts himself in between Green Sabre up until Home in the Hills suggests he's in any sort of rush to get back to LS, get revenge and save his brother. He mostly spends his time pissing around building a business empire across SA.

 

CJ didn't really know what he was doing until he gets the pink slip for the garage in SF then Kendl suggests business investments meanwhile it's Cesar and Woozie who are actively trying to bring down the drug trade and CJ is just doing what he's told because of street loyalty and all that wholesome stuff. Because of this CJ meets Mike and only then does CJ work toward getting Sweet out of prison and ends up being Torenos lapdog until the Las Venturas missions where this is seemingly forgotten and CJ is trying to build up Woozies casino and fight the mob THEN it's only because Madd Dogg wants to go home that the plot moves in the direction of taking back LS.

 

My point is nothing really drives Carl to get back to Los Santos. I mean you'd think C.R.A.S.H would have ordered CJ to go back to resurge the gang violence but no, Tenpenny assfoots it out of there, Carl kills Polaski and no-one remembers C.R.A.S.H until Tenpennies trial. It all just seems like one big Deus Ex Machina.

I do admit that while I thoroughly enjoyed playing through SA's story, it was certainly not among the best in the series with regards to refinement and structure, however it was still highly entertaining enough to keep me glued and interested.

 

That was kinda the idea of the story in the first place. The events of CJ's life story and experiences in SA were not supposed to be planned or mapped out in a very orderly and timely manner. CJ's story is only concluded once the player goes through a maze-like, intertwined set of paths that represent a rich mixture of planned, unplanned, random, and spontaneous events. CJ himself is not exactly sure of what he wants to do with his life, or which in direction he wants to go at the beginning of the game - this is made quite clear from the start of the story. It takes a long while for CJ to eventually decide on what he is going to do about his situation, his future, his status, and which path he will take to achieve his objectives.

 

* CJ takes his time gaining revenge against Big Smoke, simply because in the first section of the story Big Smoke by that point is a very rich and powerful drug lord with a lot of money, resources, and manpower to easily keep a lone wolf like CJ at bay. On top of that, BS commands total loyalty from the Families gang, Ryder is his right-hand man, and he has extra protection from corrupt cops like Tenpenny and Pulaski during this time - with such odds against him, there is no way CJ would even be able to remotely get close to BS and kill him. It would take an awful lot of thinking, planning, hard work, gathering of manpower, and resources to fight back against BS and gain revenge, which in turn takes a very long time. Importantly also, CJ becomes greatly disatracted when his brother Sweet goes to jail, and has to figure out a way to get him out. None of this should be really hard to understand if you followed the plot close enough.

 

* CJ spends most of his time " pissing " around in other parts of SA outside of Los Santos, because he is practically exiled from the city. The Families have lost control of their territories and they have turned against him as a result of him being betrayed by Big Smoke (using gang cheats, try to recruit gang members in exile and they refuse; this further highlights this), the Ballas and Vagos now dominate the city's gang scene and want to kill him on sight, and Tenpenny and Pulaski force him to go into the countryside to do their dirty work under the threat of bringing harm to his brother Sweet while he is in prison. Why the hell would he be in a rush to get back to LS ?? Surely you could not have missed all that.

 

 

* CJ building a business empire across SA was simply a by-product of his adventures and escapades while being exiled to the countryside and cities outside of LS, and they only made up a part of his wider, main aims and objectives, which was to free Sweet from prison, get revenge on BS and the CRASH officers, and eventually rebuild the Grove St gang. It was never CJ's intention to build a business empire in the first place, let alone have pre-planned ideas of doing it. It just so happened by chance as a result of events in his life at this stage he saw fit to capitalise on the opportunities presented to him to create a business empire. The idea was to show how far CJ had grown, having developed and matured from being a lowly gang-affiliated street thug to a hardened, but savvy, business-minded crime boss involved in more sophisticated levels of organised crime.

 

And you suggesting that it was unrealistic for CJ and Kendl to have been creating their own business empire because of their lowly ghetto backgrounds and lack of business experience is a trifle stupid and narrow-minded. Some of the richest and wealthiest people today came from the poorest backgrounds, grew up in poverty, and initially knew next to nothing about business or trading - but through hard work, smarts, opportunism, and learning experiences they got to where they are now. No different for CJ or Kendl.

 

* The Toreno part was a bit silly and too over the top for me, that I concede. But it did offer some variety and choice for wacky, high octane action moments, which certainly had appeal to a huge section of the GTA fan base.

 

* You're just unnecessarily nitpicking about the parts with Woozie and Madd Dogg in Las Venturas. Cant say more to that part.

 

* CJ had to return to LS for the most clearest and obvious reasons that involved all kinds of important, unfinished business. If you had to make a thread asking why he did, then I can only surmise that you did not follow the games story closely enough to fully understand the sequence of events and reasoning behind them.

Edited by Official General

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Journey_95

 

 

<< reduced post quote>>

 

No its more likely that CJ stopped caring about taking revenge on Smoke. When Sweet was released he just wanted to get back to the mansion and show him everything he achieved. He didn't care about revenge or the hood anymore.

 

And CJ never really matured. As soon as Sweet is released and sh*ts on him he is back to Los Santos Arc CJ who just wants to prove himself to his brother and thats it. Nothing about him says "savvy, business-minded crime boss". Just like with SA in general, CJ's character changes depending on the current mission/arc. Hell he even returns to the hood & gangbanging, making his whole Journey kind of pointless. Its as if Tommy would somehow join the mob again.

 

And yeah thats kind of the problem with CJ, its never his intention to do anything. He just does what he is told.Truth tells him to get a jetpack from a secret army base and he does it, Woozie tells him about the Casino business and he joins, Madd Dogg says he wants to go home and he is suddenly ready to go back, Sweet says to go back to the hood again and he does it despite achieving so much.

 

SA's story isn't hard to understand, its just an entertaining unfocused trainwreck.

Edited by lil weasel
reduced huge quote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Official General

 

 

 

<< reduced post quote>>

 

No its more likely that CJ stopped caring about taking revenge on Smoke. When Sweet was released he just wanted to get back to the mansion and show him everything he achieved. He didn't care about revenge or the hood anymore.

 

And CJ never really matured. As soon as Sweet is released and sh*ts on him he is back to Los Santos Arc CJ who just wants to prove himself to his brother and thats it. Nothing about him says "savvy, business-minded crime boss". Just like with SA in general, CJ's character changes depending on the current mission/arc. Hell he even returns to the hood & gangbanging, making his whole Journey kind of pointless. Its as if Tommy would somehow join the mob again.

 

And yeah thats kind of the problem with CJ, its never his intention to do anything. He just does what he is told.Truth tells him to get a jetpack from a secret army base and he does it, Woozie tells him about the Casino business and he joins, Madd Dogg says he wants to go home and he is suddenly ready to go back, Sweet says to go back to the hood again and he does it despite achieving so much.

 

SA's story isn't hard to understand, its just an entertaining unfocused trainwreck.

 

 

* I slightly disagree, not entirely. While you're correct about CJ appearing to care more about his business interests and money more than his gang and his hood when Sweet is released, you overlooked the fact that Big Smoke's betrayal was still eating at him deep on the inside. This was made clear in cut scene when he speaks to Kendl in the garage in SF and tells her how hurt he is by the betrayal, and that no matter what, he has to find Big Smoke for a final showdown. This indicates that it was always gonna be his intention to get revenge on Big Smoke at some point.

 

* When I say CJ developed into a "savvy business-minded crime boss", I never meant it like he was some white-collar criminal genius or mastermind that you see typically in mafia-styled crime groups. I meant it in way to show how very opportunistic he was - he was able to capitalise on the unforeseen situations he found himself in and use it to his full advantage to gain legitimate or semi-legitimate business interests that made him money for profit. He took up Cesar's idea fort illegal racing, won the garage, set up his garage business, then made friends with those mechanic guys, who put him on the idea of stealing cars for cash, he took it up, and then invested in Wang Cars to disguise it and boom - he has a money-making car business. On top of that, the assets feature alone pretty much explains why he would have become more business-minded anyway.

 

 

* I don't think its too important to get a proper reason for CJ going back to his hood to help Sweet and their gang regain it. He is GSF for life and loyal to them, that is enough of a reason. It don't really matter whether it was under duress or not, CJ is GSF and would have probably done what he needed to do for the greater good of the gang anyway.

 

* I agree, not the best GTA story, but still highly entertaining to me, and that is MUCH better than finding it boring like V's story. I'v never found any GTA main story boring apart from V's.

Edited by Official General

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lil weasel

To SURVIVE while destroying the hard drugs syndicate. And as a side venture, Get his Brother out of Prison

 

 

"Story" is merely the connection between "missions" (use of the controls to produce movement so the player can show skill. A "story" makes the movements more meaningful to the Player.

Lack of details in the "story" allows the player's imagination to be more active.

 

All "story" is to direct the player to the End Credits, while having fun in the meantime.

The caracters are all intended to reach the end and make the series desirable to own.

The direction of action is the mind child from the collaboration of the Story Writers, Editor, Producer, and Publisher to reach the goal of sales.

It is a Video Drama for entertainment, with some mystery as it progresses.

What & Why are for the Player to imagine, with minimal guidence.

Edited by lil weasel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Journey_95

 

 

 

 

<< reduced post quote>>

 

No its more likely that CJ stopped caring about taking revenge on Smoke. When Sweet was released he just wanted to get back to the mansion and show him everything he achieved. He didn't care about revenge or the hood anymore.

 

And CJ never really matured. As soon as Sweet is released and sh*ts on him he is back to Los Santos Arc CJ who just wants to prove himself to his brother and thats it. Nothing about him says "savvy, business-minded crime boss". Just like with SA in general, CJ's character changes depending on the current mission/arc. Hell he even returns to the hood & gangbanging, making his whole Journey kind of pointless. Its as if Tommy would somehow join the mob again.

 

And yeah thats kind of the problem with CJ, its never his intention to do anything. He just does what he is told.Truth tells him to get a jetpack from a secret army base and he does it, Woozie tells him about the Casino business and he joins, Madd Dogg says he wants to go home and he is suddenly ready to go back, Sweet says to go back to the hood again and he does it despite achieving so much.

 

SA's story isn't hard to understand, its just an entertaining unfocused trainwreck.

 

 

* I slightly disagree, not entirely. While you're correct about CJ appearing to care more about his business interests and money more than his gang and his hood when Sweet is released, you overlooked the fact that Big Smoke's betrayal was still eating at him deep on the inside. This was made clear in cut scene when he speaks to Kendl in the garage in SF and tells her how hurt he is by the betrayal, and that no matter what, he has to find Big Smoke for a final showdown. This indicates that it was always gonna be his intention to get revenge on Big Smoke at some point.

 

* When I say CJ developed into a "savvy business-minded crime boss", I never meant it like he was some white-collar criminal genius or mastermind that you see typically in mafia-styled crime groups. I meant it in way to show how very opportunistic he was - he was able to capitalise on the unforeseen situations he found himself in and use it to his full advantage to gain legitimate or semi-legitimate business interests that made him money for profit. He took up Cesar's idea fort illegal racing, won the garage, set up his garage business, then made friends with those mechanic guys, who put him on the idea of stealing cars for cash, he took it up, and then invested in Wang Cars to disguise it and boom - he has a money-making car business. On top of that, the assets feature alone pretty much explains why he would have become more business-minded anyway.

 

 

* I don't think its too important to get a proper reason for CJ going back to his hood to help Sweet and their gang regain it. He is GSF for life and loyal to them, that is enough of a reason. I don't really matter whether it was under duress or not, CJ is GSF and would have probably done what he needed to do for the greater good of the gang anyway.

 

* I agree, not the best GTA story, but still highly entertaining to me, and that is MUCH better than finding it boring like V's story. I'v never found any GTA main story boring apart from V's.

 

That was the San Fierro arc though, back when he was still focused on revenge. He brought the Loco Syndicate down and killed Ryder. I'm more talking about after that part, once he gets into the casino business and finds Madd Dogg his plans seem to change.

 

I mean once Sweet is released he doesnt even want to go back to the hood. He is even talking about stuff like the hood dragging him down in the past and that they have much better opportunities now. So I really think that if Sweet didn't give him sh*t over this he would have stayed away from Smoke and GSF for good. Especially since Smoke wasn't really even going against him anymore.

 

Fair enough, thought you meant him becoming a boss in terms of personality.

 

I would say that the peaks of SA's story (LS missions especially) are far better than V but overall both are messy. At least SA focuses on gangs though and not too much on the government bullsh*t (only Mike Toreno missions) but then I prefer Michael over CJ easily soo

Edited by Journey_95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lil weasel

People, REDUCE the Quotes (EDIT) to just what if anything, is needed for your reply.

Stop the Huge Quote Trains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BowlingMaster

I'd say his main goal is to bail Sweet out of jail. But since C.R.A.S.H. has him grabbed by the balls he has to be their errand boy for a while. And then some business opportunities appear and he takes them. I get what you mean, it feels like we are playing a completely different story sometimes, specially from San Fierro onwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am Shaegar

His main goal is to get GSF back on its feet, while keeping Sweet alive in prison. Its easier said than done when you are out of power and struggling to make a living for yourself to begin with. So, the first priority is to find any useful work for obvious reasons - cash, and gradually, meeting various people and making good contacts in the rest of the state, CJ continues to move closer in getting his goals. But, then, there comes a twist. CJ becomes victim to his desire for power just like Smoke, which is nicely explored with LV missions arc. It showed how CJ had grown and matured so far.

Amazing story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • 1 User Currently Viewing
    0 members, 0 Anonymous, 1 Guest

×

Important Information

By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.