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Zoobz

Van der Linde Gang: Info and Discussion

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Tampinha85

Some thoughts (great topic btw):

 

“John Marston was saved from a hanging by Dutch and subsequently joined his gang, learning to read under Dutch's tutelage”

 

Perhaps thats how we are going to meet John in RDR2? In a mission to rescue his ass from hanging? I can only imagine how cool it would be to go on a mission to rescue some prisioners and without notice, one of them is John, what a blast and a surprise it would be. Also i think well see Jhon only after 2/3 into the story.

 

 

 

 

About the “you got my back?” scene:

I get the felling Arthur actually dreads Dutch, the way the actor delivers the line...his speech is unease and "forced". Like, reassuring Dutch (whose mental meltdown we are probably going to see throughout the story) that no one is trying to betray him. He feels “tired” saying...”Always Dutch....”. I dont think Arthur likes Dutch at all and i think theres a big reason why hes in Dutchs service. Does anyone else feel like this watching this scene? Sorry if i couldnt make it more clear because my english suck.

Edited by Tampinha85
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Rockstar Vienna

“John Marston was saved from a hanging by Dutch and subsequently joined his gang, learning to read under Dutch's tutelage”

 

Perhaps thats how we are going to meet John in RDR2? In a mission to rescue his ass from hanging? I can only imagine how cool it would be to go on a mission to rescue some prisioners and without notice, one of them is John, what a blast and a surprise it would be.

That would be epic! Great idea man :^: But how young was John back than? In his teens iirc, right!? Since John was 38 during the events of RDR (1911) I guess the rescue took place around 1890. Who knows... Dutch certainly looks 15-20 years younger in the RDR2 trailer imo.

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Tampinha85

Honestly i havent put much thought on it and i didnt remember John was almost 40 in RDR, knowing this, seems highly unlikely we are going to rescue Jhon but i also dont think he is in the gang at the beginning of the game.

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SuperKitsune

 

Bill would be the kind of guy that kills and loots for fun during war (and after). I never liked that guy, not one bit.

A mercenary type of guy, yeah. Shootin and lootin!

Add a little drop of sadism and two drops of restraint problems to that and you've got yourself a dangerous, low IQ maniac.

 

I think we're gonna see Bill do all kinds of messed up stuff during rdr2. The guy's a savage in the most negative way.

Edited by SuperKitsune
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Hunter S. Compton

 

 

Bill would be the kind of guy that kills and loots for fun during war (and after). I never liked that guy, not one bit.

A mercenary type of guy, yeah. Shootin and lootin!

Add a little drop of sadism and two drops of restraint problems to that and you've got yourself a dangerous, low IQ maniac.

 

I think we're gonna see Bill do all kinds of messed up stuff during rdr2. The guy's a savage in the most negative way.

 

I don't believe this is true in the slightest. In fact, if it is true, I would consider it a continuity failure. First off, and maybe this assessment is completely off base, but Dutch's Gang were not opportunists, no matter how cruel they may have been. They were idealogues. I think that John Marston is a good man, and I think the only way that he was ever able to do what he did, is because Dutch convinced him that he was doing the right thing. He was an orphan. Society had failed him. He wanted to reconstruct society in the vision that he shared with Dutch, and they were all the same way.

 

Despite Bill's evident hatred for John, John does not reciprocate that negativity. When Jack mentions him late in the story, John says that both Bill and Dutch were "good men who went bad (he doesn't say the same about javier, who was always described as particularly bitter). What strikes me as Bill's biggest flaw is his cowardice. He ran away when you capture Norman Deek, he ran away when you attack Fort Mercer, and he ran away again in Mexico (you catch him escaping and kill him). I think we're going to see that cowardice, and bitterness manifest itself in interesting ways, and probably in cruel ways. But Bill is evil because he is weak, and because he is aware of and afraid of his own weakness. NOT because he is ruthless and pragmatic. Maybe his violence is an attempt to re-assure himself of his power, or to convince himself that he is powerful.

Edited by Hunter S. Compton
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SuperKitsune

^ Well yeah, he obviously is a coward and it also might be a reason for his violent temper.

 

 

But like I said Bill is not the brightest light in the Christmas tree and and is a sadist.

 

When John first confronted Bill at Fort Mercer, the guy litteraly got agitated because John used the word "implore" and commented to John that he always used "them fancy words".

 

When John first got shot at fort mercer, it was a bullet to the ribs. Something that 6/10 doesn't kill you right away. Instead of finishing him right away, they let him die in agony in the dreaded desert sun, right in front of the fort.

 

Now of course, it had to go this way, but it still shows that Bill is a low IQ sadist.

Edited by SuperKitsune
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Yelda

Very interesting discussion here.

Maybe we all fool ourselves and R* will surprise us with the characters.

 

I didn't like Bill in the first game, but we also saw more of him than Dutch and Javier. Maybe Bill isn't the worst? would a little boy call him uncle? Anyway ... I like his young look in the trailer. The beard is cool.I'm very much looking forward to him and I'm not trying to judge him how he treated John.

 

Dutch? My favorite character next to Arthur. I think he's really interesting.

Javier? I can't say anything about him.

John? Maybe he surprises us the most? Maybe he's a real scumbag before the events in RDR? Dutch could shape him as he wanted and had no scruples to push him into this criminal life.

If he and Javier are involved in the game at all.

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SuperKitsune

Yeah, you're right. I guess we can't say for sure how they'll be and interact with each other.

 

Even though we've seen less than 5 minutes of Javier in rdr1, he looked like a very unpredictable, sneaky character.

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Yelda

Although when I think about it ... I completely forgot what Bill and his gang did on Ridgewood Farm ... Maybe you're right about Bill. Who knows what else will come out? What crimes have the other members, including John, done for Dutch?

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Cozzi

^ Well yeah, he obviously is a coward and it also might be a reason for his violent temper.

 

 

But like I said Bill is not the brightest light in the Christmas tree and and is a sadist.

 

When John first confronted Bill at Fort Mercer, the guy litteraly got agitated because John used the word "implore" and commented to John that he always used "them fancy words".

 

When John first got shot at fort mercer, it was a bullet to the ribs. Something that 6/10 doesn't kill you right away. Instead of finishing him right away, they let him die in agony in the dreaded desert sun, right in front of the fort.

 

Now of course, it had to go this way, but it still shows that Bill is a low IQ sadist.

Short vocabulary doesnt equal low IQ. I took those lines to mean more of "Shut up with your damned scholarly talk, John, were all trash here and youre not better than me!" kind of a 'get off of your high horse' if you will.

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SuperKitsune

 

^ Well yeah, he obviously is a coward and it also might be a reason for his violent temper.

 

 

But like I said Bill is not the brightest light in the Christmas tree and and is a sadist.

 

When John first confronted Bill at Fort Mercer, the guy litteraly got agitated because John used the word "implore" and commented to John that he always used "them fancy words".

 

When John first got shot at fort mercer, it was a bullet to the ribs. Something that 6/10 doesn't kill you right away. Instead of finishing him right away, they let him die in agony in the dreaded desert sun, right in front of the fort.

 

Now of course, it had to go this way, but it still shows that Bill is a low IQ sadist.

Short vocabulary doesnt equal low IQ. I took those lines to mean more of "Shut up with your damned scholarly talk, John, were all trash here and youre not better than me!" kind of a 'get off of your high horse' if you will.

Yeah, that's absolutely true. I can also understand that point of view.

 

But you know, I just have the impression that Bill was Dutch his dumb muscle. Like a pitbull that folows orders without question if you let him loot and kill once in awhile.

 

Again, I can be completely wrong. I just find it interesting to speculate. The game really had an impact on me when I was a teen.

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Alexlecj

About Javier and the gang (The Gates of El Presidio):

 

John Marston : Escuella was always a torn man. A cynic who desperately wanted to be a romantic.
Abraham Reyes : Whereas you, John, are a romantic who wants to be a cynic.
John Marston : Javier would die fightin' for what he believed in. He had a lot of passion, but no love. Although he really admired Dutch, of course, but then we all did.
Abraham Reyes : He was the leader of your little group of fortune hunters, verdad?
John Marston : When Dutch started fallin' apart, it hit Javier harder than any of us. He went crazy. It was like the one thing he'd ever believed in turned out to be a fraud.
Abraham Reyes : You talk about him fondly.
John Marston : It ain't exactly fondness. We was close once. But he never cared for me or anybody else, not any of his so-called brothers. He left me to die, when he had the chance to save me.
Abraham Reyes : And didn't he teach you any Spanish during all the time you were together?
John Marston : I remember cabrón being used a lot.

Edited by Alexlecj
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Hunter S. Compton

Well we know that Dutch went crazy and got murderous. John says here that Javier had “passion but no love” and that he “went crazy” so he probably got more violent as well. I don’t think he was always like this but I definitely see what you’re saying Kitsune. To kind of merge our 2 opinions... we know that bill completely mega f*cked ridge wood farm and also had no qualms kidnapping Bonnie and trying to extort the McFarlanes... but if likes killing so much, why so regularly abandon actual shootouts? I think Bill really is just like dumb muscle. All he’s really good at is violence and without Dutch’s guidance and direction the only people he’s able to overpower are people who are obviously weaker than him. He’s a savage, and his gang isn’t no match for a few decent gunmen with their wits about them. He likes killing but he hyst isn’t very good at it. He knows how to be brutal and Dutch nre how to use that, but I his own he’s just a common thug without the brain or the guts to make anything of himself.

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Cozzi

why are we letting this thread die? I really like this one and I'm sure we haven't extrapolated all the info from RDR1 yet. especially the philosophy of dutch's gang. i guess Dutch was jut tired of big oil tycoons and railroad owners and Andrew Carnegie types f*cking over the working poor?

 

also im interested in this line

 

Marston: It's all in your head, Dutch. That's what drove you insane. What have you done? Apart from murder people. What have you changed, Dutch?
Dutch: More than you'll ever know.

 

do you guys think Dutch is completely out of it at this point or maybe he sees something the rest of us don't? he hasnt seemingly changed much in the scope of the game, unless you count butterfly effect type things. maybe it a meta thing where dutch knows the wild west will later be romanticized in books (and games lol) and become this whole thing.

...
... or hes out of his damned mind and delusional.

Edited by Cozzi
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executor404

Marston: It's all in your head, Dutch. That's what drove you insane. What have you done? Apart from murder people. What have you changed, Dutch?

Dutch: More than you'll ever know.

do you guys think Dutch is completely out of it at this point or maybe he sees something the rest of us don't? he hasnt seemingly changed much in the scope of the game, unless you count butterfly effect type things. maybe it a meta thing where dutch knows the wild west will later be romanticized in books (and games lol) and become this whole thing.

...

... or hes out of his damned mind and delusional.

Well he gave the authorities an excuse to take away freedom of the people. The state said they want more lawmen in the west and their excuse was Dutchs gang killing people. I think it is the same controversial discussion we have today about terrorism and surveillance.

 

i guess Dutch was jut tired of big oil tycoons and railroad owners and Andrew Carnegie types f*cking over the working poor?

 

From my perspective Dutch was always obsessed with freedom and was an example of how people do really bad things in the name of the good (communism).

Dutch was no communist but just like communists he was ready to slaughter people for his ideology.

 

To me he felt not so much like someone who is tired of the companies, but more like someone who is tired of the government and their increasing influence in the west and taking away freedom.

The Oil Tycoons and Railroad Owners were just one piece of the puzzle. I think what Dutch despised the most was the state becoming corrupt and the whole system becoming an oligarchy.

 

It's just my theory but that is what I like about RDR. R* doesn't take everything away and we can still imagine some things based on our life experiences :)

Edited by TheExecutor10
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greenrock

I still think Arthur is not a proper member of the gang, but someone that is close with Dutch and helps him out with stuff

 

but does his own thing

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Cozzi

I still think Arthur is not a proper member of the gang, but someone that is close with Dutch and helps him out with stuff

 

but does his own thing

I cant tell when you're serious, man, but with as little as we know that could still be possible.

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SuperKing573

Maybe at the start he isnt in the gang and only doing the grunt work (getting money from people for Dutch) but it would be great to work up through the ranks and have a cool ceremony with all of the other 5 members

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Cozzi

Maybe at the start he isnt in the gang and only doing the grunt work (getting money from people for Dutch) but it would be great to work up through the ranks and have a cool ceremony with all of the other 5 members

Well its been theorized that because Arthur didn't get mentioned in the first game, that he only touches with Dutch's gang on a tangent of his own, or becomes a part of the gang like you said. But I think we know for a fact that there were more than just the six people in RDR1(John, Dutch, Uncle, Javier, Bill, Abigail) in Dutch's gang? Right? I think there's something from RDR1 that says that if anyone can help. The only thing off the top of my head is a like 12 minute intro movie for RDR where there's a flashback of like 7 or 8 riders coming through the fog (but you cant make out who they are) when john talks about being with the gang. So i feel like there's a solid ground for it to go either way really.

 

But knowing Rockstar they don't like telling the same stories with the same characters and such so something will almost definitely happen that will bring us away from Dutch's gang. I feel more sure of this because of how they like to try and mislead us with marketing. "the story of outlaw Arthur Morgan and the Van der Linde gang..." like the gang is gonna be a really big aspect. i'd say they spend a quarter of the game, or half the game with the gang at most. I'd be happy if the whole game was that way though.

 

The thought of that makes me wonder if the game is going have big time jumps. I mean if we're gonna learn the full story of the gang we need flashbacks, a lot of dialogue, or big time jumps that span a few years. RDR1 had one after the last story mission, and Bully had seasons, its not out of the question for R* to do that.

Edited by Cozzi
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SuperKing573

Those are some interesting points. Maybe since they separate Arthur from the gang, it wouldnt be crazy to think that Arthur is working undercover for Edgar Ross to help track down the gang. It also goes a long with why Arthur isnt discussed in RDR because he ended up being a dirty rat.

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Cozzi

Yeah i was thinking maybe "when the time comes you gotta run and dont look back this is over" might be to John and maybe Arthur does rat out the gang but john has a family and kind of wants to live a normal life so maybe it's like Arthur is setting him up to get out of it. But that doesnt work if the catalyst for john leaving happened on the ferry raid. Maybe things went bad before that. All speculation though.

 

Maybe one of the gang members were told by dutch to leave john for dead at the raid because he was paranoid and thought john was the rat. Idk. Lol

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greenrock

what if Arthur is a member of Dutch's gang, but has alot of autonomy and runs his own little sub gang within the gang

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Dee.

Nice thread! I didnt really understand most of the relationships between the gang's members while playing through RDR. So it seems to me Dutch was the father figure, bill was jealous in a way of John, and Javier and John are like brothers. Really makes me think that Arthur isnt directly related to the gang but is a henchman that leads his own operation but still works and is loyal to Dutch.

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Cozzi

Do we know anything about if Dutch and his gang were cooperative with other outlaws in the region or not?

I think judging by the way he got the natives to form another kind of gang he might've been cooperative with others.

Edited by Cozzi

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DexMacLeod

Do we know anything about if Dutch and his gang were cooperative with other outlaws in the region or not?

 

I think judging by the way he got the natives to form another kind of gang he might've been cooperative with others.

I don't know, Dutch seems to have trust issues so I don't really see him working with other gangs. It's why I've never really liked the "Arthur isn't really part of the gang" theory. Doesn't really make sense to me that he'd trust some outsider with important missions if he had a gang of loyal men to do it.

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Mas u Sees

 

Do we know anything about if Dutch and his gang were cooperative with other outlaws in the region or not?

 

I think judging by the way he got the natives to form another kind of gang he might've been cooperative with others.

I don't know, Dutch seems to have trust issues so I don't really see him working with other gangs. It's why I've never really liked the "Arthur isn't really part of the gang" theory. Doesn't really make sense to me that he'd trust some outsider with important missions if he had a gang of loyal men to do it.

 

Doesn't Rockstar straight up tell us that Arthur is part of the Van der linde gang in their subtext to the Trailer?

 

 

 

the story of outlaw Arthur Morgan and the Van der Linde gang as they rob, fight and steal their way across the vast and rugged heart of America in order to survive.

This pretty much confirms to me that Arthur is part of Dutchs gang and both will play significant roles in the RDR II Storyline.

 

However I do believe that the Van der linde gang was a lot bigger than people thought, and I believe Arthur will be partly recruiting for the gang and deciding which people ride with him.

Depending on which NPCs he decides to get into the gang, story outcomes change.

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YES IT'S ME ARTHUR

My favorite van der linde member is

1.Arthur morgan

2.blonde girl

3.billbitch

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Money Over Bullshit

Some thoughts (great topic btw):

 

John Marston was saved from a hanging by Dutch and subsequently joined his gang, learning to read under Dutch's tutelage

 

Perhaps thats how we are going to meet John in RDR2? In a mission to rescue his ass from hanging? I can only imagine how cool it would be to go on a mission to rescue some prisioners and without notice, one of them is John, what a blast and a surprise it would be. Also i think well see Jhon only after 2/3 into the story.

 

 

 

 

About the you got my back? scene:

I get the felling Arthur actually dreads Dutch, the way the actor delivers the line...his speech is unease and "forced". Like, reassuring Dutch (whose mental meltdown we are probably going to see throughout the story) that no one is trying to betray him. He feels tired saying...Always Dutch..... I dont think Arthur likes Dutch at all and i think theres a big reason why hes in Dutchs service. Does anyone else feel like this watching this scene? Sorry if i couldnt make it more clear because my english suck.

Is it actually ever mentioned at what point in his life John joined the gang? I always thought it was when he was a teenager but is this ever actually established? The reason I ask is because if it isn't stated then that scene with John in the trailer could be him being saved from said hanging. Anybody?

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rtie

He joined as an impressionable teenager as his mother had died during childbirth and his father passed later on.

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Money Over Bullshit

He joined as an impressionable teenager as his mother had died during childbirth and his father passed later on.

And that's actually mentioned in game is it? Or just an assumption? Just want to be sure.

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