Who's a better leader CJ or Tommy?

[KingD19]

Does anyone think Tommy is the best leader in the gta series? For the past 2days I've been playing vice city and I noticed Tommy has the mindset and attitude of a natural leader. Even the people he works for respects the hell out of him like no other character I've seen Im around the part where I killed diaz and took over his mansion and now on a rise and Tommy doesn't tolerate foolishness or messing up like with Lance when Lance messes up he hears it from Tommy and then Lance just called me saying that I make him look bad in front of the boys and treat him like a fool and Tommy constantly warns him not to take it to that level and he yells at the goons if he catches them sitting on their ass in one mission I remember him telling them "get in the car useless" And another thing I remember in the begining of the game when Sonny called Tommy asking him about the money Tommy just calmly let's him know he would get it back and Sonny responds "I know you will" And other stuff comparing this to cj Carl seems like he's sometimes bullied into doing things and scolded a lot like Lance Tommy would of never let tbone mendez put a gun to his head and threaten him or hold him down in the car while toreno took his wallet can anybody let me know what Tommy will turn into as I progress through the game?

Edited November 19, 2017 by KingD19

[Steezy.]

Tommy is a way better leader than CJ. Tommy never ran away when sh*t hit the fan. He took his consequences like a man, did the prison time for the mafia without snitching, and came out only to get right back to business. Of course once Tommy realizes that Sonny set him up he goes on to do his own thing in VC. Tommy also has balls, he insults his enemies right in their faces, pissing them off before he kills them. He's basically the Italian Tony Montana (Scarface).

[watersgta3]

Tommy for sure. He's intelligent, pragmatic, and always plans ahead before he takes action. CJ was a badass too, but he doesn't really have the attributes of a leader. He's more of a soldier compared to Tommy.

[Algonquin Assassin]

I could never take CJ seriously as a leader which is why I'm still adamant that Cesar should've been protagonist as he fits the bill much better. CJ's nothing more than a street punk. His inconsistent/bi-polar kind of personality doesn't help either. One moment he's sh*tting bricks because Big Smoke threatens him with a bat. The next he's being a hero burying some random foreman alive for cat calling his sister and messing with the Italian mob? And this guy's is the supposed most feared "gangsta" on the West Coast? Bitch please.

 

Tommy might be 1 dimensional, but that works in his favour. He's only presented to us with one side and that's being ruthless and aggressive on his way to the top.. He doesn't let people walk over him and if he wants something he takes it by force.

 

He's the perfect archetype of the Italian mafiaoso boss.

[jaljax]

I'd have to say Tommy ... I'm going to get a little off topic for a second , but CJ is way too overrated & damn annoying.

[KingD19]

 

 

I could never take CJ seriously as a leader which is why I'm still adamant that Cesar should've been protagonist as he fits the bill much better. CJ's nothing more than a street punk. His inconsistent/bi-polar kind of personality doesn't help either. One moment he's sh*tting bricks because Big Smoke threatens him with a bat. The next he's being a hero burying some random foreman alive for cat calling his sister and messing with the Italian mob? And this guy's is the supposed most feared "gangsta" on the West Coast? Bitch please.

Tommy might be 1 dimensional, but that works in his favour. He's only presented to us with one side and that's being ruthless and aggressive on his way to the top.. He doesn't let people walk over him and if he wants something he takes it by force.

He's the perfect archetype of the Italian mafiaoso boss.

Ceaser is exactly what CJ should of been ceaser and cj have this like a kind of Tommy and Lance relationship but I personally think that if they did make GTA sa stories years ago it should of been based around ceaser if Luis and Johnny can have a whole game why can't ceaser.

Also nobody really respects cj in Los Santos at all his gang always crack jokes on him about his appearance to his face even peds do it. I was a victim of this also I think the direction of how gta sa did the being a gangsta from the hood finally in gta made us overlook cj for actually being a overrated character

When I play the story of vc Tommy's vibe in cut scenes is "I don't need your protection or help I just need my money " I love that about Tommy because he's a true alpha like how he has self reliance all in almost every situation.Nobody actually tells Tommy what to do they just tell him where to go and what to expect and Tommy talks after the cutscene of what he's gonna do and what's that best option compare this to playing with cj I was just doing what every and anybody told me and how they wanted me to do it. When og locc sends you to steal a rhyme book from a mansion something is wrong

Tommy role is so serious that a typical person would gravitate towards cj that's how I was for years until I fully set back and played the game and started learning about the characters. Some people don't even play through vice city long enough to learn about Tommy to understand him so they would just see him as a boring white guy in a blue shirt that's how it was for me for years until I got older and now he's my second favorite protagonist behind Niko I wish gta v had a character like those two only person who is kinda close to Tommy would be Michael.

[Paisan™]

Tommy, because he didn't run away when sh*t hit the fan, as Steezy said. Throughout the whole of Vice City, everything you do is to get closer to Sonny, and to get more power in the city. Everything relates back to Tommy getting more power for himself and those he trusts.

 

CJ, however, in the first part of SA is all about Grove Street, and he'll do anything for the Grove. A few missions later and he's out in Whetstone whacking a guy because C.R.A.S.H. told him to, Then he's in SF, then Verdant Meadows, then LV. It's like Grove Street doesn't even exist to CJ anymore by this part of the game. Then, Sweet's released from prison, and the only thing Sweet wants to see is Grove Street. CJ doesn't care about the Grove anymore by this point, but because Sweet told him the hood matters, he automatically turns into some ruthless gang banger again.

 

San Andreas, is a great game, but story wise it's very inconsistent.

Edited November 20, 2017 by ClaudeIzABadAzz

[Naughtius Maximus]

Tommy and CJ are not even on the same par. To start with CJ, the game wants to make you believe that he's the perfect everyman archetype, but it is far from correct. As much as Sweet is not the perfect leader because he is so idealistically in love with the hood culture, CJ is not better than him as well. Only quality feature of a leader Carl possesses is his wits that can occasionally make him more than "go, arm up and shoot sh*t out" sort of guy. CJ lacks courage and is inconsistent with what he really does aim to do. Well, you can't even define him as a "caring leader" because once he has gone a self-unaware quest of becoming rich, he completely lacks interest in chasing the hood dream. The only reason why he still kicks it with Grove Street and works to clean up Los Santos in the last chapter is that Sweet is not willing to give up despite CJ's offer to leave everything behind and enjoy their new rich-ass potential life.

 

Without hesitation, Tommy is definitely better at leading. Why? Because he's almost a perfect mix of brains and brawls. He cooks up almost no-backfire plans to place him as the ultimate king of the city, both as a criminal and a philanthropist. Where brain doesn't do the magic, Tommy is man enough to take the matter in his own hands and impose fear, terror and violence by himself. Yeah, Tommy is stone cold, pompous, ruthless and self-seeking... as much as these features are why he faces severe hostility (and damages his own efficiency) but also make him a great de-facto leader. In this regard, I think of Tommy's situation as Michael Corleone, a huge *sshole who ruled like a king.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Rebel Yell

[combustion]

Tommy without a doubt.

 

CJ isn't fit for leadership, and he himself is aware of that. All through the story he spends time taking orders from a variety of freaks, with no goal in sight. Tommy on the other hand began his drug empire on the second quarter of the story. CJ isn't leadership material. This is evident by him fleeing after sh*t hit the fan, and by him completely forgetting the gang soon after he becomes a rich 'businessman'. That's totally not what a leader would do. He is also unpredicatable and inconsistent: he proceeds to bury a construction worker for teasing his sister, but then feels guilty for making Madd Dogg feel suicidal. CJ spent the former half of the story being the bitch of some corrupt cops, a hippie, an incompetent rapper and some gangsters who would then betray him, and then spends the latter half being the Woozie's and Toreno's bitch. Of all the things he did throught the story, none were planned by him. All he did was follow orders, from infiltrating the Loco Syndicate to robbing Caligula's.

 

Tommy is a leader. CJ, in all fairness, is just your average street enforcer. All brawn, no brain. Tommy is a drug baron at the end of the game, CJ is just a lieutenant of an half-a*sed street-gang, with no clear future in sight and a high probability of becoming obsolete.

[Great Britain]

 

I mean....COME ON...was there ever a doubt?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Great Britain

[hlennarz]

YOU CAN'T STOP TOMMY, YOU BUSTA CARL !

[jaqub]

CJ cares nuthin' about the grove, while tommy's buisness comes with hard work and the goal was only to pay someones f*ckers dept!

[Femme Fatale]

Obviously Tommy.

[Eugene H. Krabs]

Tommy. The best CJ could do is run a ballet company.

[Tycek]

Like people above have stated it's not really a competition. CJ was a tool in the hands of everybody he met. He was used by CRASH, Ryder, Big Smoke, Toreno, etc. doing their dirty job, without realizing or being too naive to understand what he just did. He basically helped build Big Smoke his empire, he helped Crash to cover their tracks and they would probably get away with their crimes right under CJ's nose if it wasn't for Cesar, Kendl or Sweet. CJ wasn't even able to get the Families together so he's far from being a leader, good or bad.

 

Tommy on the other hand took the city by himself and he knew where to push and where to withdraw. He made valuable friendships through his actions, which allowed him to seize the most profitable assets and even repay his own boss. Some may call Tommy a psychopath and ruthless bastard, but to be honest you need balls to run a whole town and Tommy had them in place. And these weren't little bitty chiquita ones.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Tycek

[KingD19]

Just imagine them adding Tommy in San Andreas ? Rock star made sure not add him because he probably would take over las Venturas have a lot of influence in each city in San Andreas people like Tommy always ends up there Tommy would have more control of the game then cj and cj is the main protagonist.

 

i didn't even mention the vercetti gang those dudes are just insane unstoppable forces nobody wants it with vercetti gang we had the Haitians running on their own block in little Haiti today they tried to shoot but we overpowered them quick I feel untouchable in my game when I play as Tommy I feel like his dangerous leader that nobody wants to get on the bad side of or the consequences will be horrible I had to role play cj into the character I want him to be but Tommy Is bad ass in story and outside of story I love GTA SA but hate the story after Los Santos the mafia part interest me tho and working with Kent Paul and Ken Rosenberg and meeting Salvatore

 

When I beat gta vc and roleplay for Tommy I'm just gonna have him lay back and enjoy his success and spend his time at the pole position club i don't like playing my gtas unrealistically I like to do my research of what they would be doing after the game and add it into the game not going around shooting police and npcs all day

Edited November 21, 2017 by KingD19

[jaljax]

That would make the story even worse then it already is ... Plus both of them are not even relateable taking in Tommy is the kingpin mobster of Vice (Cocaine Paradise Of The 1980's), but then there is CJ that is a gangbanger from the criminal underworld of the 1990's with a broken family & all of the sudden his childhood friends betray him then he goes across states to leave the gangster palace of Los Santos ... This is just my opinion of course lol.

[Cyber_Renaissance]

The biggest evidence to me that Tommy feels like a better leader all around than CJ is one is the fact that after I got my hands on the pastel suit I never put it off again. On the other hand, I rarely ever make CJ wear anything else other than his white tank top and occasionally a green hoodie. Totally different feeling altogether.

[Big_Smiley]

I feel like this topic was created to sh*t on Carl lmao

 

There's no doubt that Mr. Vercetti "The hardwood butcher" would be best leader. There's no doubt simple as that. Tommy is a f*cking kingpin in VC. You can't compare a highly criminal organized mobb boss to a simple young dude like CJ who only runs a mid to big gang from SA. Doesn't matter if he is considered an OG or anything. Tommy on the side is a whole lot smater and wiser and has a pair of HUGE balls than the busta Carl lol. I admit that even though SA is still my favorite gta but comparing "leader wise" Tommy no doubt come in first. You would have to have a like three or more pair of balls to call Tommy a pussy. Not even bland psychopath Trevor could compare to him. Tommy was very well written for being a 2002 character. Something R* loss with writing characters in V

 

 

"Once a busta...always a busta" -Sherm head Ryder

[Piggsy pls]

Tommy was very well written for being a 2002 character.

Eh can't agree with that, he was still a pretty bland character writing wise, even in 2002 there were still characters in games that had more substance.

 

That said, he was still better written and a better leader than CJ, mainly because CJ was hardly a leader at all. He's not even the leader of the Grove (Sweet is) and he ran away wherever he could, not to mention letting people needlessly walk over him. And man, that cutscene with Catalina holding him at gunpoint is embarrassing.

[DK06282000]

Come on, CJ fans! Even if you don't like Tommy, there's no possible way you can sit here and tell me that CJ would make a much better leader than Tommy. And this is coming from a huge CJ fan himself. Tommy had the brains, experience, and mindset as a competent leader. He knew how to run a business and had a mixture of brains and brawn, meaning that if reasoning with someone wouldn't work out for him, he'll just take them by force. Yeah Tommy still had his flaws, but overall, he still had a lot of experience

 

While I'm a huge CJ fan, he really doesn't have the right aspects of being a leader. He was a young gangbanger without much experience and really relied more on his brother when it came to taking back the hood. I mean think about it. Would CJ still try to reunite the families on his own had his brother not compelled him to?

[Big_Smiley]

 

Tommy was very well written for being a 2002 character.

Eh can't agree with that, he was still a pretty bland character writing wise, even in 2002 there were still characters in games that had more substance. You make a good point there but i was referencing in thought about Claude in III that was a simple silent protagonist that didn't have a backstory.

I should have pointed that out in my post though lol

Edited November 21, 2017 by GTA_The_Series

[Algonquin Assassin]

I feel like this topic was created to sh*t on Carl lmao

 

 

As Tenpenny would say "I'll sh*t on you from such a great height you'll think God himself has crapped on you" Or something to that effect.

[Steezy.]

Tommy Vercetti:

*Was loyal to the Forelli's, so much as he went to prison for FIFTEEN YEARS for them without ratting them out and then getting straight back to working for them the second he gets out, of course this all changes once he realizes that Sonny set him up.

 

* Singlehandedly finds out who took the drugs and the money from the deal in VC, takes out Diaz and destroys his empire (mind you he's currently the biggest drug kingpin in the city) and then takes it over for himself

 

*Forms the Vercetti Gang (Mafia?) within a matter of days after taking over Diaz's empire. Rules the gang with an iron fist.

 

* Takes over numerous businesses, and even helps run these said businesses to help rake in cash.

 

* Intimidates all of his enemies (and even friends) by insulting them in their face without a care in the world. Easily kills the people he wants dead.

 

* Takes most matters into his own hands despite being the boss, gets the job done even when it goes to sh*t. Makes a fool out of Lance for not doing anything.

 

* When Sonny Forelli's men attempt to extort his businesses, Tommy singlehandedly takes them all out, essentially giving the finger to Sonny.

 

* Kills Sonny Forelli, the head of one of the biggest mafia families in LC, thus crippling the gang.

 

* Makes Vice City the center for drugs trade, becoming the new drug kingpin and making it "all down south now"

 

 

 

 

Carl Johnson:

*Leads the Grove Street Families with his brother Sweet, a street gang that is currently being crippled by the Ballas, as they gradually lose their turf, all the more while inner rivalry is going on from within the gang

 

*Runs away from the city and his issues once his younger brother Brian is killed, abandons the Families to work as an associate for Joey Leone in LC, jacking cars and robbing people

 

*Comes back once his mother is murdered to avenge her and to once again help Sweet lead GSF. For the beginning portion of the game it is assumed that the gang becomes stronger thanks to CJ's actions, gradually taking over more turf, forming an alliance with the Aztecas, and helping Ryder provide the gang with better weapons. Eventually helps Sweet reunite the Families sets (only for it to be ambushed by NOOSE) Thanks to Sweet's naivete, the gang gets ambushed by the Ballas and the police in what was supposed to be a huge gang showdown. CJ gets forced to leave LS.

 

* CJ is forced to work for several people, such as CRASH, Catalina, Toreno, The Truth, and probably others as well. He has been intimidated and caught off guard by both Catalina and T Bone Mendez. He gets beaten up by Tenpenny in a mission as well.

 

*As the game progresses on, CJ eventually forgets about the gang again, focusing on other things such as legal businesses and helping Triads, eventually getting involved in more successful endeavors, like the casino and being Mad Doggs manager.

 

* Is only reminded about the hood and the Families by Sweet once he gets out of prison. CJ even tries to convince him to forget about the hood and the homies, and that they should focus on being rich and basically famous. It isn't until they take back Grove Street that Sweet teaches CJ to never forget where you came from, no matter how successful you get in life.

 

*Endgame, CJ and Sweet (assumedly) take over all of LS, eliminating the Vagos and Ballas and destroying Big Smokes Crack Empire. CJ becomes highly respected by GSF, being able to recruit many OGs to follow him and do as he says.

 

 

Now I love SA and I think CJ is a pretty decent character, but based on these feats I'd say Tommy is by far a much better leader. He's loyal, he has balls, and he gets sh*t done. Also leading a Mafia is more powerful than leading a street gang.

[Big_Smiley]

Now I love SA and I think CJ is a pretty decent character, but based on these feats I'd say Tommy is by far a much better leader. He's loyal, he has balls, and he gets sh*t done. Also leading a Mafia is more powerful than leading a street gang.

Tommy wouldn't take any orders from anyone no matter who they were. I forgot that CJ was pretty much forced to work with CRASH with the sh*t he got in around the mission The Green Sabre. He was in his own sh*t. But still Tommy wouldn't take any orders if he was in a similar situation. He is his own man himself. All this talking about VC is making me eager to pop in the game on the old brick Ps2. Guess i'll be doing some play throughs this thanksgiving week Edited November 21, 2017 by GTA_The_Series

[The Rockstar Gamer 108]

Oh man. I miss both the games on my PC, with thousand graphic mods.

Anyway, IMO, CJ Is a better leader than Tommy.

Tommy never gave much attention to his juniors like Lance, which made him regret later at the end.

CJ could be a good leader, but his stupid brother "Sweet" couldn't keep things up. In "Green [email protected]ß®3" , we can easily make out that the whole GSF along with their head had lost the fight. CJ couldn't save them coz he arrived at the last moment. It was all Sweet's fault. He was fully dependant on his brother. He had gone to fight with the Ballad without proper planning.

CJ showed his Leadership here. He stood there and caught until the police arrived to them. At last, it was CJ, who managed to capture more than half of LS Gang Areas to find BS.

Thus, CJ is a better leader than Tommy.

[Evil empire]

Even if he has a lot of strenghts Tommy Vercetti is much too selfish. Lance who only has good intentions towards him at the beginning of the game finally betrays him disgusted by his individualism and as you can see in San Andreas despite everything Ken Rosenberg did for him Tommy gave him up. Being a leader dosn't only require strength but also the ability to build strong relationships with people who consider you as loyal and at the end of Vice City only Ken stands by Tommy's side despite all the persons he worked with.

 

On the other hand despite his lack of consistency and not having an as strong personality as Tommy CJ shows some qualities. In a short time he makes Grove street a great gang again, the only persons who betray him are people who had already betrayed Grove street. After Sweet is imprisoned he doesn't give up but keeps working hard with people he treats with loyalty and who are loyal to him. Even if some people mistreat him at the end CJ always gets what he wants, he kills T-Bone Mendez, shows the powerful mafia doesn't scare him and manages to get Sweet released. Despite lacking of motivation he fights again for Grove street, makes the gang great once again and at end it's Tenpenny who runs away from him and once victorious he makes a party with a lot of people he respects and who respect him.

 

To make it short Tommy has a strong personality but much too asocial, the kind of man whose empire would collapse and would get abandoned by everybody once he shows the least sign of weakness whereas CJ is more subtle, patient and relies more on his wit and ability to create alliances than brutal strength.

 

So overall I find Carl Johnson would be a better leader.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Evil empire

[Steezy.]

I'd say the biggest weakness for Tommy's leadership is the fact that he's selfish and doesn't care much for the well-being of his men, like others have stated. It does come back to bite him after all, when Lance turns on him (although Lance is a mental wreck, had Tommy treated him better he'd have never betrayed him)

 

CJ seems to care more about his gang and neighborhood, by using every opportunity to keep crack off the streets from damaging his friends. Him helping Big Bear and getting him to rehab (I think that part was cut, actually) is a good example. The problem with CJ is that he's quick to abandon his gang once things get too rough for him.

 

I think CJ is better as an individual criminal rather than a leader, because once he got exiled from LS he started getting bigger opportunities, such as Mad Doggs, the casino heist, legal businesses, and learning how to fly jets and breaking into area 69. If the entire game took place in LS and was only about GSF, CJ wouldn't be where he is endgame.

[watersgta3]

I think what some of the people commenting here is missing about Tommy is the fact that Lance and Rosenberg brought all their problems on themselves. In Lance's case, Tommy only yelled at him because 1) He butchered Tommy's plan to execute Diaz, and 2) He was sitting on his ass just drinking while he left Tommy to handle the job to intimidate a bar who refused to pay. Really, Tommy has been loyal to Lance throughout the story and hasn't really mistreated Lance (especially when you compare that to Vic's treatment towards Lance in VCS). Lance was just being a paranoid dumbass who was probably high on cocaine (which was shown in VCS). So really, Lance brought his troubles on himself. Rosenberg, on the other hand, was just as much of a useless cokehead, and considering how severe his coke addiction became a good hindrance to Tommy's business attire, you can't really blame him for leaving Ken's worthless ass. I mean at least Tommy didn't leave him out for dead.

 

Now as for CJ, like I said before, he's more of a soldier than a leader. The reason why I can't see him as a good leader is because he doesn't have any experience. Sure he had allies who helped out by his side, but he's pretty inconsistent when it comes to characteristics. I mean a good leader is decisive, and CJ himself lacks that, as evidence in the mission WFIYH when he whines when he doesn't even know what to do with the garage he and the others relocate in. At the same time, he seems confused at what his main goal is. One minute, he tries to get back at his friends for betraying them, the next minute, he forgets all about the hood and decides to reside with a rapper whose career he just destroyed. On top of that, he complains over minor topics (a rocket launcher in the middle of the riot). So really, CJ makes a better soldier than a leader. Even Vic in GTA VCS was a much better leader than CJ (although that ain't saying a lot since Vic's brother is a complete dumbass who was never good for a damn thing.)

[Journey_95]

Tommy, because he didn't run away when sh*t hit the fan, as Steezy said. Throughout the whole of Vice City, everything you do is to get closer to Sonny, and to get more power in the city. Everything relates back to Tommy getting more power for himself and those he trusts.

 

CJ, however, in the first part of SA is all about Grove Street, and he'll do anything for the Grove. A few missions later and he's out in Whetstone whacking a guy because C.R.A.S.H. told him to, Then he's in SF, then Verdant Meadows, then LV. It's like Grove Street doesn't even exist to CJ anymore by this part of the game. Then, Sweet's released from prison, and the only thing Sweet wants to see is Grove Street. CJ doesn't care about the Grove anymore by this point, but because Sweet told him the hood matters, he automatically turns into some ruthless gang banger again.

 

San Andreas, is a great game, but story wise it's very inconsistent.

Very true. CJ's character after LS (where he was quite good, he wanted to prove himself and seemed to care for GS) is a trainwreck.

 

He doesn't have any clear goals, stops caring about the hood and is very inconsistent (one minute Catalina makes him her bitch, the next he is burying a dude alive because he insulted his sister...).

 

The thing is him moving on from the Grove Street is fine. It could have provided for a good confrontation with Sweet. But once again CJ acts is an inconsistent pussy and just shuts up when Sweet bashes him (instead of acting like an adult and saying that the hood is too dangerous & not worth it) & he helps him and acts like he never left.

 

Rockstar wanted to have it all with the character and it doesn't work.

 

So of course Tommy is the better leader and character, no doubt about that. He is written consistently, shows his leadership skills throughout the story & is overall a f*cking badass who takes sh*t from no one.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Journey_95