Transportation/Vehicles - Analysis and Discussion

[zachsterosu]

Analysis and discussion regarding the various modes of transportation we might see in Red Dead Redemption 2, including trains and boats, as well as stagecoaches and other horse-drawn carts.

 

I didn't see a thread regarding this topic already, so I thought I'd start one up.  This is a place to discuss/analyze all things vehicle-related.  Speculation, theories, and observations of historical influence are greatly encouraged(any boat experts?).

 

I myself find railroad history fascinating, so I'm really excited to see what Rockstar will pull from it!  I hope that even after release, this thread can be used to provide some insight into to the real-life inspirations for transportation in the game.

 

-This was a theory I had several months back, but due to updated information it has since been somewhat debunked(the trains in question are actually the same, and the 2nd railroad has a different engine). 

Spoiler

Edit: I have updated information that requires changes to this theory. Ignore everything about the N&W railroad. With additional feedback from users in this thread(regarding my post about district grouping in the next page), I've decided that Roanoke Ridge is NOT West Virginia, but rather a mix of states that border the Mississippi River. Additionally, after brightening some of the photos, it appears as though every locomotive seen so far is actually the same(colors). There still might be two railroads, as that was a very common paint scheme back in those days(the lack of lettering on the tender supports this), so they might just use the same model for both. Another possibility is that it could just be two trains/routes that are both run by the Pacific Union(U.P.). One final note that somewhat backs the former up, is that I believe I have found the reference locomotive used for RDR2. It's 4-6-0 No. 147(The Thatcher Perkins), which is from the Baltimore and Ohio railroad.

 

I'm going to apologize in advance for the long post, because I have a feeling that not too many people will find this meaningful, unless they are into trains like me.

 

Ok, so one thing that struck me as kind of odd was how much color seemed to be added to trains from the first trailer/screenshots to the second one. The other thing that intrigued me was that despite the presence of a "Pacific Union" Railroad Camp on the map, the train cars in one of the screenshots displayed the name of a railroad which I could tell wasn't "Pacific Union". This would be odd, because most railroads at that time would use their own rail cars, displaying the railroad's name.

 

Now historically speaking, that name is clearly a fictionalized version of the Union Pacific Railroad, that stared at the Mississippi river and went west, aka the eastern half of the transcontinental railroad. The railroad also ties in with Red Dead Universe, because it was the railroad who's trains were often robbed by Butch Cassidy's Gang(an inspiration for Dutch's Gang).

 

While looking again at the both maps(RDR, and leaked), I noticed that the new one also has rail wyes(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_(rail)). From a design perspective, these were used to allow two trains to travel on certain sections of track but have different routes, and also for trains to make a loop to head the opposite direction(I.e. the red train at the beginning of the game, which goes around Gaptooth Breach and back to Armadillo, instead of Mexico). Now from the map/railroad layout, it really doesn't look like sections will be blocked off, so trains won't need to do the latter. But, this pretty much means that there will be two or more trains.

 

It might just be the same railroad(Pacific Union) with multiple trains running, but I'm not sure that's the case. One word I think I was able to make on those train cars I mentioned was "Roanoke". If true, this actually ties in really well with another real life railroad - Norfolk and Western(It became what is known today as Norfolk Southern). As N&W, it was formed in 1870, and was a continuation of the largest railroad in the south during the Civil War. It's headquarters were in Roanoke, Virginia. The railway had many operations in hauling coal around mountainous regions(the Appalachians, and one section of the range is called the Cumberland mountains).

 

Now for the pictures. I believe I have found a few minor visual differences that might set the two railroads apart.

 

Picture A - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway)

 

Picture A2 - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway)

 

Picture A3 - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway) Theorized Route(Clockwise)

 

Picture B - "Pacific Union" Railroad(Union Pacific Railroad)

 

Picture B2 - "Pacific Union" Railroad(Union Pacific Railroad) Theorized Route(Counterclockwise)

 

Ok, so the white circles around New Bordeaux and Cornwall are the two sidings, which are indications that both trains must travel through those two sections. And also I think picture A2 also helps show the color difference between the locos, especially with the wheels. Once again, I'm sorry for filling up this thread with my stupidly long theory, but I was thinking some of you might find this interesting...

 

Trains:

 

1. Pacific Union R.R. 4-6-0 #431

Spoiler

Pics:

 

 

 

 

Possible real-life influence:

 

1. Locomotive - Baltimore & Ohio 4-6-0 #147:

 

2. Railroad - Union Pacific(name reversal)

2. Pacific Union R.R. 4-6-0 #376 - (possibly just an updated replacement to 431)

Spoiler

Pics:

 

376 at Annesburg

 

 

 

 

 

Metal-Earth 3D Puzzle of 376:

 

Possible real-life influences:

 

1. Locomotive - Baltimore and Ohio 4-6-0 #147:

 

2. Railroad - Union Pacific(name reversal)

3. Southern and Eastern R.R. 4-4-0 #?

Spoiler

Pics:

 

 

 

 

Possible real-life influences:

 

1. Locomotive - New York Central 4-4-0 #999:

 

2. Railroad - Southern Railway:

(map from 1895)

 

 

 

Map of St. Denis from 1899:

 

Trolleys/Trams:

1. St. Denis

 

Boats:

1. Canoe

2. Riverboats

 

Air-Vehicles:

1. Hot-Air Balloon - (likely in game, may not be operable)

 

Stagecoaches:

1. Davis Overland Despatch Co.

2. Armored - Boles Overland Stagecoach Co.

 

Horse-drawn Vehicles:

1. Covered wagons

2. Open wagons

3. Timber wagons

4. Horse and Buggy

 

Other:

 

Edit: I'm updating this to a cleaner format that will also summarize our findings so far, it's currently a work in progress

Edited September 17, 2018 by zachsterosu

[Hunter S. Compton]

It's not related to trains unfortunately, but I was very suprised to learn, from doing stuff on this forum, how many vehicles there actually were back then. In 1905 Harley Davidson was already manufacturing in America; Triumph, Indian, all these companies were coming up. Cars existed but I doubt they could do go off road in any real way. I doubt that any of these kind of things will make them into the main game, but I think if Online gets prolonged support like GTA has, I think we could start seeing some of these obscure vehicles as free DLC, just to create a greater variety of gameplay.

[zachsterosu]

It's not related to trains unfortunately, but I was very suprised to learn, from doing stuff on this forum, how many vehicles there actually were back then. In 1905 Harley Davidson was already manufacturing in America; Triumph, Indian, all these companies were coming up. Cars existed but I doubt they could do go off road in any real way. I doubt that any of these kind of things will make them into the main game, but I think if Online gets prolonged support like GTA has, I think we could start seeing some of these obscure vehicles as free DLC, just to create a greater variety of gameplay.

This thread isn't supposed to be just about trains, they just happen to be my area of expertise lol. But yeah there's a ton of stuff they can throw into the game. I could see them adding some more modern vehicles like you mentioned for multiplayer. But given the location(and time), I feel like there's more realistic vehicles they'd include, like traction engines(steam tractors) or even hot air balloons. Personally, I think there will be a LOT of various riverboats and other watercraft(to control). I can't imagine they'd only let us use canoes, given how massive some bodies of water within the boundaries are. Edited November 16, 2017 by zachsterosu

[Hunter S. Compton]

What do you think is the largest capacity boat we will see? I think there could be ferrries as a mass transport, similar to trains, but as far as what we control I would think it will be mostly single/double occupancy. A kayak, a cat, a schooner etc. I do think that things like canoes or like a catamaran with room for a few will be in the game for mission dialogue or multiplayer, but I think that will be a bit like stagecoaches in the first game where it's more of an occasional vehicle than a regular choice

[zachsterosu]

New locomotive type, and railroad company: Southern and Eastern

 

 

[zachsterosu]

Streetcars(New Bordeaux only)

 

 

Streetcar from what I assume is the first shot from our City of... "New Bordeaux".

Edited May 2, 2018 by zachsterosu

[StalinBballin]

 

Streetcars(New Bordeaux only)

 

 

Streetcar from what I assume is the first shot from our City of... "New Bordeaux".

It would make sense for this streetcar/trolly to be in the supposed "New Bordeaux" area, but the bottom text could just as easily read Cornwall.

Edited May 2, 2018 by StalinBballin

[SherifWayne]

You guys think we'll see cars in the big city? I think cars and bicycles (slower than horses and essentially useless outside of towns) would be cool but others think its a bad idea.

[xSilencedTNT]

I want to see more of that Armored Vagon From RDR Where you chase Allende and Bill Williamson.

[Cutter De Blanc]

Do you think we will find out what happened to the Wreck of the Serendipity?

[SherifWayne]

Do you think we will find out what happened to the Wreck of the Serendipity?

I hope so. I remember someone saying that steamboats were confirmed by one of the foreign previews.

[BretMaverick777]

 

Arthur rowing a pirogue (Cajun dugout canoe) at Lagras.

 

Also spotted in the same Bayou Nwa postcard:   Cajun keelboat 

 

 

[BretMaverick777]

Closer view of a St Denis streetcar.  Why am I not surprised Cornwall owns these, too? 

 

 

Also confirmed:  you can not only hang off a moving streetcar, but can also use weapons: 

 

[SAS_Intruder]

I hope we get to enjoy riding train with option for different classes. Like first class ticket gets you your own private space, cigars and whiskey plus lunch. Economy class gets you just a regular seat with others and cheapest ticket gets you access to ride with immigrant workers and livestock. 

 

 

[BretMaverick777]

3 hours ago, SAS_Intruder said:

I hope we get to enjoy riding train with option for different classes. Like first class ticket gets you your own private space, cigars and whiskey plus lunch. Economy class gets you just a regular seat with others and cheapest ticket gets you access to ride with immigrant workers and livestock. 

 

 

I just wanna ride with livestock

[SAS_Intruder]

Peasant

[NeptuneLewisGunner]

I  wonder  if  bicycles  are  rideable?

 

[BretMaverick777]

1 hour ago, NeptuneLewisGunner said:

I  wonder  if  bicycles  are  rideable?

 

I don't see why not.

I'm sure there's issues with terrain types, but a bicycle should be rideable at least on city streets.

[Commander S]

...so I was watching Digital Foundry's analysis of the second gameplay trailer, and I didn't get very far before being derailed (heh!) by a decent look at one of the trains - this train, quite probably:

 

 

 

Here's the train from the latest trailer: #249 - same model as 376 and the other one*, but with a more 'gold' trim than 376's more 'bronze' accents, and ornate detailing on the wheels, plough, etc.:

 

 

 

 

 

So that's now what looks like three individual trains based on real-life #147, and at least one based on real-life #999 - wow.

 

*as for #431, I've been back-and-forthing between these two frames of the second trailer, and I'm seeing it more as 451 instead - anyone else?

 

 

 

 

Also, here's a cleaned-up version of that Saint Denis pic, with a clear look at the single-truck electric streetcar - front reads "CORNWALL CITY RAIL", while the side banners read "CITY OF SAINT DENIS" (top), "CORNWALL CITY RAILWAY" (side) and ...yeah, I can't make out the bottom one, sorry!

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Commander S

[Commander S]

...so here's something interesting: I've gone through all the trains, and some of those promo screenshots are clearly from earlier builds of the game, because numbers and colours have swapped around a bit since then!

 

As far as I can tell, the final game has four (identifiable) trains, two classes of locomotive, and three railway companies, each with their own colours:

 

- Southern and Eastern Railway No. 249 (4-6-0) - blue

- Southern and Eastern Railway No. 451 (4-4-0) - blue

- Central Union Railroad No. 155 (4-6-0) - green/red

- The Lannahechee and Midland Rail Co. No. 376 (4-6-0) - red

 

I've also seen what looks like a version of the 4-4-0 in Central Union colours, although I can't make out the number, and I've not seen it in any actual footage... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯