is CJ the worst written gta protag?

[Official General]

CJ has some really funny dialogues throughout the game, but personally am not a fan of a black protagonist in a GTA game.

 

As iconic as the game is, and takes me back about 12 years to my wonderful childhood, I really can not relate to any of the

gangster themes that the whole game of SA was build around. Especially not for the character that is CJ.

 

Nobody forced you to play it.

 

I see you are unashamedly and openly racist (within a gamer's context), you sure have some balls mister. The least that can be said is that you don't hide it (like many do on here).

Edited December 10, 2017 by Official General

[watersgta3]

CJ has some really funny dialogues throughout the game, but personally am not a fan of a black protagonist in a GTA game.

 

As iconic as the game is, and takes me back about 12 years to my wonderful childhood, I really can not relate to any of the

gangster themes that the whole game of SA was build around. Especially not for the character that is CJ.

So you don't like playing as the character just because he's black? Wow! Way to be racist! Look, man. If you don't like playing as CJ, that's fine. But using his race as a reason makes you a flat-out racist! Don't even deny it either. A person's ethnicity should not matter when you play as them in a video game.

 

Also, what are you talking about "gangster themes"? All GTA games are gangster themed. Do you not know what a gangster is?

Edited December 10, 2017 by watersgta3

[Algonquin Assassin]

Example - Killing the stalker in the mission "Hating the Haters" for no justifiable reason.

 

I'd like to know, where the hell did the option to spare, or kill go? I'd have preferred an option to spare, because he wasn't trying to kill Bernie, simply following to threaten him, NOT to kill him.

 

According to his profile, the "gay basher" as the Liberty Tree article likes to call him, the homophobic man has never killed anyone. He was simply having a troubled past, suffering from some kind of disorder because his father never loved him, and such.

 

Homophobe: They're not meant to fight back. It's me. I'm the problem. My daddy never loved me. I'm sorry, I just see him running and I need to grab him and just. sh*t man. I didn't mean nothing by it.

 

Bernie was not his blood relative, but only Niko's friend, and a friend whom he recently met, and yet Niko tries to kill that man, for what? Stalking? Is stalking more of a "serious" crime than talking sh*t about someone's sister that can justify killing a person?

 

IV even had so many fighting moves, and the mechanic of sparing, or killing a character, and yet the mission doesn't even bother to implement those features? Niko could have simply punched him, or used some hand to hand tactics to scare, and warn him about the consequences.

 

This is clear case of bad writing, and waste of potential for in-game mechanics to give players more options.

 

In case of the mission "Deconstruction", CJ simply wanted to teach those guys a lesson, while also getting a new land for his business, as well. Since there's no proof of foreman being dead, it can be seen as an attempt to scare him, giving the message that nobody can speak sh*t about his sister, and get away.

 

First of all Bernie wasn't a friend who Niko had recently met. If you paid attention to the story Bernie was one of the guys in Niko's army unit so they've known eachother for a long time and secondly why are you getting so bent out of shape because Niko killed one person regardless if he's a homophobe or not? Niko kills a lot of people in GTA IV so why this instance bothers you I have no idea. He was probably doing the gay community a favour by getting rid of him. He still physically attacked Bernie. The foreman doesn't attack Kendal. Big difference between the two.

 

Bernie doesn't even object to Niko killing the guy, but I don't remember Kendal saying to CJ "Yo bro. Can you scare this guy by burying him in concrete pls?". So nope. Niko has far more justification. CJ acts like rebellious teenager trying to act like a hard ass.

 

And honestly trying to "scare" someone by burying them alive in concrete seems like a stupid thing to do anyway.and it just shows CJ's lack of maturity to handle the situation better. If you're upset GTA IV doesn't offer other options for this mission than why should San Andreas get a free pass? There should've been an option just to punch the f*ck out of the guy to remove any doubt whether he survived or not.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[watersgta3]

There's no proof of that foreman being dead, or even alive. It isn't seen as an act of murder, and before anyone says, can't trust that source, then one should realise that the list of murders take into account the mission objectives, not random, or spontaneous killings, and the "Deconstruction" mission objectives clearly makes no mention of killing the foreman, at all.

Okay, so, uh, tell me exactly how the foreman would've survived being buried in wet cement while trapped inside the port-a-potty. Clearly, there is no opening through the bottom of the soil, and the cement dried up instantly right after the mission is passed, which means the foreman would have no way to escape, therefore suffocating gradually to death. So if you're saying there's no proof that the foreman suffocated to death, where's the proof that he survived? Also, I find it ironic how you use that link above to prove the foreman isn't dead, because in the most recent topic on this page, this is what you told the user who posted that topic:

 

"I don't trust GTA WIKIA. Any one can edit, and post anything about the game there"

 

So yeah. You just contradicted yourself with that statement there, pal.

[Algonquin Assassin]

So, I can't even express an opinion to show that CJ isn't an exception in this regard?

If people keep bringing this particular act up, then I'm obviously not going to sit back w/o sharing my views on it. I'm not trying to defend it, just explaining the reasons behind the same, while also sharing an example that CJ isn't the only one that people keep targeting him by being selective about this whole incident, as if there are no such instances in any other GTA. It's not me who's getting upset. If I was then I would have countered a lot of nonsense that is being peddled about SA in this forum. But, the moment I speak, some people actually get upset about my views.

 

Well it is a discussion forum. If you don't like having your views challenged go somewhere else.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[watersgta3]

In case of the mission "Deconstruction", CJ simply wanted to teach those guys a lesson, while also getting a new land for his business, as well. Since there's no proof of foreman being dead, it can be seen as an attempt to scare him, giving the message that nobody can speak sh*t about his sister, and get away.

Oh, so apparently, burying a foreman while he's inside the port-a-potty is a good way of "scaring him", huh? So by that logic, if CJ were to tie the foreman up and throw him right into the open ocean, that would be tantamount to "scaring him", huh? If CJ really wanted to scare him, then why not threaten to pour the wet cement on him or hold him over a large batch of wet cement to "teach him a lesson", huh? Also, burying the foreman alive just for saying his sister looks like a hooker is pretty f*cking petty if you ask me. It's not like they were threatening her or anything like that. I mean I could understand if they were sexually harassing her, that would be an excellent reason, but CJ burying him alive just for some petty insult like that goes against his so-called "human" personality, which, in turn, makes his personality inconsistent. And since you're defending CJ for that one moment, please explain your excuse for defending him for killing the manager of a famous rapper all because some wannabe tough guy told him to do so.

Edited December 11, 2017 by watersgta3

[Algonquin Assassin]

 

In case of the mission "Deconstruction", CJ simply wanted to teach those guys a lesson, while also getting a new land for his business, as well. Since there's no proof of foreman being dead, it can be seen as an attempt to scare him, giving the message that nobody can speak sh*t about his sister, and get away.

Oh, so apparently, burying a foreman while he's inside the port-a-potty is a good way of "scaring him", huh? So by that logic, if CJ were to tie the foreman up and throw him right into the open ocean, that would be tantamount to "scaring him", huh? If CJ really wanted to scare him, then why not threaten to pour the wet cement on him or hold him over a large batch of wet cement to "teach him a lesson", huh? Also, burying the foreman alive just for saying his sister looks like a hooker is pretty f*cking petty if you ask me. It's not like they were threatening her or anything like that. I mean I could understand if they were sexually harassing her, that would be an excellent reason, but CJ burying him alive just for some petty insult like that goes against his so-called "human" personality, which, in turn, makes his personality inconsistent. And since you're defending CJ for that one moment, please explain your excuse for defending him for killing the manger of a famous rapper all because some wannabe tough guy told him to do so.

 

 

Also CJ kills that random drug dealer in "Cleaning up the hood" really for no reason when all Ryder needed was to get a look at him so they could find the crack den.

[Journey_95]

 

Example - Killing the stalker in the mission "Hating the Haters" for no justifiable reason.

 

I'd like to know, where the hell did the option to spare, or kill go? I'd have preferred an option to spare, because he wasn't trying to kill Bernie, simply following to threaten him, NOT to kill him.

 

According to his profile, the "gay basher" as the Liberty Tree article likes to call him, the homophobic man has never killed anyone. He was simply having a troubled past, suffering from some kind of disorder because his father never loved him, and such.

 

Homophobe: They're not meant to fight back. It's me. I'm the problem. My daddy never loved me. I'm sorry, I just see him running and I need to grab him and just. sh*t man. I didn't mean nothing by it.

 

Bernie was not his blood relative, but only Niko's friend, and a friend whom he recently met, and yet Niko tries to kill that man, for what? Stalking? Is stalking more of a "serious" crime than talking sh*t about someone's sister that can justify killing a person?

 

IV even had so many fighting moves, and the mechanic of sparing, or killing a character, and yet the mission doesn't even bother to implement those features? Niko could have simply punched him, or used some hand to hand tactics to scare, and warn him about the consequences.

 

This is clear case of bad writing, and waste of potential for in-game mechanics to give players more options.

 

In case of the mission "Deconstruction", CJ simply wanted to teach those guys a lesson, while also getting a new land for his business, as well. Since there's no proof of foreman being dead, it can be seen as an attempt to scare him, giving the message that nobody can speak sh*t about his sister, and get away.

 

First of all Bernie wasn't a friend who Niko had recently met. If you paid attention to the story Bernie was one of the guys in Niko's army unit so they've known eachother for a long time and secondly why are you getting so bent out of shape because Niko killed one person regardless if he's a homophobe or not? Niko kills a lot of people in GTA IV so why this instance bothers you I have no idea. He was probably doing the gay community a favour by getting rid of him. He still physically attacked Bernie. The foreman doesn't attack Kendal. Big difference between the two.

 

Bernie doesn't even object to Niko killing the guy, but I don't remember Kendal saying to CJ "Yo bro. Can you scare this guy by burying him in concrete pls?". So nope. Niko has far more justification. CJ acts like rebellious teenager trying to act like a hard ass.

 

And honestly trying to "scare" someone by burying them alive in concrete seems like a stupid thing to do anyway.and it just shows CJ's lack of maturity to handle the situation better. If you're upset GTA IV doesn't offer other options for this mission then why should San Andreas get a free pass? There should've been an option just to punch the f*ck out of the guy to remove any doubt whether he survived or not.

 

 

Not to mention how CJ kills the guy is ridiculous (burying him alive in concrete, jesus). Dude just insulted his sister, its not like he attacked her like the gay basher did with Bernie. And Niko was portrayed as a ruthless dude throughout the story unlike CJ who switches from bitch to a cold killer fro mission to mission.

 

Also @Am Shaegar you are in denial dude. He definitely died and a rather horrible death too (suffocating to death). You don't get any wanted stars because it was done in secret and hell in general its better not to really use the wanted mechanics as evidence (all over the place). Its not a typical murder so its not counted.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Journey_95

[Algonquin Assassin]

The more I think about it the fact there's no wanted level leans MORE towards that he most definitely died. It's not like authorities were alerted so who the f*ck would've known to rescue him? I'm sorry, but unless the foreman was Houdini and could perform hocus pocus there's only one conclusion.

[Official General]

Another thing I did not like was the way Rockstar made CJ kill that woman in the car along with Madd Dog's rap music promoter by driving it off the pier and into the ocean. I don't get how CJ would coldly commit a crime like that for a punk like OG Loc, especially involving an innocent woman. Very out of place indeed.

 

But I loved the build up to and actual moment when CJ gets revenge on Officer Pulaski, that was one of the my favourite moments of the game, a moment where CJ really shines his gangsta colours !

[Jeansowaty]

 

A perfect example of CJ suddendly acting all gangsta.

[terrytheman947]

As iconic as the game is, and takes me back about 12 years to my wonderful childhood, I really can not relate to any of the

gangster themes that the whole game of SA was build around. Especially not for the character that is CJ.

I'm sorry, but don't ALL the GTA games have "gangster themes"?

[Algonquin Assassin]

Another thing I did not like was the way Rockstar made CJ kill that woman in the car along with Madd Dog's rap music promoter by driving it off the pier and into the ocean. I don't get how CJ would coldly commit a crime like that for a punk like OG Loc, especially involving an innocent woman. Very out of place indeed.

 

I really love how Am Shaegar has no answer for this. Maybe Niko comes across as a bit hot headed at times, but hey atleast he doesn't kill a completely innocent woman in such a horrible way. If CJ used his head he could've killed the promoter in another way instead of taking the lives of innocent people.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Algonquin Assassin]

I have already registered my dislike here, including the death in 555 We Tip mission, whether its about a woman, manager, or anyone. Unjustified killing without any strong basis is always bad in my books. Someone really needs to stop indulging in bad habit of often derailing threads with personal attacks, and false accusations.

 

What dislike? You only talk about the manager/promoter. Not his girlfriend. You're only saying that now because we've exposed CJ's inconsistencies. If we compare this to the mission where Niko kills the homophobic man than it's actually worse, much worse because it involves a completely innocent party. The very least the homophobic man posed a threat to Bernie which is why Niko took him out.

 

And if anyone's guilty of making false accusations it's you. Maybe you should've thought of that the day you accused me of editing/removing your posts without proof trying to spread a false message along with other bullsh*t. I don't forget too easily pal. You should've never crossed my path.

 

Edit: Nice job on your disrespect list btw lol. Your true colours keep coming out day by day Osho.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Algonquin Assassin]

If you want to have a fighting match then take it to the PM. I don't understand what's your problem.

 

No. I've already done that and you didn't have the balls to respond. As for using OG's post to make an underhanded attack. Yeah. That's just typical of you.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Electrochoc]

I just started San Andreas. I can say he is not bad as Michael. I don't know if he changes in story yet.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Electrochoc

[Algonquin Assassin]

Just to add to the mission "Management Issues" - The woman in that mission didn't die. Nope. She didn't get killed, at all.

 

I like how you say this with absolute certainty, but concede that there's no proof that she was killed. What proof do you have that she definitely survived with out a doubt?

 

The fact of the matter is the end goal of this mission is to drive off the pier killing the people inside. Now lets remember this woman was only a very minor character we knew nothing about so details like whether she knew how to swim or not were obviously not gong to be shared.

 

It's not unreasonable to think she could've hit her head on impact knocking her unconscious drowning her in the process. Regardless the intent behind this mission can't be over looked. CJ still put an innocent woman in danger because he didn't think it through. Just like the foreman and his so called attempt to "scare" him.

[Algonquin Assassin]

Well what kind of proof do you want exactly? A corpse accompanied by a coroner's report?

I also think the screenshot doesn't prove anything. It just shows the car in the ocean with its door open. There's no evidence of anyone swimming away. There's no evidence of anyone attempting to rescue them.

On one hand you say she definitely didn't die, but on the other you say its all based on assumption. So which is it then? You can't have it both ways.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Algonquin Assassin]

She definitely didn't die because the game doesn't count it as a murder committed by CJ. How many times do I need to repeat?

The door remaining unlocked opens up a strong possibility of her bailing out, and for any one to spot her and rescue. Simple to understand here.

Since the game considers manager as dead, it's obvious that he couldn't be rescued, irrespective of whether either of them knew swimming, or not.

Please provide some interesting, convincing argument to the discussion, instead of taking an objection to my admission that she indeed didn't die.

I'm not straightaway dismissing her fate, but offering a scenario that could exist based on certain observations of the mission, and the main reasons which has lead me to believe that she (and foreman) could be alive.

I am only placing my theory, and interested in the same from the other side, instead of going round in circles discussing about things that don't matter.

 

I'll even go one better and show the whole mission instead of a static screenshot leaving out other details you appear to not even be considering.

 

 

 

Pay close attention to where the occupants are sitting. Clearly their doors are locked because that's why the guy's screaming at CJ to unlock it. The only reason the driver's door is open is because of CJ obviously bailing before hand.

 

Now answer this if the woman could escape so freely then why would she climb up over the passenger seat from the rear just to get out of the driver side? Her side of the car stays closed so to me that suggests she couldn't get out. If she was the passenger in the front seat I could understand her chances of survival being much higher, but she wasn't. That is a fact you can't refute.

 

Also you say the game doesn't count her murder, but I put that down to the fact she's a non-essential character much like countless, nameless characters who get killed and the games don't acknowledge them as the primary targets.

 

Look on CJ's Wiki page. It even says both of them drowned...http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Carl_Johnson

 

 

 

OG Loc wanted to sabotage Madd Dogg's career and at the same time because Crawford refused to be affiliated as OG Loc's manager and blackballed him in the music business. Killed after CJ kidnapped Crawford and his girlfriend after an awarding ceremony and drove the car off a pier, causing them to drown.

[Niobium]

trevor is still exponentially worse than CJ

 

at least CJ actually HAS loyalty to his homies, unlike trevor

Edited December 16, 2017 by Niobium

[Algonquin Assassin]

 

 

No. It is possible, and I was waiting for this to come up.

Here's a demonstration

. Strange thing they thought of escaping out of the front side, when according to you, if she had been in the front seat only then her chances of survival would have been much higher?

 

 

 

I never said it wasn't possible. Read my post properly.

 

 

 

 

I don't trust the that site, how many times do i need to repeat? There is a reason why this topic exists in the Series section. On the other hand, the Grandtheftwiki page makes no such claims.

 

I really couldn't care less what you trust or don't. I'll post whatever information I like I deem is necessary to my point thank you.

 

 

In the end, the crux of the issue revolves around whether or not, she knew swimming?

 

I'm assuming that she knew, but more importantly, CJ's personality, and the way his character was written, and developed, strongly suggests that CJ would no way condone such an act, esp., when he has set a precedent by rescuing a girl in the game. Heck, CJ didn't even want to put a bullet on Catalina, despite how she treated him.

 

 

So now you're back to assuming?

 

Lets just get it straight. At the very least CJ shows no regard for this woman's safety or well being. I'm not saying he was out to get her intently because he was clearly targeting the manager/promoter, but she was still in the wrong place at the wrong time. However he shows no signs he remotely gives a sh*t if she dies or not.

 

Look at the whole sequence. She's screaming at the top of her lungs and he makes no acknowledgement. Not even the slightest hesitance that it might not be a good idea to dump the car in the ocean.

 

 

If she (and even the foreman) is such a non-essential character then why are people making a big issue of it?

Let's only focus on the characters that are actually killed by CJ.

As per

If it's fine to complain incessantly about a non-essential character, then it's also fine to assume that CJ didn't kill her for reasons already explained.

 

 

You're the one making a big issue about it.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Algonquin Assassin]

 

 

It's not about me trusting, or not. It is open to changes by anyone, which is why I directed you to the topic. But, if you want to rely on sources that are not credible then you are just making yourself look ignorant by quoting someone else's opinion as some "credible source".

 

 

That's pretty ironic since Grandtheftwiki can be edited by anyone also.

 

Anyway I've already said enough to support my side of the debate so unless you want to keep going at it we may just have to agree to disagree.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Algonquin Assassin

[Algonquin Assassin]

No I did. It can still be edited though regardless if it's harder.

[Algonquin Assassin]

To be honest I’ve always found these wiki sites (doesn’t matter which one) fairly accurate anyway.

[Official General]

@ Am Shaegar

One can safely assume that the woman in Alan Crawford’s car which CJ drove off the pier and into the sea had drowned and died. There is nothing to suggest that she survived. If she did, we would have seen her bail out of the car before it goes into the ocean, but we did not, so therefore she must have still been in the car.

Your only valid point is that she may have survived by swimming. But what is important is the fact that CJ did not care whether an innocent woman may have died because of his actions, and that is quite deplorable.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Official General

[Loslos]

I never liked cj just little things that bothered me about him like the celebration of him changing an outfit not shaking woozys hand and helping random people in missions. I honestly I was fuming with the ballad more they made me laugh with the shot they used to say. Ffascan go suck my mfin dick