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babanigGARdo

is CJ the worst written gta protag?

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babanigGARdo

this guy is so inconsistent

 

one moment hes this bitch ass nigga who lets everyone walk over him and another moment hes this psychotic killer who would bury you in cement for just whistling at his slut of a sister

 

i dont see why ppl say hes a better person than tommy or claude etc. not only is he a beta hes a bigger asshole too

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Algonquin Assassin

Yes. There's not a single thing I like about the guy honestly. I wish Cesar was the protagonist because atleast hes more interesting and likeable.

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Official General

No not at all. It's clear that you didn't study the development of his character properly. It's not always about being tough as nails, cold, ruthless, and near-invincible when it comes to GTA protagonists, despite the brutal nature of their criminal careers. Sometimes a good dose of real human life elements are what is needed to develop a character, and that does not always involve being the ultimate hard man.

CJ's was portrayal was supposed to be one of a vulnerable and emotionally fragile young guy that struggles to eventually overcome all the obstacles he faces in his cold, harsh world of gang culture, violent ghetto life, police brutality and corruption to name, his brother and friends deride him as a coward, not to mention he's also dealing with the fact that his mother has been killed by rival gang members. His head is not in the right place, and he's at a very low, weak moment in life. So him acting like a lil' b*tch or softie at times was supposed to be the idea. As the game progresses, we see CJ's transition from young upstart street thug with very little heart and lacking smarts, to hardened, experienced original gangsta with more shrewdness, more brains to become owner of a vast, wealthy criminal empire - he was that classical underdog that was up against all odds in a long, hard struggle/fight, but came out a winner, on top. I thought that was a good idea and it was well written out, save a few caveats with the story (all that silly way-over-the-top Mike Toreno stuff and green goo etc). It would have been a bit boring and unoriginal if CJ was always a ruthless tough guy from the start that knew it all, and bulldozed his way to major success in the San Andreas criminal underworld - we saw all of that with Tommy Vercetti in Vice City, there was no reason to see it all again with CJ.

However I didn't like it when CJ was acting like a lil' b*tch with Catalina though, that part really annoyed me, and also the part when he was pleading with the cops in the boot of the police car. All of that whiny b*tch stuff in a very few small sections of the story did leave a bad stain on CJ's image, but for me it was so minimal I could overlook it, no one is perfect after all.

CJ was not the best GTA protagonist, but he certainly was by no means the worst - that honour goes to Trevor in my view.

@ Algonquin

Cesar being a protagonist would not have suitable for the core theme of SA, as much as you liked him. The black LA gang scene was much more well-known and infamous than Latino gangs at the time period that SA was based on (1990s). A Cesar-like Chicano character would suited V best, because of the current spotlight on vicious Mexican drug cartels.

Edited by Official General

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ClaudeIzABadAzz

Nah, CJ's cool. If you wanna be technical, Claude is the worst protagonist of all, because he doesn't talk, and has no emotion. His facial expression never changes throughout the entirety of the game! He is just a hired gun for high ranking criminal figures, even turning on his employers. Some people might hate that, but if you ask me, that's what makes Claude the ruthless motherf*cker that he is.

 

@Official General Gangs like the Crips and Bloods are the most notable gangs of the 90s, but there was a lot of tension between the brown and black people at this time, and many Hispanic gangs were at constant war with the Bloods and Crips. So Cesar might have fit in just fine.

Edited by ClaudeIzABadAzz

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watersgta3

I wouldn't call CJ the worst protagonist, but as much as I like him, I have to admit that you do have a point. I can kind of understand why people don't like him. CJ's personality is pretty inconsistent and a lot of his motives are questionable to say the least. It's pretty hard to root for someone who complains about having it rough when he has no qualms of murdering and ruins the lives of others. It puts him in Wangst territory, and a lot of his fans keep making him like he's this deep guy when in reality, he's not that much different from the other protagonists.

Edited by watersgta3

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Official General

@Official General Gangs like the Crips and Bloods are the most notable gangs of the 90s, but there was a lot of tension between the brown and black people at this time, and many Hispanic gangs were at constant war with the Bloods and Crips. So Cesar might have fit in just fine.

 

I don't think you understood my point.

 

Black (African-American) gangs were well-known not just for actual criminal element of LA gang scene, but whole culture itself and by-products of it that influenced popular American culture in the 1990s - the gangsta rap music genre, the dances (C-Walk) the fashion, the slang, the swag, etc - this was what Rockstar were aiming for when making SA. The whole black LA gang movement and G-funk subculture fascinated the series creators, and they wanted a protagonist to reflect that, so naturally he had to be black and from the hood - I read it in an EDGE gaming interview with Dan Houser about the history of GTA series, Houser said it himself.

 

Now the spotlight in LA is on Mexican drug cartels and LA-based Chicano gangs that are linked to them, so V would have better suited a protagonist like Cesar.

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Evil empire

CJ's personality was created to make a change with the psychopathic killing-machines you play in the previous episodes.

 

Like Officer General wrote CJ is a weak low-life rascal who progressively becomes a ruthless respected and feared gangster. Even if the story wasn't written the best way it's globally well made and CJ is way more human than Tommy or Claude and I personally appreciate him more than Claude and Tommy for this reason.

Edited by Evil empire

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ClaudeIzABadAzz

 

@Official General Gangs like the Crips and Bloods are the most notable gangs of the 90s, but there was a lot of tension between the brown and black people at this time, and many Hispanic gangs were at constant war with the Bloods and Crips. So Cesar might have fit in just fine.

 

Black (African-American) gangs were well-known not just for actual criminal element of LA gang scene, but whole culture itself and by-products of it that influenced popular American culture in the 1990s - the gangsta rap music genre, the dances (C-Walk) the fashion, the slang, the swag, etc - this was what Rockstar were aiming for when making SA. The whole black LA gang movement and G-funk subculture fascinated the series creators, and they wanted a protagonist to reflect that, so naturally he had to be black and from the hood - I read it in an EDGE gaming interview with Dan Houser about the history of GTA series, Houser said it himself.

Ahhhh you're f*cking right! I get ya know.

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p∞ntang

this guy is so inconsistent

 

one moment hes this bitch ass nigga who lets everyone walk over him and another moment hes this psychotic killer who would bury you in cement for just whistling at his slut of a sister

 

i dont see why ppl say hes a better person than tommy or claude etc. not only is he a beta hes a bigger asshole too

Yeah, I get that too, but people are inconsistent. I've only completed 3 and SA now, but compared to Claude he's more interesting (at least at first). If they ruined CJ, it was his "relationship" with Catalina. I didn't like CRASH missions, but I understood why CJ complied, but worst of all after The Green Sabre was Catalina making a total bitchass out of CJ. Should have been CJ who turned her from a petty thief into a jack-boot, psychotic bitch. I just don't see CJ at any point after losing his moms, and maybe his brother, taking sh*t from anyone. They did f*ck it up even including her; character call backs are fine, but not when they literally dominate the main character.

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KingD19

This is something I just thought about because I just noticed gta sa is my favorite gta to play but CJ is not my favorite character Niko is. But cj in the story mode just seem like he wanted to just sellout on Grove Street and never step foot back in Los Santos like how he ran away from L.S to Live in liberty city and like how he rather stayed in mansions in vinewood and hotels in L.V and San fierro and when sweet got out of jail cj was bragging saying stuff like "we got a mansion I can buy you some new clothes" CJ seem like he only cares about the hood because he was pressured if sweet stayed in jail CJ wouldn't even stepped foot back in Los Santos CJ barely gives a f*ck about Los Santos or Grove Street in reality but he doesn't want to seem like the bad guy so he just does stuff he actually don't wanna do and rather be doing something else it's crazy because I like Carl more in free roam more then I like him in missions because in free roam cj is what ever you make him like in my game I roleplay the game in my free roam cj is a og thats with all the street sh*t and can be on that business side when he wants not the "I'm only doing this because I wanna make everybody happy and rather leave Los Santos " How they make him in story cj basically was gonna do what Franklin did before Franklin did it

Edited by KingD19

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Imperator233

Of course it's not. CJ is the most "alive" character.

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ViceBoy69

lol @ most alive character.

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Am Shaegar

That's true! CJ is indeed the most alive, versatile, and more complex character of the series, and it's well written, well delivered, as well, which adds greatly to the overall experience. From the RPG elements, to customizing your character, the way CJ would evolve and differ over time as you progress, including the clothes you wear, going to the gym and watching CJ puke if you ate too much, making him fat, improving his skills, and even sex appeal. Rockstar makes an effort to make the character feel more alive even outside the cinematic moments by making the world around CJ enaging, so you're constantly feel immersed throughout the story, and even after you complete it.

 

Something I feel greatly lacking in the later titles. The protagonist seem to be bad ass in cutscenes, but once you have the control over them outside the cutscenes, they feel like robot, and not as engaging as CJ. Its like the world feels as alien to the protagonist actions. Some ghost town than a properly realized world.

 

Though GTA V does improve a lot on what was lacking in it's predecessor to make the experience as interesting, and closer to what CJ has to offer.

 

Here's a nice example:

GTA San Andreas - Talking with Pedestrians: Those who have connection issues, low on data, or can't watch the video, here's the analysis of the idea behind this video-

Taking a deeper analysis into GTA San Andreas details and doing something many people haven't tried - talking with pedestrians.
The speaking with pedestrians feature is seriously interesting, at the beginning of the game, practically nobody likes or respects CJ, but the more you advance in the storyline - the more people will start to like Carl, eventually, when the storyline is completed - everyone will respect and like CJ.
Not only the pedestrians, but CJ's attitude also changes through out the game, at first, he has this bored out tone, later he has this ghetto tone and by the end of the game - a rich man's attitude.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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lil weasel

is CJ the worst written gta protag.

I believe he is not.

The character is enough to get the game going (it is a game, not reality).

All of the Missions are effective, if some are inane, they are entertaining for a Player.

The is not a Novel. So depth of character is not necessary. It is a series of linked reasons, for the story) to accomplish various maneuvers with the keyboard/gamepad.

 

The characters, are all for the most part stereotypes, created and exploited for entertainment purposes.

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Algonquin Assassin

lol @ most alive character.

 

We must be living in a world of low standards if CJ's considered to be the most "alive".

Edited by Algonquin Assassin

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Official General

is CJ the worst written gta protag.

I believe he is not.

The character is enough to get the game going (it is a game, not reality).

All of the Missions are effective, if some are inane, they are entertaining for a Player.

The is not a Novel. So depth of character is not necessary. It is a series of linked reasons, for the story) to accomplish various maneuvers with the keyboard/gamepad.

 

The characters, are all for the most part stereotypes, created and exploited for entertainment purposes.

 

Exactly :^:

 

And what people need to remember, is that SA belongs to the III-era and it was created at a time when video game developers generally did not seek to create protagonists with in-depth, highly developed personalities and identities. Gaming technology was not yet advanced to the point that where it made sense to add all that extra stuff to a game's protagonist, that did not happen until well into the HD era. I can understand the HD era requiring more deeper characters with the advent of advanced gaming technology, it goes hand in hand, but the III-era GTA games like VC and SA simply had no essential need for it to provide a great gaming experience - what they already had was more than enough for their time.

 

Tommy Vercetti practically had no distinct personality at all, the only thing that really stood out was his sheer ruthlessness and willingness to kill to achieve his objectives - but I still found him to be a very memorable character. Simple, but effective enough to make sense and fit in very well with the story. That was all GTA needed back then.

 

lol @ most alive character.

 

We must be living in a world of low standards if CJ's considered to be the most "alive".

 

 

On technical level he probably is, with regard to the RPG elements. No other GTA game can compare on that level.

Edited by Official General

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Algonquin Assassin

 

 

On technical level he probably is, with regard to the RPG elements. No other GTA game can compare on that level.

 

 

RPG elements don't define his character though. It's not like the RPG elements shape and mould his personality only the aesthetics. This is why I'm glad R* stopped trying to turn the series into a glorified Elder Scrolls game when they switched to the HD era.

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Official General

 

On technical level he probably is, with regard to the RPG elements. No other GTA game can compare on that level.

 

RPG elements don't define his character though. It's not like the RPG elements shape and mould his personality only the aesthetics. This is why I'm glad R* stopped trying to turn the series into a glorified Elder Scrolls game when they switched to the HD era.

I didn’t say it did, I was simply agreeing with the guy is who stated that CJ felt more ‘alive’ than any other GTA character with regards to gameplay purely on a technical level, because it’s clear to see that he is. On a personality level, he’s clearly not comparable to the HD protagonists like Niko - but like I said, it was not neccessary or essential for III-era protagonists to have highly developed and in-depth personalities and identities, so in my view comparing CJ to guys like Niko, Johnny, Michael etc, is pointless.

 

I don’t agree with the Elder Scrolls comparison though. The RPG elements of SA were not even remotely sophisticated or deep enough to even warrant such a comparison. For most part, it was very simplistic stuff that turned out to be a lot of fun which fitted perfectly into the structure of the game. The best part is that it was mostly optional, so it’s not like it was forced on the player.

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Algonquin Assassin

 

 

On technical level he probably is, with regard to the RPG elements. No other GTA game can compare on that level.

RPG elements don't define his character though. It's not like the RPG elements shape and mould his personality only the aesthetics. This is why I'm glad R* stopped trying to turn the series into a glorified Elder Scrolls game when they switched to the HD era.

I didn’t say it did, I was simply agreeing with the guy is who stated that CJ felt more ‘alive’ than any other GTA character with regards to gameplay purely on a technical level, because it’s clear to see that he is. On a personality level, he’s clearly not comparable to the HD protagonists like Niko - but like I said, it was not neccessary or essential for III-era protagonists to have highly developed and in-depth personalities and identities, so in my view comparing CJ to guys like Niko, Johnny, Michael etc, is pointless.

 

I don’t agree with the Elder Scrolls comparison though. The RPG elements of SA were not even remotely sophisticated or deep enough to even warrant such a comparison. For most part, it was very simplistic stuff that turned out to be a lot of fun which fitted perfectly into the structure of the game. The best part is that it was mostly optional, so it’s not like it was forced on the player.

 

 

That's just the thing though. The RPG elements are incredibly simplistic and don't do anything to change his character whatsoever. It's only physical attributes. In a real RPG (like an Elder Scrolls game) these elements would be frowned upon, but honestly that's always been one of my biggest criticisms of the game. It tries to be the jack of all trades and doesn't master anything particularly well. Just bits and bits chopped up for something marginally serviceable.

 

I just don't agree that it makes him feel more "alive". Maybe you and other find these elements fun and that's fine, but CJ's too much of a poor excuse of a character to be "alive" in my book.

Edited by Algonquin Assassin

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Official General

@ Algonquin

 

I get that you don’t like CJ and SA that much in general, but I think you’re in denial if you really believe that SA’s attempts to be the jack of all trades in GTAa largely failed - it has the best map, so much fun features and huge replayablity value and it is still probably the most popular GTA in existence - even now, 14 years later, many GTA gamers are still playing it and talking about it. And it’s RPG elements are one of the most memorable and popular features of the game, many people still yearn to see it again in future GTAs - it surely could not have been as bad as you say it is, history and figures tell the story.

 

It’s cool not to be on bandwagon and dislike SA, but not in the name downplaying it’s achievements when it clearly deserves the respect and success it has earned.

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Algonquin Assassin

@ Algonquin

I get that you don’t like CJ and SA that much in general, but I think you’re in denial if you really believe that SA’s attempts to be the jack of all trades in GTAa largely failed - it has the best map, so much fun features and huge replayablity value and it is still probably the most popular GTA in existence - even now, 14 years later, many GTA gamers are still playing it and talking about it. And it’s RPG elements are one of the most memorable and popular features of the game, many people still yearn to see it again in future GTAs - it surely could not have been as bad as you say it is, history and figures tell the story.

It’s cool not to be on bandwagon and dislike SA, but not in the name downplaying it’s achievements when it clearly deserves the respect and success it has earned.

 

Please don’t put words into my mouth. Just because I don’t drink its cool aid doesn’t mean I think it’s a bad game. I don’t care how popular it is because that really has nothing to do with what I was saying,

 

GTA V’s an incredibly popular game too, but it doesn’t stop you, I and others from from criticising it right? Come on dude. For how you’ve known me for I would think you’d be more comfortable with accepting the notion that the game isn’t the holy grail to me like it is to others.

 

And I never said it failed. Just it tries to be the jack the all trades not doing anything particularly well which quite frankly is my own personal experience that I'm not forcing you to accept.

Edited by Algonquin Assassin

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Official General

 

@ Algonquin

I get that you don’t like CJ and SA that much in general, but I think you’re in denial if you really believe that SA’s attempts to be the jack of all trades in GTAa largely failed - it has the best map, so much fun features and huge replayablity value and it is still probably the most popular GTA in existence - even now, 14 years later, many GTA gamers are still playing it and talking about it. And it’s RPG elements are one of the most memorable and popular features of the game, many people still yearn to see it again in future GTAs - it surely could not have been as bad as you say it is, history and figures tell the story.

It’s cool not to be on bandwagon and dislike SA, but not in the name downplaying it’s achievements when it clearly deserves the respect and success it has earned.

 

Please don’t put words into my mouth. Just because I don’t drink its cool aid doesn’t mean I think it’s a bad game. I don’t care how popular it is because that really has nothing to do with what I was saying,

 

GTA V’s an incredibly popular game too, but it doesn’t stop you, I and others from from criticising it right? Come on dude. For how you’ve known me for I would think you’d be more comfortable with accepting the notion that the game isn’t the holy grail to me like it is to others.

 

And I never said it failed. Just it tries to be the jack the all trades not doing anything particularly well which quite frankly is my own personal experience that I'm not forcing you to accept.

 

 

* Bro, come on, when have I ever forced you to like SA ? Never. I've always known it's not really one of your favourite GTAs, but I could not care less, that is your opinion, there is no history of me trying to change that, so I cannot see why you're even mentioning that ?

 

* I did not put words in your mouth and I never said you said it was a bad game, not once did I say that. I said you don't like it that much - well at least in comparison the other main GTAs, which is very evident from your posts about SA. Again, I don't care if you do either, I brought it up in passing to make a point.

 

* Your stated that SA tried to be the jack of all trades and it failed miserably in doing so, especially with the RPG elements, which you heavily criticize. So I made a reference to how hugely popular so many of SA's features were with the GTA fan base to highlight my opinion that it certainly was not such a miserable failure on such a large scale like you made it out to be. Yes it's your opinion, I get it, but to me, it just seemed like you were trying to downplay what legendary status, great accolade and success that SA's deservedly has achieved - now if I'm wrong, then I stand corrected, but I'm only going by what I can see before me.

 

* I have no issue with you criticizing SA - my only issue was that you appeared to be trying to downplay its legendary status, and yes while it is your opinion, I respect that - I did not agree with it, so I stated my response accordingly. That's all it is, there is no need to seemingly get touchy about it.

Edited by Official General

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Journey_95

Yeah CJ is an inconsistent bitch, nothing new here...he was still fine in the LS part but his character just becomes ridiculous after that. One mission he is doing top secret CIA missions, the next he is Tenpenny's bitch. Or how he suddenly buries someone alive because he insulted his sister..wtf?

 

And the problem is that he never really develops. At the end he still accepts Sweet's sh*t and has no real opinion of his own. He clearly moved on from Grove Street and the typical hood stuff (which would be good development)yet is back there once his brother says it.

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Official General

Or how he suddenly buries someone alive because he insulted his sister..wtf?

 

That part was extremely silly indeed. I don't know what on earth Rockstar were thinking when they wrote that.

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Algonquin Assassin

 

Or how he suddenly buries someone alive because he insulted his sister..wtf?

 

That part was extremely silly indeed. I don't know what on earth Rockstar were thinking when they wrote that.

 

 

I've always thought it was to show his more "human" side except flipping your sh*t over something so insignificant seems a bit excessive.

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ViceBoy69

Off Topic slightly but that also applies to Tony in LCS gets all mad and flips out because his mum calls him names and chops a guy up, i dont get Rockstars thinking sometimes

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Official General

Off Topic slightly but that also applies to Tony in LCS gets all mad and flips out because his mum calls him names and chops a guy up, i dont get Rockstars thinking sometimes

 

I've never played LCS (or VCS either) so it's interesting to see that there too. For real, Rockstar's writing is very questionable at times.

 

@ Algonquin

 

I actually skipped that mission my current playthrough with mods.

Edited by Official General

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IndogamersPro

Carl personality is close to what we are.

Inconsistent, At some point, human can be inconsistent.

Carl had the highest amount of RPG elements compared to other protagonists.

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Am Shaegar

There's no proof of that foreman being dead, or even alive. It isn't seen as an act of murder, and before anyone says, can't trust that source, then one should realise that the list of murders take into account the mission objectives, not random, or spontaneous killings, and the "Deconstruction" mission objectives clearly makes no mention of killing the foreman, at all.

 

As IndogamersPro rightly pointed out that Carl's personality is close to what we are. I thought Carl's reaction was exactly what I'd have done same, if someone tried to say sh*t about my sister. Not killing anyone, but to teach them a good lesson by destroying their property, which is exactly what CJ did. In fact, CJ can have 0 kills in this mission by following this minimal kill walkthrough. That's another great example of SA's freedom to play the mission the way you want.

 

But, I don't think it's a case of bad writing here. I can understand why would Rockstar try to make CJ drive a cement truck, and force him to bury a foreman. It could be an attempt to introduce the players with the dozer, and cement truck, by writing a mission that makes use of these vehicles, just like the monster truck in Toreno's mission to introduce us with the truck, and how it drives.

 

Since, ViceBoy69 has shared an example, w/o being selective about such particular acts, I'd also like to share another example which actually fits the "losing your cool over something so insignificant seems a bit excessive" comment, and even lacks any valid justification, either from any introduction of feature standpoint, or any story-related plot relevance.

 

Example - Killing the stalker in the mission "Hating the Haters" for no justifiable reason.

 

I'd like to know, where the hell did the option to spare, or kill go? I'd have preferred an option to spare, because he wasn't trying to kill Bernie, simply following to threaten him, NOT to kill him.

 

According to his profile, the "gay basher" as the Liberty Tree article likes to call him, the homophobic man has never killed anyone. He was simply having a troubled past, suffering from some kind of disorder because his father never loved him, and such.

 

Homophobe: They're not meant to fight back. It's me. I'm the problem. My daddy never loved me. I'm sorry, I just see him running and I need to grab him and just. sh*t man. I didn't mean nothing by it.

 

Bernie was not his blood relative, but only Niko's friend, and a friend whom he recently met, and yet Niko tries to kill that man, for what? Stalking? Is stalking more of a "serious" crime than talking sh*t about someone's sister that can justify killing a person?

 

IV even had so many fighting moves, and the mechanic of sparing, or killing a character, and yet the mission doesn't even bother to implement those features? Niko could have simply punched him, or used some hand to hand tactics to scare, and warn him about the consequences.

 

This is clear case of bad writing, and waste of potential for in-game mechanics to give players more options.

 

In case of the mission "Deconstruction", CJ simply wanted to teach those guys a lesson, while also getting a new land for his business, as well. Since there's no proof of foreman being dead, it can be seen as an attempt to scare him, giving the message that nobody can speak sh*t about his sister, and get away.

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ult1matum

Nah man, Claude is the worst cuz he doesn't even has a personality, he's dead inside.

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