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Legion of Hell

Things GTA IV/EFLC did better than GTA San Andreas

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El Penguin Bobo
Posted (edited)

^ Yeah, I can't stand CJ. People only give him praise because he can wear a variety of clothes, (even though they look tacky as sh*t but I guess it has something to do with 90s theme), get haircuts, fly a jetpack and all, but he's really just not that interesting or likeable at all.

 

Not to mention that his character is as inconsistent as deer diarrhea. The one minute he's rebellious, and the other minute, he's a pussy. He has some good qualities of course, but he's still my least favorite GTA protagonist.

Edited by El Penguin Bobo
Sweet, new page.

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Duhillestpunk
33 minutes ago, El Penguin Bobo said:

^ Yeah, I can't stand CJ. People only give him praise because he can wear a variety of clothes, (even though they look tacky as sh*t but I guess it has something to do with 90s theme), get haircuts, fly a jetpack and all, but he's really just not that interesting or likeable at all.

 

Not to mention that his character is as inconsistent as deer diarrhea. The one minute he's rebellious, and the other minute, he's a pussy. He has some good qualities of course, but he's still my least favorite GTA protagonist.

Yeah he let people push him around. Like Toreno was a down right bully to him and CJ still goes along with his crap. He should’ve beat his arse up

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Vega LVI
3 hours ago, Duhillestpunk said:

Yeah he let people push him around. Like Toreno was a down right bully to him and CJ still goes along with his crap. He should’ve beat his arse up

CJ feared Toreno was going to stick Sweet in a cell with Horse Cock Harry.

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SonOfLiberty
6 hours ago, Eugene H. Krabs said:

IV easily has a much more likable protagonist. I've been replaying SA on my PS2 recently, and I can't stand CJ at all. In fact, I'm honestly starting to wonder if he's worse than Trevor, because at least there's a few good things about him (voice acting, clothing options, and how he's loyal to Michael). I can't say the same for CJ

Preach to the converted brother. Even I think Trevor isn't that bad anymore. That's gotta say something.😉

 

And I agree that CJ mostly gets praised for his customisation options. I cringe whenever someone tries to make it seem like he's some incredibly deep and well written character because I just don't see it. Even when I tried to let him grow on me it doesn't take very long until he does something that pisses me off and reminds me why I've always disliked him.

 

Trevor might not be to everyones' liking, but atleast Steve Ogg's on point. Young Maylay just sounds like he's stoned. Anyway CJ's not close to being in Niko's league. There's a reason Niko gets praise (even from non-GTA IV fans) as the best protagonist in the series and rightfully so. 

 

Just as side note another thing that damages CJ is I'm not a fan of how some people still play the race card to deflect genuine criticisms away. It's a really weak and lazy counter argument.

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Legion of Hell
6 hours ago, El Penguin Bobo said:

Not to mention that his character is as inconsistent as deer diarrhea. The one minute he's rebellious, and the other minute, he's a pussy

Or how he just let himself get raped by Catalina without even trying to resist

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El Penguin Bobo
2 minutes ago, Legion of Hell said:

Or how he just let himself get raped by Catalina without even trying to resist

That's the worst of them all! He's probably the only GTA protagonist to get raped like that.

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SonOfLiberty
11 minutes ago, Legion of Hell said:

Or how he just let himself get raped by Catalina without even trying to resist

I've seen suggestions before that he done this on purpose to play her because he's like really "intelligent". I have to wonder if this is the case then where did "intelligent" CJ go when he decided to teach those construction workers a lesson for cat calling Kendl for dressing up like a slut? He could've used keen negotiation skills to get the piece of land instead of burying the poor bastard foreman in concrete.

 

The best way to describe CJ is he has more mood swings than a teenage girl. 

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Legion of Hell
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

I've seen suggestions before that he done this on purpose to play her because he's like really "intelligent". I have to wonder if this is the case then where did "intelligent" CJ go when he decided to teach those construction workers a lesson for cat calling Kendl for dressing up like a slut? He could've used keen negotiation skills to get the piece of land instead of burying the poor bastard foreman in concrete.

 

The best way to describe CJ is he has more mood swings than a teenage girl. 

It's either that, or they though CJ is kind-hearted person who felt remorse for killing which is a laughable excuse because he did things far worse than Trevor. Atleast every other protagonist acknowledge that they are a bad person and a psychopath

Edited by Legion of Hell

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Eugene H. Krabs

CJ also goes from spraypainting, to stealing a million-dollar jetpack from a military base. What the hell is that?

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El Penguin Bobo
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Eugene H. Krabs said:

CJ also goes from spraypainting, to stealing a million-dollar jetpack from a military base. What the hell is that?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by El Penguin Bobo

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)

I kind of don't mind the unrealistic stuff about CJ and the SA story since I don't think it's really supposed to be realistic, I enjoy it for the over the top craziness that it is. CJ doesn't annoy me as a protagonist, he's cool enough, but to me he's just very basic so I have a neutral reaction to him. Niko is on an astronomically higher level of character writing.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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Eugene H. Krabs

IV easily has better clothes. They're all simple and none of them have really bothered me. On the other hand, try going through the clothing items in SA with a straight face. I mean, can you really see a gangbanger having pink hair and wearing Groucho glasses and underwear with hearts on them?

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SonOfLiberty
On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 4:34 PM, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I kind of don't mind the unrealistic stuff about CJ and the SA story since I don't think it's really supposed to be realistic, I enjoy it for the over the top craziness that it is. CJ doesn't annoy me as a protagonist, he's cool enough, but to me he's just very basic so I have a neutral reaction to him. Niko is on an astronomically higher level of character writing.

I don't mind the unrealistic stuff on its own, but the problem is for me atleast the story tries way too damn hard to be taken seriously (dealing with CJ's mother's death, getting the "homies" back together etc). It feels like it's trying to replicate early 90s hood dramas like Boyz In The Hood, Menace II Society etc, but then as soon as Los Santos is left in the rear view mirror the silliness slowly starts to ramp up.

 

The crazy thing is with a game like Saints Row IV for example despite how bat sh*t insane the premise is I can appreciate that it's overtly aware of how ridiculously stupid it is. None of the 3D era stories are supposed to be realistic, but San Andreas feels like the odd one out. It's neither consistently unrealistic nor is it consistently realistic either. It's worse than GTA V (Which even though the story's flawed it has three protagonists to distribute the different story bits). CJ's just a crappy vessel and "jack of all trades" candidate to convey what it's trying to achieve.

 

Either way I'm glad R* got it together for GTA IV and delivered us what is the best story in any GTA game without breaking sweat thinking about it.

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

I don't mind the unrealistic stuff on its own, but the problem is for me atleast the story tries way too damn hard to be taken seriously (dealing with CJ's mother's death, getting the "homies" back together etc). It feels like it's trying to replicate early 90s hood dramas like Boyz In The Hood, Menace II Society etc, but then as soon as Los Santos is left in the rear view mirror the silliness slowly starts to ramp up.

 

The crazy thing is with a game like Saints Row IV for example despite how bat sh*t insane the premise is I can appreciate that it's overtly aware of how ridiculously stupid it is. None of the 3D era stories are supposed to be realistic, but San Andreas feels like the odd one out. It's neither consistently unrealistic nor is it consistently realistic either. It's worse than GTA V (Which even though the story's flawed it has three protagonists to distribute the different story bits). CJ's just a crappy vessel and "jack of all trades" candidate to convey what it's trying to achieve.

 

Either way I'm glad R* got it together for GTA IV and delivered us what is the best story in any GTA game without breaking sweat thinking about it.

I kind of don't mind that either :lol:. I think it is trying to do that but it's more of a parody, it's some cliched tropes and melodrama inspired by those films and again not supposed to be taken super seriously. I know some people do take it seriously and think it means the characters and story are deep etc but I don't haha. It is a bit of a silly premise to have the classic hood story + a crazy and fantastical epic journey through an entire state but I think with the light hearted humour that goes throughout it works somehow, as long as you take it for what it is and don't expect realism. I would say the crazier/sillier stuff is more out of place in V since it does try to be a truly realistic/gritty/serious drama some of the time and that's usually when it's at it's best, the very silly stuff is excess to requirements whereas it fits in better in the crazy world of SA.

 

But yeah regardless IV is on a whole other level, I'm also very glad they went that way

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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SonOfLiberty
3 hours ago, billiejoearmstrong8 said:

I kind of don't mind that either :lol:. I think it is trying to do that but it's more of a parody, it's some cliched tropes and melodrama inspired by those films and again not supposed to be taken super seriously. I know some people do take it seriously and think it means the characters and story are deep etc but I don't haha. It is a bit of a silly premise to have the classic hood story + a crazy and fantastical epic journey through an entire state but I think with the light hearted humour that goes throughout it works somehow, as long as you take it for what it is and don't expect realism. I would say the crazier/sillier stuff is more out of place in V since it does try to be a truly realistic/gritty/serious drama some of the time and that's usually when it's at it's best, the very silly stuff is excess to requirements whereas it fits in better in the crazy world of SA.

 

But yeah regardless IV is on a whole other level, I'm also very glad they went that way

Ok fair enough.👍

 

11 hours ago, Eugene H. Krabs said:

IV easily has better clothes. They're all simple and none of them have really bothered me. On the other hand, try going through the clothing items in SA with a straight face. I mean, can you really see a gangbanger having pink hair and wearing Groucho glasses and underwear with hearts on them?

Even some of the normal clothes look stupid. I guess it's matter of taste, but the only clothing I liked besides the default outfit was the green combat jacket. Everything else made CJ look like a douchebag (never mind the "gimmick" items). I like that GTA IV's clothing despite not being as much by numbers compliments Niko's character and nothing makes me think "Ewww that looks ugly". The only thing I wish R* did was to include another clothing store besides the second Perseus. I've never understood that.

 

They could've included Didler Sachs or something and I'm fairly positive it was cut in the BETA stages.

 

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ChengizVlad09

The entire narrative is based around super serious tone, so that alone can make it appear much better. I have no problem admitting it's even better in 'technical' sense, meaning it's clearly visible how much attention was put in that particular aspect, how we supposed to feel for the main character and clearly see his struggles and progress and or simply how good it has been written.

 

'Beautiful' graphics isn't exactly equal to 'Advanced', technically modern graphics, so yeah, GTA IV has better graphics - more advanced - but I find SA graphics more suiting for my personal taste, considering we are talking about PS2 mixture of visuals.

 

Gameplay wise, I find over exaggerated impacts that weapons have on the world probably the best in the franchise, sounds, visual animations, etc are quite pleasing to the eye. There's definitely some weight and significance behind it, not like 'paintball' physics of V. Cars are horrible on the other hand, ofc, the only good thing is hitting pedestrians. For the RanderWare game, SA does a pretty damn good job in the same department - weapons and everything tied to it.

 

Honestly though, chameleon nature of SA ( just like any 3DU game) and the way its entire narrative is being told, switching from serious to goofy, being serious and goofy at the same time, being one or the other unexpectedly, or even better, depending how you personally want to experience it, is what ultimately makes it so good and better than simply serious all the time. SA didn't need all that superior writing to be that good, where the eternity of IV completely revolves around its serious nature and 'heavy' writing, character progression, deeper feelings or long dialogues waiting on some form of satirical or comic relief. In conclusion, IV is trying so hard to be deep and serious and despite its literary success of an epic scale, making it so good in that department, it falls short in the exact proportion to be that good as a game in almost anything besides its story line missions. 

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ChengizVlad09 said:

 

 

Honestly though, chameleon nature of SA ( just like any 3DU game) and the way its entire narrative is being told, switching from serious to goofy, being serious and goofy at the same time, being one or the other unexpectedly, or even better, depending how you personally want to experience it, is what ultimately makes it so good and better than simply serious all the time. SA didn't need all that superior writing to be that good, where the eternity of IV completely revolves around its serious nature and 'heavy' writing, character progression, deeper feelings or long dialogues waiting on some form of satirical or comic relief. In conclusion, IV is trying so hard to be deep and serious and despite its literary success of an epic scale, making it so good in that department, it falls short in the exact proportion to be that good as a game in almost anything besides its story line missions. 

I agree that it has a much more serious overall tone than San Andreas of course but IV also has humour in virtually every scene. Granted some of the humour is more dark/dry but there's even quite a lot of goofy humour in there too on the radio etc and through some of the most amusing characters of the series (eg Roman, Brucie, Packie, Manny, Real Badman, Vlad). Satire everywhere you look, humorous sarcasm from Niko and comedy runs through the game, just less of it is as goofy as SA's comedy. The story itself is indeed relentlessly heavy and you don't get much relief from that (as the story itself is low on lightheartedness and humour in the game isn't used for that purpose so much), but you do still get a lot of humour along with it. IV makes me sadder than any other GTA but it also makes me laugh more than any other, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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ChengizVlad09

@billiejoearmstrong8

 

As someone who always craves for a deeper satirical point of view or simply good and quality comedy stuff - just as much as anybody else, I assume - I was far away from trying to imply that the IV lacks anything in that department, could be that I just worded it badly. 

 

What I see as a clear discrepancy of any HDU game, not just IV, is a serious narrative tone and character progression - with much of comic and satirical relief, sure - on one side, and almost clear and so deliberately implemented childish gameplay and overall design, on the other side that tends to break the immersion so often and almost with purpose.

 

It is simply unbelievable that technical solutions of earlier games in regards to gameplay, such as SA, despite their evident inconsistencies in finding adequate or smart solutions for building that particular aspect, still manage to provoke and induce more adrenaline and more quality action that anything that tends to be so serious and mature like IV. 

 

For example, shootouts against the AI police, FBI, or army forces, are clearly based on so simple and almost primitive programing, yet fighting them off is a thing of pure action in which you'll definitely end up riddled like it was nothing, with enemies spawning like crazy. In its entirety of goofiness and weaker technical solutions, SA brings so much more 'mature' and exciting action that purposefuly wants to demean you with everything it has got. 

 

That's the turn I don't like in HDU, they unmistakably sacrifised the gameplay and design part and made it easy and childish alike so that the younger ones could enjoy it, while being extra serious with the storytelling, something for the more mature ones. That's one of the most frustrating and stupid compromises that hurts the gameplay and franchise so much.

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SonOfLiberty

 Despite the fact Niko can't buy safehouses the safehouses he does acquire "feel" like his own. They also feel better to be in too being more detailed and more interactive i.e having a tv watch or another place to use the internet and in PBX's loft the pool table is another place to bring friends.

 

The only safehouse I liked in San Andreas was the Johnson house as it felt like the most detailed, but all the run of the mill safehouses were sh*t and I never felt they were my own despite that I paid for them. Strange I know, but that's what it felt like.

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El Penguin Bobo
9 minutes ago, SonOfLiberty said:

 Despite the fact Niko can't buy safehouses the safehouses he does acquire "feel" like his own. They also feel better to be in too being more detailed and more interactive i.e having a tv watch or another place to use the internet and in PBX's loft the pool table is another place to bring friends.

 

The only safehouse I liked in San Andreas was the Johnson house as it felt like the most detailed, but all the run of the mill safehouses were sh*t and I never felt they were my own despite that I paid for them. Strange I know, but that's what it felt like.

I honestly wouldn't mind purchasable safehouses in VI or whatever the next GTA will be called if they weren't the same copy-pasted interiors like in SA.

 

Out of all the GTA games, I think either VCS, IV, or V had the best safehouses, even if there weren't multiple houses you can buy, at least they weren't the same interiors slapped onto another house, haha.

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SonOfLiberty
1 minute ago, El Penguin Bobo said:

I honestly wouldn't mind purchasable safehouses in VI or whatever the next GTA will be called if they weren't the same copy-pasted interiors like in SA.

 

Out of all the GTA games, I think either VCS, IV, or V had the best safehouses, even if there weren't multiple houses you can buy, at least they weren't the same interiors slapped onto another house, haha.

It was funny buying one of those apartments in Las Venturas and realising it had the same interior as one of the regular houses I bought in Los Santos.😛

 

I would throw Vice City in there too for the Ocean View Hotel and Vercetti Estate.👍

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El Penguin Bobo
Just now, SonOfLiberty said:

I would throw Vice City in there too for the Ocean View Hotel and Vercetti Estate

Oh hell yeah, those safehouses are unique as well.

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Kierolack666
On 7/3/2019 at 1:26 PM, Eugene H. Krabs said:

IV easily has a much more likable protagonist. I've been replaying SA on my PS2 recently, and I can't stand CJ at all. In fact, I'm honestly starting to wonder if he's worse than Trevor, because at least there's a few good things about him (voice acting, clothing options, and how he's loyal to Michael). I can't say the same for CJ

I think Niko is the best protagonist of the whole series.

On 7/4/2019 at 8:54 PM, Eugene H. Krabs said:

IV easily has better clothes. They're all simple and none of them have really bothered me. On the other hand, try going through the clothing items in SA with a straight face. I mean, can you really see a gangbanger having pink hair and wearing Groucho glasses and underwear with hearts on them?

I like the Claude outfit that you get after killing Playboy X.

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SonOfLiberty
On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:54 PM, Kierolack666 said:

I think Niko is the best protagonist of the whole series.

 

Not just the series, but Niko's one of the best protagonists in gaming, period. Can't say the same for CJ. 

 

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:54 PM, Kierolack666 said:

I like the Claude outfit that you get after killing Playboy X.

Me too. I thought that was a cool nostalgic throwback and I like wearing it when I'm stealing cars and stuff for Stevie because it makes me think of when I first played GTA III all those years ago stealing cars with Claude.

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Kierolack666
1 hour ago, SonOfLiberty said:

 

Not just the series, but Niko's one of the best protagonists in gaming, period. Can't say the same for CJ. 

 

Me too. I thought that was a cool nostalgic throwback and I like wearing it when I'm stealing cars and stuff for Stevie because it makes me think of when I first played GTA III all those years ago stealing cars with Claude.

Me too and dang, I sill have to steal cars for Stevie...

 

Oh well, at least im not stealing cars for Stevie Nicks (Who I recall has a song that plays on Liberty Rock Radio).

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Night walker

Small detail but i like it when you can ride your motorbike inside the house & restaurant.I remember doing that for many hours in Vercetti Estate i can even fight with police inside the interior.I like SA in fact i finished it 100% completion but could they put people inside Mad Dog crib? It feels creepy to walk inside huge interior alone.

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JayKed20

James Woods isn't in it.

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Legion of Hell

Can @SonOfLiberty or any other mods add EFLC to the title because I want to add EFLC stuffs😛

 

TLAD focuses on the bikers theme more than SA with gangsters theme ever was

 

TBOGT parachute physics>>>>SA (Buggy) parachute physics

Edited by Legion of Hell

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