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Journey_95

What was so bad about Ray Boccino?

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HOW'S ANNIE?
On 7/25/2017 at 6:07 PM, SonOfLiberty said:

Yeah. It sucks that "Pest Control" wasn't a choice like it was going to be. I think it would've been the biggest dillema out of all of them as neither Ray or Phil done anything to Niko to screw him over.

Gonna quote you from two years ago. But I believe even if we'd gotten the choice between killing Ray or Phil most people would have still gone for Ray anyway. We only see this all in hindsight.

 

To stray a bit off topic, it would be like the Francis vs Derrick decision. In the end Francis never really did anything wrong to Niko either. Everybody makes it out as if he was dangling Niko on a string. However it was always a case of 'you watch my back I watch yours' type deal. After all if he was blackmailing Niko, he'd have never paid him. In the end though most people felt okay with killing him, because doing so spared the life of a friendly character. I can't help think the same would have been said for Ray in a similar scenario.

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TheSantader25
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, HOW'S ANNIE? said:

Gonna quote you from two years ago. But I believe even if we'd gotten the choice between killing Ray or Phil most people would have still gone for Ray anyway. We only see this all in hindsight.

 

To stray a bit off topic, it would be like the Francis vs Derrick decision. In the end Francis never really did anything wrong to Niko either. Everybody makes it out as if he was dangling Niko on a string. However it was always a case of 'you watch my back I watch yours' type deal. After all if he was blackmailing Niko, he'd have never paid him. In the end though most people felt okay with killing him, because doing so spared the life of a friendly character. I can't help think the same would have been said for Ray in a similar scenario.

Well I always prefer killing Derrick because of how much of a worthless rat/junky he is. If there was a choice between Ray/Phil It would be a very difficult one for me but I'd still kill Phil because I felt like Ray was more of a use to Niko instead of just paying him and I really liked his personality. But maybe I'm just the odd one out. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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billiejoearmstrong8
Posted (edited)

 I think if there was the choice they would've added in more to make you possibly distrust Phil. There's already an implication that he's having an affair with Pegorino's wife left in so could've started there.

 

I think they just should've added in some more little things to make Ray seem untrustworthy. Personally I already found him quite unlikeable but there should've been more reason given for Jimmy to distrust him. And if they'd kept in the choice of who to kill they could've just added in more little things about Phil too so you'd have to weigh up who was more likely to be the disloyal one. 

 

Maybe the whole idea is that neither of them is really disloyal and it's just in Jimmy's paranoid mind - hence removing the choice and Niko just having to act on Jimmy's gut feeling. Maybe it's really supposed to be that Ray isn't a rat but he just rubs people the wrong way and it's made people wrongly believe he is. I feel like they could've made that more explicit though. Definitely a part of the story that could've been improved upon.

Edited by billiejoearmstrong8

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Zello
Posted (edited)

Instead of making him a rat they should have had Jimmy Pegorino getting worried that Ray was getting too ambitious and was going to make a power play to get control of the family. The rat stuff felt kinda ehh.

 

As much as I love Phil Bell I'd probably keep Ray alive just to see what would have happened. Maybe if he lived Johnny and The Lost would have taken him out later anyway. Would he have remained loyal to Jimmy Pegorino?

 

Ray reminds me of Ralph from the Sopranos a bit. He earns a lot of money for his crew and comes across as unlikeable.  

Edited by Zello

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TheSantader25

Other than all, Ray messed up the Lost MC to some extent. That's another reason to why I would keep him alive. 

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Domand
Posted (edited)

I never found him to be directly bad but feel like they were aiming for him to be an intimidating/annoying/slimy guy. But to be fair there never seemed anything concrete about him being totally a bad guy and and it appears Johnny and The Lost screwed him over first. I think he was kind of an annoying but loyal guy, however Jimmy Pegorinos paranoia took hold and made him have Ray killed anyway. 

Edited by Domand

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mcaufey

I guess you are missing one important point. Ray hired those bodyguards right after he got suspicious of Jimmy's behavior as Jimmy tells Niko about it on a phone call. Jimmy was an old, yet smart and experienced, man and he just wanted to remain the rich boss forever. Unlike Ray, Phil was satisfied with his position though. 

 

Jimmy was also suspicious of Mr. Gravelli. I dunno the why. They were long-time friends. 

 

Jimmy's character seemed inconsistent to me until I played GTA IV for a second time. Anthony, on the other hand, was truly loyal until Jimmy's attitude towards him changed and that was probably because of Niko's skills. So, Emotional Anthony prefered to spy on Jimmy. Makes real sense to me. 

 

Pay more attention to details. Each character's personality can be simply figured out by noticeable signs, even by their favorite radio station! 

 

It's really funny to compare GTA IV's Jimmy to GTA V's Jimmy after all. 

 

The story of GTA IV is by far more challenging than GTA V. 

 

One last funny thing, I think Packie's ma and Jimmy could be a great couple since they were both holy. 

 

 

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santosvagos

I think Ray want to take over Pegorino family and make it to a real Italian mafia family since Pegorino ain't real  family to me because Phil is holding a high position instead of being associate .

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LCLegend
On 7/23/2017 at 12:14 PM, Mr_Rager said:

Have to admit that every car ride with Phil is elder God tier /comfy/

when Niko was walking and talking with Phil? that was comfy

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Jeansowaty
Posted (edited)

So I decided to collect some thoughts also by taking all your comments into account. I'll try now putting it all into a logical perspective.

 

Ray is a capo, he has his own goons, yet Pegorino does not trust him. Phil is a paranoid associate, yet apparently higher in the food chain than Ray, Pegorino trusts him a lot more and doesn't even mind him hanging out with his wife. Okay, so let's put it all together. Ray is trying to sleaze his way up the ladder to reach Phil's position. We're all only looking at two words - capo and associate, first one is a top guy and second is a low life. However, couldn't it be that Pegorino has made Ray, a made man, a capo, mostly because of his fully Italian ancestry, yet Bell is serving the role of the underboss and is actually in charge of more departments than Ray who seems to be the higher ranking guy on paper? Mind you though, Phil hates his Irish ancestry and keeps overusing Italian slangwords, even moreso than Ray or Pegorino do. The Peg is troubled because Phil IS high ranking in the mob, because he serves pretty much as his closest advisor and potential runner-up if Pegorino would abdicate/die. Or maybe the Commission mistakenly thinks Phil is a made man and don't believe what the Peg says?

 

Either way, so we have two rather unhappy guys, Ray is high ranking on paper, yet he doesn't get enough appreciation for his work, it doesn't matter that he's the capo because Pegorino still mistrusts him and prefers to get Phil involved in more delicate matters. Phil on the other hand is trying to come across as a legit Italian and potentially encourages Pegorino to have him made, since he is pretty much his second-in-command, yet his Irish ancestry forbids them from doing so. Besides, he's bringing a lot of bad attention on the family. Both of them have a rather strong motive to rat on Pegorino, yet who is the real rat? We don't know.

 

I personally have a theory that Phil Bell is the rat. Ray is too much of an asskisser, he's literally trying to get into Pegorino's bed just to be ahead of Bell and be the "good boy". Phil on the other hand, is very paranoid and scared all the time that there are bugs or helicopters everywhere. If he didn't have anything to hide he wouldn't need to be in such fear. On top of that it is hinted that he's having an affair with Angie Pegorino and if you remember the news report from the mission "Flatline" that you can find on Liberty Tree, it says "A source close to the mob tells us that the witness's death is a big blow to the state's case against Pegorino, "Anthony was Jimmy P's personal bodyguard. If he took to the stand there wasn't no chance of Jimmy seeing daylight ever again. Now, they're screwed."" Notice how Phil uses single letters for surnames, he often calls the Peg Jimmy P., his voice message says "This is Phil B., leave a message." and instead of "heroin" he just uses "H". I'm sure it's part of his paranoia and that he doesn't want to reveal any names, though the fact that Peg's name is put like that and no one else except for Anthony calls him this way makes me think of it. Last and least, no matter what ending you take Phil leaves Liberty City to retire from the life of crime. He probably took the option to take part in the deal to secure his future and upon hearing the Peg is flipped in the Revenge ending, he also runs away, fearing his ratting out will come to daylight if he stays around for longer.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about this recently and wanted it to seem logical. Thoughts?

Edited by Jeansowaty

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Domand

^ Very interesting theory! 

Considering there was once an option to choose to kill either Phil or Ray during development I believe, it definitely could be possible Phil was ratting on him. Maybe out of paranoia and to save himself when things were getting bad? And he was pretty quick to ditch him at the end after Deal or Revenge is taken. 

Ray always seemed like  he was a faithful man to Pegorino, despite coming across as a sleazy dude. 

 

But then again Phil seemed faithful too. 

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ThatKyloRenGuy
6 hours ago, Jeansowaty said:

So I decided to collect some thoughts also by taking all your comments into account. I'll try now putting it all into a logical perspective.

 

Ray is a capo, he has his own goons, yet Pegorino does not trust him. Phil is a paranoid associate, yet apparently higher in the food chain than Ray, Pegorino trusts him a lot more and doesn't even mind him hanging out with his wife. Okay, so let's put it all together. Ray is trying to sleaze his way up the ladder to reach Phil's position. We're all only looking at two words - capo and associate, first one is a top guy and second is a low life. However, couldn't it be that Pegorino has made Ray, a made man, a capo, mostly because of his fully Italian ancestry, yet Bell is serving the role of the underboss and is actually in charge of more departments than Ray who seems to be the higher ranking guy on paper? Mind you though, Phil hates his Irish ancestry and keeps overusing Italian slangwords, even moreso than Ray or Pegorino do. The Peg is troubled because Phil IS high ranking in the mob, because he serves pretty much as his closest advisor and potential runner-up if Pegorino would abdicate/die. Or maybe the Commission mistakenly thinks Phil is a made man and don't believe what the Peg says?

 

Either way, so we have two rather unhappy guys, Ray is high ranking on paper, yet he doesn't get enough appreciation for his work, it doesn't matter that he's the capo because Pegorino still mistrusts him and prefers to get Phil involved in more delicate matters. Phil on the other hand is trying to come across as a legit Italian and potentially encourages Pegorino to have him made, since he is pretty much his second-in-command, yet his Irish ancestry forbids them from doing so. Besides, he's bringing a lot of bad attention on the family. Both of them have a rather strong motive to rat on Pegorino, yet who is the real rat? We don't know.

 

I personally have a theory that Phil Bell is the rat. Ray is too much of an asskisser, he's literally trying to get into Pegorino's bed just to be ahead of Bell and be the "good boy". Phil on the other hand, is very paranoid and scared all the time that there are bugs or helicopters everywhere. If he didn't have anything to hide he wouldn't need to be in such fear. On top of that it is hinted that he's having an affair with Angie Pegorino and if you remember the news report from the mission "Flatline" that you can find on Liberty Tree, it says "A source close to the mob tells us that the witness's death is a big blow to the state's case against Pegorino, "Anthony was Jimmy P's personal bodyguard. If he took to the stand there wasn't no chance of Jimmy seeing daylight ever again. Now, they're screwed."" Notice how Phil uses single letters for surnames, he often calls the Peg Jimmy P., his voice message says "This is Phil B., leave a message." and instead of "heroin" he just uses "H". I'm sure it's part of his paranoia and that he doesn't want to reveal any names, though the fact that Peg's name is put like that and no one else except for Anthony calls him this way makes me think of it. Last and least, no matter what ending you take Phil leaves Liberty City to retire from the life of crime. He probably took the option to take part in the deal to secure his future and upon hearing the Peg is flipped in the Revenge ending, he also runs away, fearing his ratting out will come to daylight if he stays around for longer.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about this recently and wanted it to seem logical. Thoughts?

I agree with the theory through and through, :)

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billiejoearmstrong8

I'm totally on board with this theory! I never paid that close attention to Phil, makes a lot of sense. And now I wish more than ever that the choice was left in lol

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Auditore
On 7/23/2017 at 2:53 PM, Journey_95 said:

Everyone acts like he is a snake and a dick but I really don't remember anything bad he did. He actually seemed to like Ashley, helped Niko find Bernie, gave Johnny an option until the latter f*cked him over etc.

 

I think he was the best character from the Pergorino family, Phil was kind of bland and Jimmy was a joke.

Phil only funny cutscene is when he makes the weird italian sounds.

 

"You know, the guy  with the beepty boope *whistles* "

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Copcaller
Posted (edited)

Yeah I had a hard time believing ray was the mole sure he's sleazy but why work your way up just to snitch and like everyone else said he upheld his deals it was Johnny who unwisely screwed him over. Sadly for him Phil is just the more savvy individual screwed his bosses wife snitched on the family and is now in witness protection with angie most likely

 

Another thing is niko complains that ray isn't paying him well or at all for his tasks even though one mission payed 9800 from what I remember. Maybe its a gameplay and story segregation kind of thing

Edited by Copcaller

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tranceking26
Posted (edited)

To me he was just another mission giver, it was obvious once the diamonds f*ck up happened some bad sh*t would go down for him.

 

I do feel like another choose to kill mission may have been a good idea. At least then there's another excuse to replay the story one day.

Edited by tranceking26

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