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RedDagger

Why microtransactions are bad for consumers AKA free content can be sh*t

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D9fred95

Just thought I'd toss this in here.

 

 

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trip

I really really really want to use my cranky old man argument about game cost not scaling like other entertainment has through the years.

 

We pay almost the same $$ amount for a game today as we did nearly 40 years ago yet we get WAY more game for our $$$.

 

I'm not against companies trying to find ways "here and there" to increase their profits... because if you ask me we've kind of been ripping them off on their margins for years. 

 

Now don't get all yell'y at me.  I'm not condoning microtransactions or per purchase loot boxes.  I'm just saying we have to deal with things like this as the game industry tries to deal with the crankiest group of consumers while still being able to make enough profit so as to continue to be encouraged to provide us with the great games we love.

 

 

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RedDagger

I don't really have a problem with microtransactions, it's specific implementations and the attitudes surrounding them that are more the problem. There's plenty of games with acceptable methods that makes the more exploitative implementations awful; for example, the original creation of this thread was as a half-rant against people who insisted they didn't affect the games they were a part of, which is why I'm not particularly fond of the letting-us-have-great-games argument.   

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D9fred95
Quote

even though Red Dead Redemption 2 and Red Dead Online share the same gameplay mechanics and geography, we see them essentially as separate products that will grow and evolve independently of each other.

Yup, single player is f*cked.

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Edward Nashton

I am so glad I didn’t pre-order RDR2 and I don’t plan on picking it up all at this point. People kept saying there’s no way R* would try doing what they did with gtao for a western, there’s no way. Well, there you have it. Enjoy watching all the cool content go exclusively to online, and I’m not just talking about guns and gear - no, stuff that should’ve been in singleplayer like side quests/activities will be in there as well. You’ll get your story and some token side activities and that’s it, once you’re done with them and you want more, you either go to online and spend some money or f*ck off. That was GTA V’s business model and it made billions, there is no reason to believe they’ll change now.

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luisniko

See. I just got an email from Rockstar Propaganda about Read Dead Online, which already sent to Trash folder by now. I don't remember what's in the IGN article, but basically they're saying another vague stuff that makes me understand if people confused about it. That's what they've been doing anyway.

 

"Red Dead Online is an evolution of the classic multiplayer experience in the original Red Dead Redemption, blending narrative with competitive and cooperative gameplay in fun new ways. Using the gameplay of the upcoming Red Dead Redemption 2 as a foundation, Red Dead Online will be ready to be explored alone or with friends, and will also feature constant updates and adjustments to grow and evolve this experience for all players.

 

Red Dead Online is planned for launch in November 2018, initially as a public beta, with more news to come soon. As with most online experiences of this size and scale, there will inevitably be some turbulence at launch. We look forward to working with our amazing and dedicated community to share ideas, help us fix teething problems and work with us to develop Red Dead Online into something really fun and innovative."

 

In short, Red Dead Online has a narrative structure that will be played in co-op and pvp, basically like the early GTA Online. And it will get updates and will grow - again, like GTA Online.

 

In another words, it could have been written like "Following the success of GTA Online, we are aiming to direct Red Dead Online with the footsteps of its Online older cousin that will feature co-op and pvp as well as making it an evolving game through updates with the single player gameplay as the foundation."

 

The email closed with what dorks are happily translating to: "RDO is completely free to play because it comes from free update!!!!11"

"Access to Red Dead Online is free to anyone with a copy of Red Dead Redemption 2 on either PlayStation 4 or Xbox One."

 

 

----------------

Now for the real question, what will be the name of Cash Card in Red Dead Online?

Edited by luisniko

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TheSantader25
4 hours ago, Edward Nashton said:

I am so glad I didn’t pre-order RDR2 and I don’t plan on picking it up all at this point. People kept saying there’s no way R* would try doing what they did with gtao for a western, there’s no way. Well, there you have it. Enjoy watching all the cool content go exclusively to online, and I’m not just talking about guns and gear - no, stuff that should’ve been in singleplayer like side quests/activities will be in there as well. You’ll get your story and some token side activities and that’s it, once you’re done with them and you want more, you either go to online and spend some money or f*ck off. That was GTA V’s business model and it made billions, there is no reason to believe they’ll change now.

After the previews today I'm not sure how anyone can hold on to playing this game. You guys basically make things hard for yourself. Play the incredible SP and ignore the online stuff. The SP alone is definitely worth 60 if it's what they say it is. I won't preorder though. I have never ever pre ordered a game ever. God Of War didn't even have an online mode but it was incredible. Spider-Man as well. 

Edited by TheSantader25

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Richard Power Colt

While post-release support is probably gonna be focused on RDR Online, I do still have faith that we'll get a great singleplayer experience at launch. Everything we've seen from the trailers so far looks pretty great and there's still lots of demand for R* singleplayer games so I doubt they're gonna half-ass it.

 

The online mode might be pretty fun initially too, if they wanna make a good first impression. Then the updates will make it more and more grindey over time once people are hooked.

Edited by Richard Power Colt

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Edward Nashton

@TheSantader25

It seems like whenever I start to question myself on whether I'm being too hard on RDR 2 and R*/T2 in general, some news comes out that further reinforces my skeptical outlook of the game and my opinion that R* and T2 are a bunch of dickbags. Last week it was T2 begging Belgium to loosen their gambling laws and Zelnick bragging about how people will keep coming crawling back to spend money on RDO - This week R* confirmed Read Dead Online will be modeled after GTAO, no surprise to me but it further reminds me of what is to come of this game.

 

With us knowing what came before and the confirmation that RDO is going to be modeled after GTAO, asking us to ignore the online stuff is like asking us to ignore a missing tire from a Lamborghini that a shady car salesmen is trying to sell to us. "Hey, it's a LAMBO, bro. You can't say no to that. Besides, you can use the fourth tire if you take it to the racetrack... but you can only use it there, and you have to pay an annual fee to have access to the racetrack... and it's usually crowded with obnoxious assholes... and there might be other fees further down the line."  Previews and trailers don't do much for me nowadays, even for games I'm actually really interested in - to me, GTA V looked like pure magic before it came out, now (to me) it represents a time when R* took a nosedive in quality. While it is true that you never really know what you'll get, in this particular case, R* and T2 are telegraphing hard that they're going to do the very thing that pissed me off in V with RDR 2, so I'll remain a skeptical cynic until the game is out, but just the bullsh*t from Zelnick alone is enough to put RDR 2 at the very bottom of my list. 

 

***

And as if things couldn't look grimmer, while writing this post, I found this article. 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/red-dead-redemption-2s-online-mode-will-be-a-huge-/1100-6461948/#ftag=GSS-16-10aac1h

 

"Red Dead Redemption 2's multiplayer mode, Red Dead Online, is beginning to come into focus. It appears to be borrowing from the highly successful model that Rockstar employed with Grand Theft Auto V's online mode, GTA, in that fans can expect an expansive, open-ended playground filled with activities. Red Dead Online will also get regular updates to help players coming back--and presumably spending money. GTA Online has been a revenue juggernaut for parent publisher Take-Two, and while there are no solid details yet on how Red Dead Online will monetize players, you can absolutely expect microtransactions to factor in."

 

While they don't expect it to sell as well as GTA V, they do expect it to be a cash cow.

 

"...Still, Red Dead Online is expected to be a big-time money-maker. Pachter said said he believes the game can bring in around $10 per user each year. If the game sells 25 million copies, it could have 10-15 million monthly active users for Red Dead Online, which, assuming $10 per user, would come out to as much as $150 million per year in recurring revenue."

""I think RDR Online will certainly be successful," Pachter said. "Revenues from GTA Online peaked at around $125 million in the December quarter, and are still around $100 million per quarter through three quarters this year, so GTA Online is annualizing around $400 – 500 million per year five years after it initially launched."

"I doubt that RDR Online will generate [as much revenue per user as GTA Online], but think that $10 per user per year is likely (similar to what we see from Hearthstone, Overwatch, League of Legends and Fortnite)," Pachter added.

 

There it is, ladies and gentlemen. You decide for yourselves.

Edited by Edward Nashton

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TheSantader25

@Edward Nashton

I'm not saying R* or T2 aren't douchebags. I'm just saying these days many people are ignoring the actual thing that matters in this industry which is the "game" itself. Not what happens around it. The deal is different with R*. When you look at COD or EA you see games that not only lack quality but also have loads of sh*tty practices inside them. They also include a half assed SP or don't even have one. Then You look at GOW. You see an incredible SP but with no MP. R* release games differently. They offer a fully incredible SP experience with loads of content which can easily be compared to other games like GOW or Spider-Man that don't even include an online mode. But unlike others the game you bought also includes a massive online experience. You're basically paying 60$ for two games. If they somehow ripped you off with the SP experience, like you would say "the SP wasn't worth the price" then you could say they ripped you off. But the deal is different here. They are releasing two complete products that could easily be released as two different games as one game. 

 

By the way the main point here is that I think people pay to much attention to what happens "around" the games than what the games are themselves. I miss the old days when you picked up a good game and didn't even know who made it. People have forgotten that we buy games to enjoy them. not to complain about how the developer made loads of cash selling them. 

I don't think it's hard to ignore online if you're not interested in it if the SP is already a massive experience. Why do you guys do this to yourselves? Do you really want to disallow yourselves from experiencing a good game just because you hate the guts of a guy called zelnick and hate microtransactions?

Edited by TheSantader25

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Edward Nashton

@TheSantader25

I don't have an issue with paying full price for the game, or the fact alone that it has a multiplayer. Like you said, the curtain has been pulled back and we're all hyper aware of what goes on in the background, I don't think we can undo that now. R* screwed up big time and obliterated all trust I had in them - if I ever do play another game of theirs, and I come across something I feel is "lacking" in any way, I'll be bothered to no end wondering if it was a creative decision to leave that out or if it was a calculated move to get me to go to the multiplayer and try to manipulate me into spending more money - the thought of something of quality is being withheld from a video game because the developer wants to make a sleazy buck pisses me off more than anything. It creates a type of paranoia that sucks all the fun out of a game. I dunno how else to explain it; It's like you're eating at a restaurant you don't fully trust, and you think the waiter might have spit in your burger. I doesn't matter how good the burger is - if you think you feel a loogie dancing around in your mouth, you're not going to enjoy it. Why even bother eating there in the first place.

Edited by Edward Nashton

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TheSantader25

@Edward Nashton

I can fully feel and get what you're saying. Now I get your point. But talking about myself, well I'm a "deal" type of guy. If a deal is good I'll always take it and always feel happy that I took something that was worth it. I won't think about the "surroundings". What matters to me the most is that the money I spent was worth it or not? Nothing else. But that's just me. If R* aren't lying this time SP and MP will both get updates separately. Which means there will be content in MP that aren't in SP and there some in SP that won't be in MP. 

The first is that even though Red Dead Redemption 2 and Red Dead Online share the same gameplay mechanics and geography, we see them essentially as separate products that will grow and evolve independently of each other.

 

Edited by TheSantader25

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HaRdSTyLe_83
On 9/2/2018 at 3:04 PM, luisniko said:

That's why I always see all that yada-yada-microtransaction-lootbox protest as almost hypocritical bullsh*t that only get repeated by most, but only some meant it in the heart.

 

the protests are against gambling for under age people, not the loot boxes itself

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sara butcher

A) all online games are grindy

B) I'd rather have virtual currency than lootboxes

C) most online games charge for content and virtual currency

 

GTA Online content updates are free.

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RedDagger

A and C are only true if you have a very narrow view of online games.

 

The entire point of this thread is arguing that "they're free" isn't a valid defence...

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D9fred95
33 minutes ago, sara butcher said:

GTA Online content updates are free.

They're not free, not in the sense that R* gives them out of the kindness of their hearts. Shark Cards pay for them and Online is designed in such a way that the player is encouraged to buy them.

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sara butcher
2 minutes ago, D9fred95 said:

They're not free, not in the sense that R* gives them out of the kindness of their hearts. Shark Cards pay for them and Online is designed in such a way that the player is encouraged to buy them.

so?  other games offer paid content and virtual currency, while this one offers free content and virtual currency

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D9fred95
9 minutes ago, sara butcher said:

so?  other games offer paid content and virtual currency, while this one offers free content and virtual currency

Because the grind still exists regardless. Consider this, YouTuber TheProfessional, is a veteran player of GTAO and he considers $5 million every IRL day is a good day. He's experienced GTAO inside and out and $5 million was the best he considered for a day's work. In a game where everything is usually seven figures, $5 million for a real life 24 hours of work is pitiful. And that's if you know what you're doing, a majority of the playerbase don't.

 

And because other games do it worse doesn't mean GTAO is absolved by extension, it still falls into the pit of grinding nonsense.

Edited by D9fred95

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sara butcher
12 minutes ago, D9fred95 said:

Because the grind still exists regardless. Consider this, YouTuber TheProfessional, is a veteran player of GTAO and he considers $5 million every IRL day is a good day. He's experienced GTAO inside and out and $5 million was the best he considered for a day's work. In a game where everything is usually seven figures, $5 million for a real life 24 hours of work is pitiful. And that's if you know what you're doing, a majority of the playerbase don't.

 

And because other games do it worse doesn't mean GTAO is absolved by extension, it still falls into the pit of grinding nonsense.

"the grind exists regardless" is my exact point, all online games have a grind, therefore in a discussion about microtransactions, the grind discussions cancel each other out...  and no, not everything is 7 figures, most things are 5 or 6 figures, obviously a jet or large property is going to be millions of dollars...

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RedDagger
3 minutes ago, sara butcher said:

all online games have a grind

I take it you haven't played many online games tbh

 

As for the games that do use grinds, not all grinds are equal - some overpower a game, some compliment it. GTAO definitely tends towards the former. 

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sara butcher
Just now, RedDagger said:

I take it you haven't played many online games tbh

 

As for the games that do use grinds, not all grinds are equal - some overpower a game, some compliment it. GTAO definitely tends towards the former. 

I do agree with that, but I don't think the grind is relevant to whether or not an update is "free", it's more relevant to game design.

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D9fred95
9 minutes ago, sara butcher said:

"the grind exists regardless" is my exact point, all online games have a grind, therefore in a discussion about microtransactions, the grind discussions cancel each other out...  and no, not everything is 7 figures, most things are 5 or 6 figures, obviously a jet or large property is going to be millions of dollars...

Like RedDagger said, some grinds compliment a game and some overpower it. Something leveling up in CoD is fine since the best ways to earn XP are killing and challenges and you're going to be killing alot. Challenges themselves are largely player skill which encourages you to get better. In GTAO, the goal is to make money, R* doesn't want players to end up with so much money really quickly, fair enough. But they give you so little in comparison to the prices of the things you can buy that it makes the game frustrating. It's this kind of game design that almost killed Battlefront 2, nobody wants to spend hours and hours to obtain a couple items in a game filled with items.

 

I said everything is usually seven figures. Not everything is seven figures (though they tend to be 500k plus) but a majority of vehicles in the new updates are seven figures. Of the 15 vehicles introduced in After Hours, 9 are seven figures (with two just edging out at 800k-900k) and that's not counting the buildings you are encouraged to buy (yes, encouraged, Your contacts will spam phone calls at you until you buy one).

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sara butcher
3 minutes ago, D9fred95 said:

Like RedDagger said, some grinds compliment a game and some overpower it. Something leveling up in CoD is fine since the best ways to earn XP are killing and challenges and you're going to be killing alot. Challenges themselves are largely player skill which encourages you to get better. In GTAO, the goal is to make money, R* doesn't want players to end up with so much money really quickly, fair enough. But they give you so little in comparison to the prices of the things you can buy that it makes the game frustrating. It's this kind of game design that almost killed Battlefront 2, nobody wants to spend hours and hours to obtain a couple items in a game filled with items.

 

I said everything is usually seven figures. Not everything is seven figures (though they tend to be 500k plus) but a majority of vehicles in the new updates are seven figures. Of the 15 vehicles introduced in After Hours, 9 are seven figures (with two just edging out at 800k-900k) and that's not counting the buildings you are encouraged to buy (yes, encouraged, Your contacts will spam phone calls at you until you buy one).

how are you going to use COD as an example of a good grind?  it is incredibly hard to earn COD points, which they also sell (virtual currency)...  and while I agree that GTA Online is grindy they have made it easier than ever to grind solo, and made it so you can make GTA$500k+/hr...  and of the 537 vehicle in the game only 127 of them are GTA$1M or above, also the majority of home properties are under GTA$1M...

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D9fred95
2 minutes ago, sara butcher said:

how are you going to use COD as an example of a good grind?  it is incredibly hard to earn COD points, which they also sell (virtual currency)...  and while I agree that GTA Online is grindy they have made it easier than ever to grind solo, and made it so you can make GTA$500k+/hr...  and of the 537 vehicle in the game only 127 of them are GTA$1M or above, also the majority of home properties are under GTA$1M...

Not COD points, the actual XP, the stuff you get from kills and challenges. That progression was fair in my eyes. Most of the microtransaction stuff in earlier COD games are paint jobs though I read they got lootboxes now. Despite that, the leveling up system is still fine, completing a difficult challenge doesn't give you like 10 XP or some nonsense. 

 

I wouldn't say R* "made it easier" to make 500k an hour, more like they accidentally did it. I say this because I assume you're talking about the I/E method of selling top-range cars, which is only reliable if you max out the number of low-end and medium-end cars in your garage. Otherwise R* could've just added the ability to outright choose a top-range car to begin with but they want to enforce the grind so they make it random.

 

Once again, I said the vehicles in the new updates are by a majority seven figures or at the very least in the 700k-900k range. Certainly vehicles early in the game's life were much cheaper, but this was before R* started pushing Shark Cards. After that, the prices for these vehicles jumped up considerably. For example, the Hydra is $3 million, pretty fair. The Lazer, a jet that's been in the game since day one and is kinda inferior (can't hover, can't spawn at helipads), and can be freely stolen from FZ costs $8 million. Quite the price jump. In the same vein, home properties like penthouses cost under $1 million because they were there since day one, before R* went nuts with SC's. Properties can still cost $1 million but they're the absolute bare-bones and in cases like the Gunrunning bunker, in terrible locations.

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sara butcher
1 minute ago, D9fred95 said:

Not COD points, the actual XP, the stuff you get from kills and challenges. That progression was fair in my eyes. Most of the microtransaction stuff in earlier COD games are paint jobs though I read they got lootboxes now. Despite that, the leveling up system is still fine, completing a difficult challenge doesn't give you like 10 XP or some nonsense. 

 

I wouldn't say R* "made it easier" to make 500k an hour, more like they accidentally did it. I say this because I assume you're talking about the I/E method of selling top-range cars, which is only reliable if you max out the number of low-end and medium-end cars in your garage. Otherwise R* could've just added the ability to outright choose a top-range car to begin with but they want to enforce the grind so they make it random.

 

Once again, I said the vehicles in the new updates are by a majority seven figures or at the very least in the 700k-900k range. Certainly vehicles early in the game's life were much cheaper, but this was before R* started pushing Shark Cards. After that, the prices for these vehicles jumped up considerably. For example, the Hydra is $3 million, pretty fair. The Lazer, a jet that's been in the game since day one and is kinda inferior (can't hover, can't spawn at helipads), and can be freely stolen from FZ costs $8 million. Quite the price jump. In the same vein, home properties like penthouses cost under $1 million because they were there since day one, before R* went nuts with SC's. Properties can still cost $1 million but they're the absolute bare-bones and in cases like the Gunrunning bunker, in terrible locations.

 so what if the xp is fine, the xp gained in GTA Online is also fine, that's not the part of the grind that people have an issue with, if you can't stay on topic I am done discussing this with you...  

 

the $500k/hr has nothing to do with the I/E exploit, it's just the current grind that allows that, they added the Terrorbyte which makes the grind much easier, not only sourcing but also the client jobs...

 

as for the AH update having majority expensive vehicles, they were also mosty military toys...

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D9fred95
21 hours ago, sara butcher said:

 so what if the xp is fine, the xp gained in GTA Online is also fine, that's not the part of the grind that people have an issue with, if you can't stay on topic I am done discussing this with you...  

 

The XP in CoD is the main "currency" of the game. Everyone works to get as much XP as possible so they can get higher levels, new weapons, etc. The main "currency" of GTAO is money. There's XP too, but the money is the bigger deal. The money is what allows you to buy all the content GTAO provides. It's the grind for money, not XP, that's the problem. 

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