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Kirsty

The People vs Take-Two: OpenIV mod shut down

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boppa_

Very eloquently put 👍

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NoobDude-

Trimmed version of 60+ pages of comments on the other thread. Well done.

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Stryfaar

Very well said, Kirsty. I agree completely. The only things we can hope for right now:

  • Take-Two realising the bad business decision they pulled off and quickly reverses their decision.
  • OpenIV team decides to go to court and defend. We have enough evidence to achieve justice. (But then, in reality, money is the root of all evil)
  • R* implements official mod support by having an official mod tool similar to OpenIV, or implementing Steam Workshop on the game. I believe this can be supported by their recent statement released to PC Gamer:
  • "Take-Two's actions were not specifically targeting single player mods. Unfortunately OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody. We are working to figure out how we can continue to support the creative community without negatively impacting our players."

R* leaves Take-Two Interactive.

I guess the V modding community will never get this hotdog texture mod with spec maps to ever get released. :r*:

4cfc6421b1ec08dacfd4b26df2edf302.png

Released

Edited by Stryfaar

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Fireboyd78

Rockstar themselves have always been supportive of modding, even showcasing the best they've seen on the Newswire, and in the very early days there's examples of them using modding tools during development.

Could you provide an example of this? Just curious to see what you meant by that.

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Kirsty

Could you provide an example of this? Just curious to see what you meant by that.

Some posts taken from the OpenIV announcement topic, first I've learned of it too. I'll add a link to the OP to clarify.

 

I can't believe no one else has mentioned this, but this is the most hypocritical move ever from Take Two Interactive, as GTA London 1969 and GTAL61 were built using GTA Cars, the GTA 1 equivalent of Open IV! They even thanked the mod authors in the credits along side Take 2 Interactive software! youtube video

Also worth noting - carcols.dat from GTA VC (mentioned earlier but without a conrete file name):

 

 

# Generated By MultiEdit V1.3 On 14/09/2002 22:46:02 [http://icey.gouranga.com]
Plus obviously mobile games but these barely count since it's outsourced work.

 

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D T

Could you provide an example of this? Just curious to see what you meant by that.

They used iCEnhancer for GTA V in-game movies. iCE was made possible using modding tools, like OpenIV.

 

slJ1hf5.png

LM0K21s.png

 

What you're looking at is the red sky bug. A common graphical error that occurs when installing iCEnhancer on later versions of GTA IV. Rockstar couldn't even be bothered to downgrade their copy of GTA IV to fix that error when filming these scenes.

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K^2

So from experience with OpenIV (including some internals), ScriptHook, and the kind of tools you'd actually use to crack a game, the claims that R* is making about OpenIV connection to on-line hacking are total bull.

 

This was an action taken by clueless managers who have no f*cking idea how modding or hacking works. And they've made false claims about it. OpenIV has not contributed to the on-line hacking. Just the opposite.

 

Back in the days of San Andreas modding, making a comprehensive mod required a lot of know-how and hours spent on IRC channels. Until a few days ago, making GTAV mods was comparatively easy. The underground community for GTA mods has shrunk considerably thanks to the availability of OpenIV.

 

This is about to be reversed. Modders who still want to make modifications for GTAV are going to flood right back into the same IRC channels and message boards, fueling new growth of underground modding community. Among the notable fallout, we will see faster development of hacks designed to bypass any security designed to prevent on-line cheating. Take-Two just shot themselves in the foot big time.

 

Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, the entire community is going to suffer. Everyone except for cheaters, of course, who will be thrilled.

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unbid

As stated, they no longer support mods that allow fans to "look inside" game files or "extract" them for use. This leads us to a couple of potential reasons that OpenIV could be at fault for:

 

1) "Leakers" who have made a name for themselves by looking at unreleased items in the game files such as vehicles from major GTA Online updates and showcasing them for all to see

 

Our bets are on 1) on this occasion.

I remembered when I did an interview with Yan for GTAForums Weekly that I asked him on R* response towards leakers of future GTA Online content. This was his response:

 

 

U: Do you think R* will give you any warnings for leaking the next game update content?

Y: Rockstar never said anything about my leaks, and I made it clear to them several times that if they ever get tired of them, they can simply send me an email or a Twitter DM to tell me to stop posting leaks or whatever they would want, and I would happily do what they say. Sure, I post leaks, but I'm still a big Rockstar fan and I still have a lot of respect for them, and even though leaks might seem disrespectful, if they don't say anything I just assume they're ok with that. And judging by what I heard, I actually believe they're ok with my leaks, probably because I'm not being an asshole (unlike someone else).

I need to clarify this with Yan if R* personally emailed him to stop leaking future contents. If they are, then that should be the main reason why T2 send C&D to OpenIV.

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Crystal3lf

Couple of things I want to know are:

 

 

I got C&D letter from lawyers company (legal representative of Take Two in Russia), both in electronic and paper form, to my employer address. This C&D accuses me in Russian laws violations.

- Where is the proof of this letter.

 

- Why would a multi-billion dollar company send a letter with bad grammar in the first place.

 

- Why are other mods still allowed? No online cheats are going to have any problems getting back online, so why would they target a singleplayer only mod and not others?

 

- Why are GTA V RP/other online mods still up and running, mods that takes any profit from Rockstar away completely.

 

- "Unfortunately OpenIV enables recent malicious mods that allow harassment of players and interfere with the GTA Online experience for everybody."

 

How do we know OpenIV isn't hiding anything? It's not open source, so who knows whats in there that can mess with online. How do we know they are not hiding something, and instead of owning up to it they thought they could get the entire community to rally against T2/R* so they wouldn't feel bad about it.

 

 

The developers of OpenIV, and many users of the tool, have been categorically expressing that it has never been and cannot be used for GTA Online.

It has actually, I'm not sure what the use was for in Menyoo, but it was an option to have OpenIV installed alongside the online cheating mod.

Edited by Crystal3lf

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Sunrise Driver

^^^^^^Questions are irrelevant now since C* made an official statement and thus confirmed they had sent the letter.

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livejoker

Wow, I'm not even into modding and I know this is the end of an era. T2 are taking the full heat and Rockstar are playing the puppy eyes on the sidelines. Hopefully they're legitimately concerned about their player base and trying to smooth over any injury that T2, big bad boyfriend that they are, did to their fans. Or, they can be real sneaky and be in on the whole act. I just don't know what Rockstar is doing - are they helplessly trying to keep it together or are they using T2 as the messenger?

Personally? The Rockstar I grew up with is dead. It died when shark cards became a thing. Not the fact it was in-game currency, it was the fact they hinted at a living and breathing world with GTA:O but what we got was an overpriced in-game experience that only benefits the cheaters and the financially rich players willing to drop $100 on in-game money to afford a boat. That was the death of Rockstar for me. Now this? How many nails can you put in a coffin?

Edited by livejoker

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OysterBarron

From reading their official statement they are basically saying that instead of actually working on ways to combat cheaters using the exploits all they've simply done is to ban openiv. Surely it's in there interest to work closely with openiv team in order to combat these exploits together!

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Microsoft Word

This is such an illogical business move from a company like Take 2, especially where it contradicts one of the main purposes of releasing a game to an open platform where they will benefit financially from the appeal of the growing modding community. But no, that's not how they see it.

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Great Britain

Respectfully bidding farewell to this series. The direction it is headed towards is an obvious one and there is no way in hell I would like to be a part of it anymore. If this is what is going to happen, I'll be happy to not even acknowledge the existence of this "franchise" from here on after. I made a post regarding the latest DLC and how disconnected I feel from that typical GTA vibe and I think it's safe to now say that atleast for me, GTA died after V. Money talks and we all see what it has to say as far as the future of this series is concerned.

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OPIVMOD

The Protest is working, I've been watching their Stocks, it's falling hard and fast, they are losing money faster than they can get. It's time for Take2 to pull it's head out it's butt and listen or it's stock will disappear.

 

Investor Relations

NASDAQ GS | TTWO (Common Stock) $74.01 0.37 (0.50%)
High$74.73
Low$72.53
Volume2,760,858
Market Cap$7,684,968,599

06/15/17 4:00 p.m. ET

Data provided by Nasdaq. Minimum 15 minutes delayed.

 

http://ir.take2games.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=86428&p=irol-irhome

Edited by OPIVMOD

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Mister Pink

Respectfully bidding farewell to this series. The direction it is headed towards is an obvious one and there is no way in hell I would like to be a part of it anymore. If this is what is going to happen, I'll be happy to not even acknowledge the existence of this "franchise" from here on after. I made a post regarding the latest DLC and how disconnected I feel from that typical GTA vibe and I think it's safe to now say that atleast for me, GTA died after V. Money talks and we all see what it has to say as far as the future of this series is concerned.

 

I've been feeling like this for some time. It started with abandonment of SP, Microtransactions and now this. I don't even mod but this seems to send a certain message. I think they're going in a direction that doesn't make me feel like a valued customer any more, despite spending hundreds on their products for many years.

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Spider-Vice

Now this is a well written article if I've ever seen one, very well put! ;)

One thing to consider is that Rockstar is likely not innocent in this whole conundrum. The C&D sent to GooD (which was verified with PC Gamer and with Ash) had clear technical language about what the tool could do. This includes, but isn't limited to looking at RPF files, and thus being able to see some future content (i.e. dripfed cars from GTA Online updates). Looking at the way some of the demands of the Cease & Desist were worded, this does not seem to come only from Take-Two, even because Take-Two would essentially only launch a copyright notice and not a note as detailed as that, because Take-Two knows nothing about how games work.
Take-Two is a company associated with law majors and its own CEO comes straight out of private equity, they are not gamers whatsoever. A Cease & Desist that has that amount of technical language has to come from Rockstar as well, which is how I see things.
As for the grammatical errors, legal documents are sent in the recipient's native language (in this case his country's), something was lost in translation as GooD is not natively English himself.

Is this a stupid decision? Oh yes! Firstly, there are many ways Rockstar could've fixed this instead of aggressively going after mod tools and obviously falsely blaming GTA Online hacking for this (OIV cannot mod Online):

  • Release the vehicles and any other asset updates in separate updates! (everyone would rather download a 10 MB update every month)
  • Rockstar has enough resources and money to hire security/engine programmers to work on the PC version. The problem with this is, with internal focus shifting to Red Dead Redemption 2 and to other internal projects, PC-specific fixes have been decreasing or being less significant every passing update, which denotes a lack of care, because if they actually wanted to fix the issue, they COULD get some people back on the PC code to work on something. They've done it before, they could do it now.

Are they actually "trying" to look at a solution for the "creative community"? No. Believing this is futile, because OpenIV was the main hub for most mods in GTA V, IV, and even Max Payne 3. Them cutting the root of the problem (i.e. The OpenIV team) leaves them absolutely no way to "resolve the problem", especially when hooks like ScriptHook might be their next target. In fact, that should have been their target in the first place! (not that I agree with it) There is NO way Rockstar is able to find a solution, and their PR speech isn't going to lead us anywhere.

(personal opinion) Is protesting going to get us anywhere? Not sure. Protesting is really taking its toll in some of the GTA V PC community and store pages. Negative reviews, gaming Youtubers covering this issue, it's making the rounds on famous news sites... However, one thing we have to consider is that TTWO's/R*'s community is and has always been majorly on the consoles, and in the community that buys shark cards. For a while, we have noticed Rockstar hasn't cared about any amount of backlash or negative feedback they receive, as long as GTA Online DLC's release, and well received, and people pay for them using shark cards if they don't have enough GTA$. The proportions this has taken might force something out of them other than an obviously bullsh*t PR statement, but I wouldn't expect much ever. Maybe the fact that Gunrunning also flopped might cause an actual reaction, I don't know.

 

Thinking about Steam Workshop support is also unrealistic, as Rockstar has clearly stopped doing large engine updates to PC. It's only likely they might change the game's encryption so current versions of OpenIV stop working to look at files. Looking at what they said in their C&D, and with their full understanding that OpenIV is not used for Online cheating (I'm 101% positive they know), they are very clearly targetting "leakers" and those who look at beta files, the same way they targetted all the developers whose artist portfolios I and many other GTAForums members looked at, because "we're not supposed to see what we don't know". The PR statement is just something they had to churn out to the public, and not the actual reason, as it is with all of those statements.

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Damned_Hitman

Respectfully bidding farewell to this series. The direction it is headed towards is an obvious one and there is no way in hell I would like to be a part of it anymore. If this is what is going to happen, I'll be happy to not even acknowledge the existence of this "franchise" from here on after. I made a post regarding the latest DLC and how disconnected I feel from that typical GTA vibe and I think it's safe to now say that atleast for me, GTA died after V. Money talks and we all see what it has to say as far as the future of this series is concerned.

 

I can imagine you're not alone in these feelings, and a lot of others like yourself are feeling their inner Rockstargames fanboyistic GTA love is dying quickly due to the vibe disappearing and greed.

 

*Edit, also meant to say, props to Kirsty for the well written summary, as someone who is more of a 'casual' gamer, PC modding isn't something I'm too aware about, so appreciated all that was written.

Edited by Damned_Hitman

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Lozano71

The worst that threatens us is stagnation at this level. Anyway, the program can be used. What this all ends - we'll see. But I already decided that I will not buy GTA VI if they continue this policy.

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PJR_4015

When you talk about leakers, do you mean people who reveal unreleased content that was already present in the game files, or people who reveal unreleased content gotten from download servers or sources inside R*? For instance dripfed vehicles including the upcoming the Cheetah Classic and Torero, but also previously released Christmas and Halloween updates, often already came packaged with bigger DLCs and were released later on. It would be naive from R* to think people won't show this content to people who don't have OpenIV. I can understand if R* wants to take measures against the other type of leaker since they actively have do more work to acquire the content instead of more or less getting it handed to them.

 

It's also foolish from T2 and R* to think people will accept to only mod the game without accessing the files. There is only so much you can do with scripts and by editing, adding and replacing stuff the game really starts to shine.

 

The thing that bothers me the most now is that the development of OpenIV has halted. There were still many important files waiting to be decrypted, but unless a miracle happens,we won't be seeing that anytime soon.

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Nem_Wan

One thing to consider is that Rockstar is likely not innocent in this whole conundrum. The C&D sent to GooD (which was verified with PC Gamer and with Ash) had clear technical language about what the tool could do. This includes, but isn't limited to looking at RPF files, and thus being able to see some future content (i.e. dripfed cars from GTA Online updates). Looking at the way some of the demands of the Cease & Desist were worded, this does not seem to come only from Take-Two, even because Take-Two would essentially only launch a copyright notice and not a note as detailed as that, because Take-Two knows nothing about how games work.

Take-Two is a company associated with law majors and its own CEO comes straight out of private equity, they are not gamers whatsoever. A Cease & Desist that has that amount of technical language has to come from Rockstar as well, which is how I see things.

As for the grammatical errors, legal documents are sent in the recipient's native language (in this case his country's), something was lost in translation as GooD is not natively English himself.

 

I understand we want to feel as Rockstar fans that the people who make the games are the good guys and there's an "evil corporation" controlling them, but the reality is there is no true distinction between Take-Two and Rockstar. Take-Two created the Rockstar Games brand when they acquired BMG Interactive and Sam Houser moved to New York. Rockstar is an office suite in the Take-Two headquarters which directs the work of the many studios Take-Two had acquired and merged under the Rockstar brand.

 

The closest thing possible to Rockstar separating itself from Take-Two would be key people leaving, taking as many co-workers with them as they can, and forming new companies, like The Benz and a few others have gone and started their game Everywhere, with reportedly a team of about 30 people, a tiny fraction of the resources they had at Rockstar but free to do their own thing. If everyone at Rockstar did this there would be many little start-ups but no more Rockstar.

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Kirsty

The story has now reached the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40301450

 

If anyone sees any articles about this, please post them so we can see what they've suggested. There seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread about the use of singleplayer modding in general.

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Spider-Vice

So, essentially. According to the original Take-Two vs. Modding (link to post) thread, the OpenIV plugin did allow you to go into Online if you didn't have ScriptHook installed, but with several conditions:

  • You would be put into a special modders lobby
  • Only people with the same mods can join you, all others are kicked out.

This does not include money and advantage mods, as the Online scripts are stored in Rockstar's remote servers. People only ever used this for visual mods like VisualV, textures, etc.

 

HOWEVER

 

If you didn't use the OpenIV plugin and straight away replaced original files (the plugin allows you to place mods into a separate folder), the game's code would kick you out of Online automatically, saying your game is altered. So essentially it looks like they DID develop the game around OpenIV's existence, where they could've just restricted absolutely everything.

 

Now, looking at what was said about the Cease and Desist received by the OpenIV team, it's clear either way that Online wasn't really their worry, but yes people looking at the files and leaking stuff, along with porting maps from game to game. All in all a bit bullsh*t...

Edited by Spider-Vice

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Great Britain

The story has now reached the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40301450

 

If anyone sees any articles about this, please post them so we can see what they've suggested. There seems to be a lot of misinformation being spread about the use of singleplayer modding in general.

 

I hope it gets even bigger and grabs more attention to make other developers realize how not to screw over their fans.

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vvmachete

And despite all the modding ("good" and "bad"), GTA V is one of the most successful and profitable games in history...

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Claude_Lib

So, essentially. According to the original Take-Two vs. Modding (link to post) thread, the OpenIV plugin did allow you to go into Online

Now I feel so f*cking bad about bringing this up...

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LennyH

In the past, Rockstar was more community-based. If you remember most of Yeardley Diamond's videos were put on R*'s newswire and they even announced it on their newswire the time he passed away. Mods like MTA:SA had semi-support of R* themselves. The reason they had OIV team shut down was not that it allowed you to modify the original online experience because OopenIV doesn't support that thing anyways. I'm not sure of the true reason but the bust guesses I have are that R* is planning on officially supporting mods in some way or it was related to the Liberty City and RDR map ports in some way.

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Jimbatron

Well written Kirsty (edited in, forgetting my manners initially).

 

Very much a novice modder here, but my 2 cents.

 

I've made my own IV Multiplayer mod. Nothing malicious - I've made a new Cops 'n Crooks set of getaway locations. The mod is in tight distribution with trusted friends, and the title of the server is hard coded so it's clear anyone is playing a modded game mode (before I get flamed). I have enough knowledge, if I'd have wished, to do things such as enable god mode for specific players and vehicles - but I chose not to.

 

Open IV couldn't be used to make this kind of mod. I haven't tried to edit any GTAO scripts, but at my best guess, it would be the same story. It's not impossible of course someone might have used Open IV in conjunction with other software I'm not aware of, but from my perspective the amount of experience you'd need to do that sort of thing, you'd be fully capable of starting from scratch anyway. At most I would say Open IV might be a CONVENIENT tool for cheaters much in the same way it is for all of us (working out what R* have changed with a patch for example), but I suspect it is neither necessary nor sufficient for the trouble makers.

 

Arguably that's speculation on my part, tempered with experience, but here's exhibit A for the defense: the most notorious and cancerous mod menu has released a new version AFTER Open IV was shut down and the gunrunning update came out. So clearly, shutting down Open IV has not stopped cheating. I'm fairly certain the mod menus causing the problems are all written in languages like C. It might have been more plausible if they'd gone after the Script Hook as we know at least one cheat is utilising this (ripped of without AB's permission it should be noted). Please correct me if I'm wrong but these malicious tools generally don't modify the actual game files (which is what Open IV facilitates), they inject code while it is running.

 

In my mind there are two possibilities:

1) In response to cheating, Take2 have adopted an extreme stance banning the most major modding tool (most likely IMHO without full knowledge of it's capabilities).

2) There is another reason for shutting down Open IV, that they are not sharing. The Liberty City in V project the Open IV team were working on is one possibility, Open IV being used to inspect game files and leak pre-release info is another.

 

My money is on 2) and 1) being used as a (very faulty) PR smoke screen.

Edited by Jimbatron

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