Take Two vs. Modding

[SaveOpenIV]

 

 

 

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Before you come after us about scripthook, he uploaded it onto his site. Don't get mad at us, because He didn't distribute it because it's not updated on the main page, and only the 'savy' can download it from the site.

Maybe just maybe this was one of the schemes to not get into trouble. In a way, it's not his fault.

 

It's the creators responsibility to ensure it does not leak out. This will not avert trouble...it's on his server because he's getting it ready...however now you've all stepped that up to actual distribution. You realise this could come back on the ENTIRE OpenIV team? This right here. This is the killing blow. Some people just do not know to leave well alone.

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Remind me again how that CnD--directed solely at OpenIV unless I'm mistaken--affects SHV??

 

Read what Ash_735 posted again...it's very non-specific...CnD's always are.

 

 

Friend, you're throwing this way out of perspective.

#1. A.B. Always does this.

#2. He was waiting do this this anyways.

#3. ScriptHookV would be unaffected due to the OpenIV Case. That was for OpenIV and parties responsible.

#4 Another thing too, Even if this does come back at Take2 it wouldn't matter cause no one else was part of it. They could then contest it in court and Alex would admit that he worked on SHV because that's his project alone.

 

As I said, cease and desists are non-specific in order to stop you just rebranding your project. Unfortunately ScripthookV gets caught in the crossfire. Ultimately it all comes down to T2's discretion, they may choose to go after Blade and the team for breaching the CnD...or they may not...but if I were you I'd get your wallet ready incase the OpenIV team need you to pay for their legal fees.

 

Again, you're missing the point. OpenIV & ScripthookV are two separate projects. Both load ASI files, but the other one loads scripts in the mod folder.

 

ScriptHookV is it's own project, and not even apart of OpenIV, sure he was part of the OIV team, but that has nothing to do with it. No one else in the OIV team breached anything. Each one was handed to them separately.

Edited June 22, 2017 by SaveOpenIV

[MeatSafeMurderer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Before you come after us about scripthook, he uploaded it onto his site. Don't get mad at us, because He didn't distribute it because it's not updated on the main page, and only the 'savy' can download it from the site.

Maybe just maybe this was one of the schemes to not get into trouble. In a way, it's not his fault.

 

It's the creators responsibility to ensure it does not leak out. This will not avert trouble...it's on his server because he's getting it ready...however now you've all stepped that up to actual distribution. You realise this could come back on the ENTIRE OpenIV team? This right here. This is the killing blow. Some people just do not know to leave well alone.

 

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Remind me again how that CnD--directed solely at OpenIV unless I'm mistaken--affects SHV??

 

Read what Ash_735 posted again...it's very non-specific...CnD's always are.

 

 

Friend, you're throwing this way out of perspective.

#1. A.B. Always does this.

#2. He was waiting do this this anyways.

#3. ScriptHookV would be unaffected due to the OpenIV Case. That was for OpenIV and parties responsible.

#4 Another thing too, Even if this does come back at Take2 it wouldn't matter cause no one else was part of it. They could then contest it in court and Alex would admit that he worked on SHV because that's his project alone.

 

As I said, cease and desists are non-specific in order to stop you just rebranding your project. Unfortunately ScripthookV gets caught in the crossfire. Ultimately it all comes down to T2's discretion, they may choose to go after Blade and the team for breaching the CnD...or they may not...but if I were you I'd get your wallet ready incase the OpenIV team need you to pay for their legal fees.

 

There is a reason AB was waiting to see how this all turned out.

 

SHV was never re-branded and never related to OpenIV or any of the other hacking tools in the first place. Trying to claim it is, or will somehow be 'caught in the crossfire' w/o evidence of T2 sending out more CnD's (beyond those they already have), is nothing more than spreading FUD.

 

You obviously don't understand how a cease and desist works and the intricacies of it. Nor do I fully...but suffice it to say that a CnD may shutdown multiple projects without mentioning any by name.

 

 

Again, you're missing the point. OpenIV & ScripthookV are two separate projects. Both load ASI files, but the other one loads scripts in the mod folder.

 

ScriptHookV is it's own project, and not even apart of OpenIV, sure he was part of the OIV team, but that has nothing to do with it. No one else in the OIV team breached anything. Each one was handed to them separately.

Again, it doesn't matter that it is a seperate project...the cease and desist is NON-SPECIFIC. It bans you from working on ANY project that fits certain criteria.

Edited June 22, 2017 by MeatSafeMurderer

[SaveOpenIV]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Before you come after us about scripthook, he uploaded it onto his site. Don't get mad at us, because He didn't distribute it because it's not updated on the main page, and only the 'savy' can download it from the site.

Maybe just maybe this was one of the schemes to not get into trouble. In a way, it's not his fault.

 

It's the creators responsibility to ensure it does not leak out. This will not avert trouble...it's on his server because he's getting it ready...however now you've all stepped that up to actual distribution. You realise this could come back on the ENTIRE OpenIV team? This right here. This is the killing blow. Some people just do not know to leave well alone.

 

 

Congrats guys...now there's a very real chance Blade will never update scripthook again regardless of how this CnD turns out...the CnD is still in place...and you all just made him breach it. I hope you're happy.

Remind me again how that CnD--directed solely at OpenIV unless I'm mistaken--affects SHV??

 

Read what Ash_735 posted again...it's very non-specific...CnD's always are.

 

 

Friend, you're throwing this way out of perspective.

#1. A.B. Always does this.

#2. He was waiting do this this anyways.

#3. ScriptHookV would be unaffected due to the OpenIV Case. That was for OpenIV and parties responsible.

#4 Another thing too, Even if this does come back at Take2 it wouldn't matter cause no one else was part of it. They could then contest it in court and Alex would admit that he worked on SHV because that's his project alone.

 

As I said, cease and desists are non-specific in order to stop you just rebranding your project. Unfortunately ScripthookV gets caught in the crossfire. Ultimately it all comes down to T2's discretion, they may choose to go after Blade and the team for breaching the CnD...or they may not...but if I were you I'd get your wallet ready incase the OpenIV team need you to pay for their legal fees.

 

There is a reason AB was waiting to see how this all turned out.

 

SHV was never re-branded and never related to OpenIV or any of the other hacking tools in the first place. Trying to claim it is, or will somehow be 'caught in the crossfire' w/o evidence of T2 sending out more CnD's (beyond those they already have), is nothing more than spreading FUD.

 

You obviously don't understand how a cease and desist works and the intricacies of it. Nor do I fully...but suffice it to say that a CnD may shutdown multiple projects without mentioning any by name.

 

Again, you're missing the point. OpenIV & ScripthookV are two separate projects. Both load ASI files, but the other one loads scripts in the mod folder.

 

ScriptHookV is it's own project, and not even apart of OpenIV, sure he was part of the OIV team, but that has nothing to do with it. No one else in the OIV team breached anything. Each one was handed to them separately.

Again, it doesn't matter that it is a seperate project...the cease and desist is NON-SPECIFIC. It bans you from working on ANY project that fits certain criteria.

 

Everyone here knows what a Cease & Desist is. Don't assume you know every legal documentation and then assume that we don't understand what we're talking about either. People here have close ties to the Author of OpenIV & A.B. At this point, It doesn't matter, the point is: He was going to release it anyways if T2 liked it or not. I'm not responding to this anymore, I've said what is just and what's not.

 

In other news GTAV Review time

Last night

RECENT: Overwhelmingly Negative (48,719 reviews)

OVERALL: Mixed (238,955 reviews)

 

Percentages

Recent: 11% (48,719)

Overall: 64% (238,955)

 

Now (as of 9:34PM)

RECENT: Overwhelmingly Negative (50,264 reviews)

OVERALL: Mixed (240,477 reviews)

 

Percentages

Recent: 11% (50,264 reviews)

Overall: 64% (240,477 reviews)

 

Total from last night

Recent: 1522

Overall: 1545

 

Gotta get back to work now, see you guys in a bit.

Edited June 22, 2017 by SaveOpenIV

[MeatSafeMurderer]

 

Again, it doesn't matter that it is a seperate project...the cease and desist is NON-SPECIFIC. It bans you from working on ANY project that fits certain criteria.

Everyone here knows what a Cease & Desist is. Don't assume you know every legal documentation and then assume that we don't understand what we're talking about either. People here have close ties to the Author of OpenIV & A.B. At this point, It doesn't matter, the point is: He was going to release it anyways if T2 liked it or not.

 

How do you know? I don't see any evidence of that. What I see is a zip file that was hosted on his server in preperation for a possible release that may or may not have happened dependin on the outcome of this war against T2...only to be stolen by impatient members of the community who don't realize the damage they've potentially just done.

[Bitch Ass Bullshit]

 

 

Again, it doesn't matter that it is a seperate project...the cease and desist is NON-SPECIFIC. It bans you from working on ANY project that fits certain criteria.

Everyone here knows what a Cease & Desist is. Don't assume you know every legal documentation and then assume that we don't understand what we're talking about either. People here have close ties to the Author of OpenIV & A.B. At this point, It doesn't matter, the point is: He was going to release it anyways if T2 liked it or not.

 

How do you know? I don't see any evidence of that. What I see is a zip file that was hosted on his server in preperation for a possible release that may or may not have happened dependin on the outcome of this war against T2...only to be stolen by impatient members of the community who don't realize the damage they've potentially just done.

 

Why host on the website then if that is the easiest way to steal? Its like some saying, i have 1 million in my locked car, take it if u can. A thief can take it by breaking the glass or any other way. How about not uploading to the server if he really like "really" wanted to release later.

[MrGTAmodsgerman]

 

 

Again, it doesn't matter that it is a seperate project...the cease and desist is NON-SPECIFIC. It bans you from working on ANY project that fits certain criteria.

Everyone here knows what a Cease & Desist is. Don't assume you know every legal documentation and then assume that we don't understand what we're talking about either. People here have close ties to the Author of OpenIV & A.B. At this point, It doesn't matter, the point is: He was going to release it anyways if T2 liked it or not.

 

How do you know? I don't see any evidence of that. What I see is a zip file that was hosted on his server in preperation for a possible release that may or may not have happened dependin on the outcome of this war against T2...only to be stolen by impatient members of the community who don't realize the damage they've potentially just done.

 

Maybe youre right, and i feel a little bit bad for it, but if not me, someone else. Sooner or later. I talked to a lot of friends in the last hours, and they all tried to do this but failed some how.

 

But i think AB was working on the website issue, so he planned to release it but the website got f*cked up and he decide it to fix it first. Look in the readme file, its also changed.

My intention was the website issue, a few days before the website was slow and won't load like something changed, but after that, a lot of people like me got the website issue that still exist.

 

If he don't want it, he can delete the file, i didn't upload it somewhere, i respect the credits he set. Anybody that tries to upload it on official site, get removed, i mean the file. So in anyways its still private and why should TakeTwo read 126 sites to see this?

 

And the fact is, he uploaded it to the site. The file is not very big, so he can upload it once he want it to release that easy

Edited June 22, 2017 by MrGTAmodsgerman

[Big Smork]

Damn i didn't know that the Menyoo trainer also had a online version. I always used SNT but switched to Menyoo because it had more features.. idk i kinda regret now since i absolutely hate online hacks.

IMHO Menyoo's online community was very friendly and helpful. They even banned people who they found out were using the menu for greifing purposes. It was a menu only meant to provide more sh*t to do in Online and since I heavily despise microtransactions in $60 games (Which leads to this kind of sh*t happening due to publishers wanting them in your face at ALL times.) Which in my opinion justified using some of the cheatier options they had. Unfortunately this is against Rockstars TOS so it makes perfect since why they were C&D instead of incorporating new anti cheat measures because that just leads to an arms race.

[nkjellman]

Has anyone obtained the "mpgunrunning in SP" file? It seems to have been taken off of gta5-mods.

[MrEnigma]

Has anyone obtained the "mpgunrunning in SP" file? It seems to have been taken off of gta5-mods.

 

http://www.grandtheftauto5.fr/telechargements/mods/2655-mpgunrunning-in-sp/

[ChiroVette]

Welp, it's on 5mods now: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/script-hook-v

 

Guess it's "unofficially" out. Also the dev-c site crashed.

 

Are you sure that is the new file?

 

I know on 5Mods, it says last updated a few hours ago, BUT I just downloaded it and inside the folder, the ScriptHookV.dll file says that it was "last modified on 04/9/17" Every time I have ever had to download the latest updated version of ScriptHookV, the "last modified" date was always the day it was updated. So it should say "06/22/17," right?

 

I won't be able to check to see if this script works until tonight, but can anyone verify that this is a new version of the file compatible with the latest GTA V opdate?

 

Thanks!

Edited June 22, 2017 by ChiroVette

[MrGTAmodsgerman]

 

Welp, it's on 5mods now: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/script-hook-v

 

Guess it's "unofficially" out. Also the dev-c site crashed.

 

Are you sure that is the new file?

 

I know on 5Mods, it says last updated a few hours ago, BUT I just downloaded it and inside the folder, the ScriptHookV.dll file says that it was "last modified on 04/9/17" Every time I have ever had to download the latest updated version of ScriptHookV, the "last modified" date was always the day it was updated. So it should say "06/22/17," right?

 

I won't be able to check to see if this script works until tonight, but can anyone verify that this is a new version of the file compatible with the latest GTA V opdate?

 

Thanks!

 

My post should answer your main question

http://gtaforums.com/topic/889348-take-two-vs-modding/?p=1069674935

[RemixPL1994]

 

Welp, it's on 5mods now: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/script-hook-v

 

Guess it's "unofficially" out. Also the dev-c site crashed.

 

Are you sure that is the new file?

 

I know on 5Mods, it says last updated a few hours ago, BUT I just downloaded it and inside the folder, the ScriptHookV.dll file says that it was "last modified on 04/9/17" Every time I have ever had to download the latest updated version of ScriptHookV, the "last modified" date was always the day it was updated. So it should say "06/22/17," right?

 

I won't be able to check to see if this script works until tonight, but can anyone verify that this is a new version of the file compatible with the latest GTA V opdate?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Landotel]

SomeOrdinaryGamers uploaded the GTA V modding situation. Word is spreading out.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Landotel

[ACTION GAMER]

 

 

Welp, it's on 5mods now: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/script-hook-v

 

Guess it's "unofficially" out. Also the dev-c site crashed.

 

Are you sure that is the new file?

 

I know on 5Mods, it says last updated a few hours ago, BUT I just downloaded it and inside the folder, the ScriptHookV.dll file says that it was "last modified on 04/9/17" Every time I have ever had to download the latest updated version of ScriptHookV, the "last modified" date was always the day it was updated. So it should say "06/22/17," right?

 

I won't be able to check to see if this script works until tonight, but can anyone verify that this is a new version of the file compatible with the latest GTA V opdate?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

You have the new files please ?

Edited June 22, 2017 by ACTION GAMER

[PatrickJr.]

 

 

 

Welp, it's on 5mods now: https://www.gta5-mods.com/tools/script-hook-v

 

Guess it's "unofficially" out. Also the dev-c site crashed.

 

Are you sure that is the new file?

 

I know on 5Mods, it says last updated a few hours ago, BUT I just downloaded it and inside the folder, the ScriptHookV.dll file says that it was "last modified on 04/9/17" Every time I have ever had to download the latest updated version of ScriptHookV, the "last modified" date was always the day it was updated. So it should say "06/22/17," right?

 

I won't be able to check to see if this script works until tonight, but can anyone verify that this is a new version of the file compatible with the latest GTA V opdate?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

You have the new files please ?

 

 

Check the post, it tells you how to do it.

[ChiroVette]

@PatrickJr., @MRGTAmodsgerman, and @Remnix1994PL, thanks, guys! The file has the correct date on it now. So that seemed to work. Will try the mods tonight!

 

 

I have an older version of a crapload of mods, including OpenIV. Will they still work with the game even though the newer versions may have been taken down because of the CaD?

 

Thanks again guys!

 

Edit: I just checked on my PC Desktop and I only have OpenIV Version 2.8. It looks like the link on the Download page for version 2.9 takes me back to the beginning of this thread, which makes sense since the file had to be taken down. I will sift through this thread, because I think someone said you can still get OpenIV ver. 2.9? Or maybe someone can save me going back over God knows how many pages? lol

Edited June 22, 2017 by ChiroVette

[Gaffa]

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

Nice, where and how though?

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

how? wie?

 

 

 

Now how to get SHV the newest version?

 

First of all, if you get a connection error on the site, so you can't visit, just paste the link on a Facebook post and click then on the link over Facebook. Then the site works.

The next thing is, you need to change the HTML over a website editing plugin. All browers got a default one, i used Firebug on Firefox.

Next thing is, edit the download button and change it to

 

/files/ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip

 

 

 

Now click on the download button and you will get the file

 

Have fun

 

Nice, but for those who use download managers (such as IDM), you can do it another way:

 

(You'll have to forgive where the mouse pointer shows in videos/ gifs - it's been this way for a while with ShareX for some reason, sorry).

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Gaffa™

[MrGTAmodsgerman]

 

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

Nice, where and how though?

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

how? wie?

 

 

 

Now how to get SHV the newest version?

 

First of all, if you get a connection error on the site, so you can't visit, just paste the link on a Facebook post and click then on the link over Facebook. Then the site works.

The next thing is, you need to change the HTML over a website editing plugin. All browers got a default one, i used Firebug on Firefox.

Next thing is, edit the download button and change it to

 

/files/ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip

 

 

 

Now click on the download button and you will get the file

 

Have fun

 

Nice, but for those who use download managers (such as IDM), you can do it another way:

 

 

(You'll have to forgive where the mouse pointer shows in videos/ gifs - it's been this way for a while with ShareX for some reason, sorry).

 

 

 

Nice, never heard that way. I only know download menagers that working compeletly different, so like reading files you cached or that shows your RAR archives.

[K0ol-G-R4P]

Currently number 6 best seller on the STEAM sale.

 

Have to knock it out of the top 10.

[xInfamousRYANx]

People are buying this on sale? STOP SHEEPLE!

[FairlySeeU]

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

Nice, where and how though?

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

how? wie?

 

 

 

Now how to get SHV the newest version?

 

First of all, if you get a connection error on the site, so you can't visit, just paste the link on a Facebook post and click then on the link over Facebook. Then the site works.

The next thing is, you need to change the HTML over a website editing plugin. All browers got a default one, i used Firebug on Firefox.

Next thing is, edit the download button and change it to

 

/files/ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip

 

 

 

Now click on the download button and you will get the file

 

Have fun

 

This doesn't work for me. I'm using chrome and I can't edit the html. I've tried it on Firefox too but I can't edit it there either. This is BS.

[MrGTAmodsgerman]

 

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

Nice, where and how though?

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

how? wie?

 

 

 

Now how to get SHV the newest version?

 

First of all, if you get a connection error on the site, so you can't visit, just paste the link on a Facebook post and click then on the link over Facebook. Then the site works.

The next thing is, you need to change the HTML over a website editing plugin. All browers got a default one, i used Firebug on Firefox.

Next thing is, edit the download button and change it to

 

/files/ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip

 

 

 

Now click on the download button and you will get the file

 

Have fun

 

This doesn't work for me. I'm using chrome and I can't edit the html. I've tried it on Firefox too but I can't edit it there either. This is BS.

 

Chrome > Press F12 > Elements> Select download button > change text Firefox > Right click > Press Q > select the box > change

[FairlySeeU]

 

 

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

Nice, where and how though?

 

 

 

I got the SHV version, nice its no fake he is not lying so simple to get.

how? wie?

 

 

 

Now how to get SHV the newest version?

 

First of all, if you get a connection error on the site, so you can't visit, just paste the link on a Facebook post and click then on the link over Facebook. Then the site works.

The next thing is, you need to change the HTML over a website editing plugin. All browers got a default one, i used Firebug on Firefox.

Next thing is, edit the download button and change it to

 

/files/ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip

 

 

 

Now click on the download button and you will get the file

 

Have fun

 

This doesn't work for me. I'm using chrome and I can't edit the html. I've tried it on Firefox too but I can't edit it there either. This is BS.

 

Chrome > Press F12 > Elements> Select download button > change text Firefox > Right click > Press Q > select the box > change

 

 

Thx it worked. But for me I had to right-click on "download" and select "inspect" and then I had to right-click "ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2.zip" and Edit as HTML.

Edited June 23, 2017 by FairlySeeU

[gandalfthestupid]

It's nice to hear that Scripthook V is unofficially out but I still keep coming back to this thread hoping that there is news on whether or not T2 has finally come to their senses but I already lost hope a while ago I really don't think they'll listen no matter how loud we scream out to them so I haven't played GTA V since Friday I left a negative review on Steam as darkhelmetsb1 that's my Steam name. I uninstalled all the GTA games I had installed which was GTA: VC, GTA: SA, GTA IV and GTA V. So far I have gone back to playing source mods such as GoldenEye Source and Gmod. Also I went back to playing games on my PS2 emulator on my PC. At this point I have left GTA the entire franchise I don't even play online and I don't think I will return unless T2 finally listens to all of us.

[germinus]

I do have to wonder how the author of scripthook is feeling about us effectively "steeling" his work that he created for us in the first place. Don't get me wrong I have downloaded it as well so I am not getting on the moral high ground here but I figured a quick note to the author just to say sorry was in order here... So to the author I am sorry, temptation got the better of me.

 

I bet T2 is looking at this thread and now thinking no honour amongst thieves!

[FlyeThemoon]

 

Niko Bellic Statement

[PatrickJr.]

Removed, I did not want or mean to upset anyone <3

Edited June 23, 2017 by PatrickJr.

[zanesix]

But doesn't he forbid re-uploading files from his site? I think we should start being a bit more cautious here, we already stole an unreleased file from his site, the least people could do is not re-upload it to at least show a little respect to his wishes, especially since we already broke one of them.

[VoodooMods]

Some developers serve modders with cease & desist orders. Some others erect monuments in their honor.

 

Earlier this year, Paul "Bushlurker" Pelosi, a prominent and respected ARMA modder, lost his battle with cancer. A member of the ARMA community then created a monument to honor his memory.

 

Today, ARMA developer Bohemia Interactive released a free map as DLC to celebrate the 16th anniversary of Operation Flashpoint, the ancestor of the ARMA series. And they included that user-created monument in the map as a tribute.

 

Story and pictures here: http://imgur.com/gallery/YcnPc

 

We're not even worth an acknowledgement from Take Two, apparently. However, I'm sure the next GTA will have a scornful remark or a subtly disparaging billboard aimed at us.

[germinus]

I've uploaded the latest Scripthook on my website It's taken straight from dev-c.com both ScriptHookV_1.0.1032.1 and ScriptHookV_1.0.1103.2 are uploaded, enjoy.

It's one thing to promote your website with someone elses work its another to do it with someone elses stolen work... Bad move my friend!

 

I think this sort of thing will make T2 feel justified is their recent actions.

Edited June 23, 2017 by germinus