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Raavi

European Politics Discussion

Recommended Posts

marco6158

Five Star party, neo-fascist? You're confusing them with Lega Nord I guess, they're the ones costantly talking about anti-immigrants and "Italians first".

 

Personally, I think that the tension with the European Union might happen if the right wing coalition wins (Berlusconi with Forza Italia and Salvini with Lega Nord, plus two minor parties) since they're the ones who have always been against the European Union and based a good part of their campaign against immigrants.

 

Berlusconi lost all his credibility, I don't know why people even vote him. Sure as hell he won't win, and if he does, it's only thanks to the coalition with Lega Nord.

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ilovebender.com

Ireland seem to not understand what Brexit is about; they want access to British waters and yet, leaving the EU means they get no access.

I'm in London, and am the first to admit I couldn't care less if Irish Fisheries go under if UK has a hard Brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1217841/brexit-news-uk-ireland-fishing-industry-latest-boris-johnson-free-trade-deal-eu

Why?

Because Ireland's made their bed; they wish to be in the EU; that's up to them, but they rely on British waters, which should be leaving the EU with the rest of Brexit; They complain about EU countries now flocking to Irish waters too...

if Ireland don't like it, they're more than welcome to leave the EU too; but how dare they want access to British waters when these waters are soon to be taken back. The fact that Ireland could suffer as a result of Brexit means nothing to me since it's not my country and never was as the Irish to me are just as alien as the French and the Romanians - They're not UK, so what happens to them isn't my concern.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1212048/brexit-news-fishing-industry-latest-common-fisheries-policy-trade-deal-michael-gove

Michael Gove vows to take Britain's waters out of the Common Fisheries Policy thus protecting UK waters and British fisheries.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1197483/Brexit-news-France-EU-UK-trade-deal-fish-latest-update

Looks like no deal is fine then; Why should UK surrender what it's got to please the EU that it's leaving; no deal Brexit is fine, hands off our water; we'd work years to negotiate with someone else who embraces the idea of Brexit.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Uncle Sikee Atric

Is there anything in the UK that you don't try to blame on someone else?

A small bit of research reveals the UK is the only EU country to sell it's fishing rights to other, interested parties.

https://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2019/03/07/fishing-brexit-uk-fleetwood/

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ilovebender.com
11 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

Is there anything in the UK that you don't try to blame on someone else?

A small bit of research reveals the UK is the only EU country to sell it's fishing rights to other, interested parties.

https://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2019/03/07/fishing-brexit-uk-fleetwood/

Because I regard the EU as backwards, what makes you think I blame it for anything?

I regard UK and America as superior and the EU full of backward countries being backwards with the EU.

 

You think UK wants a deal with the EU so bad it'll surrender its waters?

Is there anything about Brexit you like? (Not that it matters since it's happening despite).

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Uncle Sikee Atric
6 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Because I regard the EU as backwards, what makes you think I blame it for anything?

I regard UK and America as superior and the EU full of backward countries being backwards with the EU.

 

You think UK wants a deal with the EU so bad it'll surrender its waters?

Is there anything about Brexit you like? (Not that it matters since it's happening despite).

I love the fact it's totally shafted the UK, both in terms of political standing and it's plain existence.

 

The only thing Brexit has confirmed is, Boris is the last Prime Minister of the UK, a fitting legacy for future history books.  Especially when all the problems they claim they're fixing with this stupid idea, are plainly the fault of the country itself, not some third party scapegoat.

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Raavi
8 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

I regard UK and America as superior and the EU full of backward countries being backwards with the EU.

 

I mean you can chip at your wallpaper and regard the US what you want till you're blue in the face. Reality is: the EU is superior in most positive metrics. If you want to see what backwards is like, try going to the US and venturing out of the big metropolitan areas in a red state  - you'll encounter some *real* squalid muddy fields.  

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ilovebender.com
4 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

I love the fact it's totally shafted the UK, both in terms of political standing and it's plain existence.

 

The only thing Brexit has confirmed is, Boris is the last Prime Minister of the UK, a fitting legacy for future history books.  Especially when all the problems they claim they're fixing with this stupid idea, are plainly the fault of the country itself, not some third party scapegoat.

45% of people voted SNP this week. 45% voted independence in 2014.

I have news for you; you need at least 50% to do anything.

Isn't it evil though, to relish the break up of the UK - no wonder I regard your EU flag like the Swastika; United Europe hating on America all over again.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Uncle Sikee Atric
3 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

45% of people voted SNP this week. 45% voted independence in 2014.

Then the membership of the EU wasn't on the line.  If they knew what was coming in 2016, the result could have been very different.

 

4 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

I have news for you; you need at least 50% to do anything.

Scotland voted 62% Remain in 2016, but since the country-wide result was 52-48 (a majority that wouldn't change the rules in a trade union  or at a golf club vote BTW), they've been dragged along for the ride and had their wishes ignored ever since.  No wonder the Scots feel bitter.

 

6 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Isn't it evil though, to relish the break up of the UK - no wonder I regard you EU flag like the Swastika; United Europe hating on America all over again.

The EU flag as a swastika?  No wonder the Germans have the nerve to 'big up your leader' in the most fitting way possible.

 

13146453.png

 

Seig Heil from South Of The River, eh?

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ilovebender.com

Scotland face a double betrayal.

 

If they turn their backs on the UK and the EU want noting to do with them; they'd fell betrayed by London and by Brussels.

 

 

Since when was the EU ready to welcome an Independent Scotland?

Scotland would if it wanted to leave the UK and join the EU; have to wait in a queue behind the likes of Albania and like Albania, would have no guarantee of being accepted, especially if Spain veto Scotland's entry into the EU to keep Catalonia from seeking the same in Spain.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Svip

There is no queue for EU membership.  Spain has already said that if London recognises Scotland's independence, they will not block Scottish EU membership.

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Uncle Sikee Atric
1 minute ago, Svip said:

There is no queue for EU membership.  Spain has already said that if London recognises Scotland's independence, they will not block Scottish EU membership.

 

Besides, Holyrood is going through the courts and seeking Supreme Court support, before going for a vote.  Just because the Commons route will be blocked, doesn't mean they don't have options.

 

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ilovebender.com
11 minutes ago, Uncle Sikee Atric said:

Then the membership of the EU wasn't on the line.  If they knew what was coming in 2016, the result could have been very different.

 

Scotland voted 62% Remain in 2016, but since the country-wide result was 52-48 (a majority that wouldn't change the rules in a trade union  or at a golf club vote BTW), they've been dragged along for the ride and had their wishes ignored ever since.  No wonder the Scots feel bitter.

 

The EU flag as a swastika?  No wonder the Germans have the nerve to 'big up your leader' in the most fitting way possible.

 

13146453.png

 

Seig Heil from South Of The River, eh?

You do know the EU was Hitler's peace time plan for a German dominated Europe, well, clearly you don't or you're a National Socialist.

This gentleman even likens the EU to the USSR saying it's an undemocratic bloc of countries that needs to kept in check.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem

You've quoted the Daily Express three times in this conversation.

Your argument is therefore invalid.

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ilovebender.com
Just now, sivispacem said:

You've quoted the Daily Express three times in this conversation.

Your argument is therefore invalid.

Yet you think freedom of expression is the same as freedom of speech...

"I've seen what makes you cheer, your boos mean nothing to me."

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Raavi
5 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Yet you think freedom of expression is the same as freedom of speech...

"I've seen what makes you cheer, your boos mean nothing to me."

 

You do realise that they're basically the same thing, right? The main difference is some countries opt for different terminology. But if we want to get very anal about the wording - speech is one type of expression. Freedom of expression covers all modes of expression. Ergo freedom of expression is the fuller right.

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sivispacem

I think, factually correctly, that many European nations are much freer than the UK. There is literally no disputing that point as it would be akin to arguing white is black.

 

The difference between our two positions is that mine are supported by facts and yours reinforced by dogma. Which goes some way to explaining why I'm a professional and you're a failing male stripper.

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ilovebender.com
15 minutes ago, Raavi said:

 

You do realise that they're basically the same thing, right? The main difference is some countries opt for different terminology. But if we want to get very anal about the wording - speech is one type of expression. Freedom of expression covers all modes of expression. Ergo freedom of expression is the fuller right.

Nope...

 

Freedom of expression means you're free to express what you're allowed to say.

Before Donald Trump, it was illegal in Germany with their freedom of expression to criticise a head of state; Germany changed that law I guess so it didn't arrest everyone who had a crack at Donlad Trump; but because they have no freedom of speech, they are only allowed to say what they're allowed to say.

How is freedom to express what you're allowed to say anyway you want the same as freedom of speech?

 

If UK and America didn't share core values, why does the world have this special relationship between us?

 

I'm not going to lie, if France and Germany and NL and others changed and were more like UK in rights and freedoms like the US is, then I'd see no problem with being closer to them; but as it stands; they're our ideological aliens; and to add insult to injury; they distrust America and seek to topple them; well I say good riddance to that idea.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem

This whole thing boils down to you misunderstanding the difference between "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression".

 

"Freedom of expression" is a collective term encompassing not just free speech, but also freedom of the press, freedom from censorship, religious or sexual representation, et cetera. You're entirely wrong in drawing the distinction you do; if anything, freedom of expression is the more complete of the two in purely technical terms. Speech is simply one form of expression.

 

Take Finland. They refer constitutionally to "freedom of expression" which in your eyes would place them on an interior footing. Yet in all practical ways they have vastly more demonstrable freedom of speech than the UK does. Their hate speech laws are much more relaxed; defamation is restricted to individuals; the only area in which you could realistically argue that Finland is less free in terms of speech is in reference to blasphemy and even that's arguable given we've found plenty of ways to criminalise blasphemous speech under other legislation such as the Public Order Act since we repealed blasphemy and blasphemous libel laws in 2008.

 

Once again, you're clueless.

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ilovebender.com
6 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

This whole thing boils down to you misunderstanding the difference between "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression".

 

"Freedom of expression" is a collective term encompassing not just free speech, but also freedom of the press, freedom from censorship, religious or sexual representation, et cetera. You're entirely wrong in drawing the distinction you do; if anything, freedom of expression is the more complete of the two in purely technical terms. Speech is simply one form of expression.

 

Take Finland. They refer constitutionally to "freedom of expression" which in your eyes would place them on an interior footing. Yet in all practical ways they have vastly more demonstrable freedom of speech than the UK does. Their hate speech laws are much more relaxed; defamation is restricted to individuals; the only area in which you could realistically argue that Finland is less free in terms of speech is in reference to blasphemy and even that's arguable given we've found plenty of ways to criminalise blasphemous speech under other legislation such as the Public Order Act since we repealed blasphemy and blasphemous libel laws in 2008.

 

Once again, you're clueless.

Nope, if Germany could make it illegal to criticise a head of state whilst enjoying freedom of expression, then that is no freedom of speech because Germany unlike UK and US, don't have freedom of speech.

 

I'd argue you're clueless clinging on to the EU in a world where Boris Johnson is talking with Donald Trump about a new trade deal to replace EU First with America First in this country.

 

Also, Finland, that Soviet Hell Hole, why would anyone who doesn't have to be want to be like Finland?

Edited by ilovebender.com

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Raavi
9 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Nope...

 

Freedom of expression means you're free to express what you're allowed to say.

How is freedom to express what you're allowed to say anyway you want the same as freedom of speech?

 

I mean if you're going to argue against decades of legal literature, you should at least provide a source for your assertion? 

 

The technical difference between freedom of speech and expression sees to the modes of expressions covered by the scope of the right. That's it. You are conflating the existence of a right, and the possible limitations that can be put on it by law. 

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sivispacem
2 minutes ago, ilovebender.com said:

Nope, if Germany 

Why the f*ck are you talking about Germany all of a sudden? Why don't you address my actual example.

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ilovebender.com
4 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Why the f*ck are you talking about Germany all of a sudden? Why don't you address my actual example.

Why the f*ck were you talking about Finland since it's not Germany?

 

Did I even mention Finland?

 

Finland's even less free than France or Germany is with their Soviet style alcohol restrictions, f*ck being like Finland if you can help it.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem
1 minute ago, ilovebender.com said:

Why the f*ck were you talking about Finland since it's not Germany?

Because you weren't talking about Germany, you were taking in sweeping generalisations about the EU as a whole. You've just lost sight of your own comments in your rabid, frothing, irrational hatred of Germany.

 

Not really sure what you mean regarding alcohol laws. Objectively I don't see how licensing locations to sell alcohol is less restrictive than centrally managing it's sale, but then I'm not desperately trying to pull something out of the hat here.

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ilovebender.com
7 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

Because you weren't talking about Germany, you were taking in sweeping generalisations about the EU as a whole. You've just lost sight of your own comments in your rabid, frothing, irrational hatred of Germany.

 

Not really sure what you mean regarding alcohol laws. Objectively I don't see how licensing locations to sell alcohol is less restrictive than centrally managing it's sale, but then I'm not desperately trying to pull something out of the hat here.

You don't see me talking about Germany's recent change in the law to allow people to criticise a head of state in Germany since Trump came meaning it's up to Germany what you can and can't say in Germany meaning they have no Freedom of Speech.

Why are you even in here since you're actually not learning anything?

 

Your EU flag demonstrates you're out of touch with 2019/2020 and I bet if you're British, you didn't vote Tory.

 

Hell, you think the EU makes us the same as other countries in the EU, which is very stupid.

Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem

I don't see you talking about anything coherent, because your opinions are a total scattergun of contradictory ideological notions, you have absolutely no basic political comprehension and cannot do anything other than parrot handful of soundbites.

 

Unlike you, I'm intellectually grounded and knowledgeable enough to not be drawn in by dogmatic nationalism. I'm not susceptible to the false notions of British (or indeed American) exceptionalism or delusions of moral supremacy because I'm educated enough to know they're bilge.

 

 

The fact you abandoned the other thread when faced with a wall of facts you couldn't disputed only to continue the same drivel in here speaks volumes. 

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ilovebender.com
24 minutes ago, sivispacem said:

I don't see you talking about anything coherent, because your opinions are a total scattergun of contradictory ideological notions, you have absolutely no basic political comprehension and cannot do anything other than parrot handful of soundbites.

 

Unlike you, I'm intellectually grounded and knowledgeable enough to not be drawn in by dogmatic nationalism. I'm not susceptible to the false notions of British (or indeed American) exceptionalism or delusions of moral supremacy because I'm educated enough to know they're bilge.

...

Yet you fail to see how the EU is made up of countries with suspect pasts pushing in 27 different directions acting like a bloc against freedom. Freedom to Brexit; Freedom to say no to unskilled migrants.

 

You think it's 2015 or something and not 2019; but the facts are;

 

  • Brexit is happening.
  • The Tories are in power.
  • UK has more in common with America than any country in the EU (which is why I'm all for trading with our friends than with our enemies in the hope to become friends).
  • You dismiss WWII and roll out the red carpet for the EU - did it even occur to you that EU countries looking to topple America for global trade was a bad thing?
Edited by ilovebender.com

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sivispacem

That different EU countries have different priorities surprises nobody except you, it seems. And the only nations in the EU27 that have seen consistent declines in personal liberties are those rules by right wing populists governments, such as Hungary and Italy.

 

Despite the myriad of cherry picked examples you have claimed are examples of the illiberality of Germany, they still outrank the UK in all of the personal/individual freedom indices. Germany is empirically freer than the UK; this much is factually indisputable despite your whinging.

 

 

 

I dismiss WWII because it's as relevant to this discussion as the American War of Independence. The fall of the US as the sole superpower is an inevitability.

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Svip

Isn't the story about criticising heads of state in Germany false?  They've been making fun of Erdogan for years, and Turkey has been super upset about it, but Germany has done nothing, because it can do nothing.  Similarly, I do remember during the President Bush years, that there was plenty of German media mocking the US president.  So I haven't seen him give an actual example of illiberality in Germany.

Edited by Svip
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ilovebender.com

I wonder, who will be the next to leave the EU?

Poland?

Italy?

Someone else?

 

Brexit could set a precedent to show others the door in face of the EU lie 'you're better in than out'. 

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Svip

Poland may have to leave.  But I doubt the Polish government will actually go that far.

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