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European Politics Discussion


Raavi
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1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

you're a f*cked up dickhead 

And you think that coming back from a ban hurling insults is... sensible?

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

if you don't delete this offensive post 

You mean your post, right? Gladly.

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

remove this alt. profile of yours

What profile?

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

then I will resist.

And how are you going to "resist", prey tell?

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

If you don't want me to double post, then maybe you shouldn't treat those against the EU as not being able to debate

The f*ck are you on about? 

 

1 hour ago, ilovebender.com said:

you're a f*cking Nazi.

Oh dear.

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4 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

French people think women like being raped.

Given that "French people" includes French women it follows that French women think that women like being raped.  It follows from that any French woman who is in the process of being raped continues to think that women like being raped - or does her opinion suffer a drastic reversal in those terrifying moments?

 

Time you took a long, restful holiday methinks.

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ilovebender.com
On 3/4/2020 at 12:51 PM, sivispacem said:

And you think that coming back from a ban hurling insults is... sensible?

Go to Hell! Like I'm not above resisting your authority - I'd so resist you in a heart beat and make no apologies given the treatment I get for doubting the EU and debating and stating my side you don't respect, why should I respect your authority when I regard it as a form of corruption?

Quote

You mean your post, right? Gladly.

You think Islamophobia is acceptable?

On 2/18/2020 at 4:13 PM, IGLOO WHITE said:

listen to bender talking about islams like theyre his best chums what a discraceful fake tory we should be reducing the number of people who can vote to ensure that only british people of proper breeding and income can women are too emotional to be trusted in politics

and what of it? Got a problem with that @sivispacem

 

You let this slide but not criticism of the EU, because you are @IGLOO WHITE

 

Just to p' you off, I'd marry a Muslim and convert just to see your face if you regard being friends with a Muslim a reason to ostracize. 

The fact that this post is somehow acceptable but saying the EU should close their borders is why this forum is f*cked up.

 

Debate doesn't work when you treat people who oppose the EU like they're not valid; do you know how offensive that is? To say f' the EU then have it removed twice and banned.

F' the EU, close the border, and don't even pretend that this is wrong to say.

 

EU, backwards; history never lies; and the present isn't exactly helping them either with their political declaration or no deal; This is one reason I'm all for no deal; I'm also weary of signing a deal with the EU until the EU make good on their promises to Canada in that EU/Canada Deal; so, there are a couple of reasons for me to be against a deal with the EU. I'm all for an Australian style deal with the EU (there isn't one, it's WTO) if I'm honest; f' the EU.

 

It's bad enough NI had to remain under some customs b/s splitting the UK down the Irish Sea depsite the wishes of NI; don't even think EU should control the rest of the UK; it's just a bunch of Irish people who wish NI was ROI, but they're just a low opportunist people who disrespect NI and the UK. They talk of wanting to be friends with the UK but they also talk of uniting Ireland and taking NI from the UK; They don't even care that NI like being in the UK and hate this Irish backstop that Bojo' (UK PM from 2019 - ) forced on them since he didn't have to listen to them anymore since he crushed Corbynism and Remain in one single election.

Also, if the Irish weren't trouble, we wouldn't even need a GFA (Good Firday Agreement); think about that and then like me regard any one who'd bomb a border like the terrorist they are.

Treat the IRA like ISIS if they flare up against the EU's external border and bomb the H' out of them like any other terrorist.

Edited by ilovebender.com
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Uncle Sikee Atric
10 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Go to Hell! Like I'm not above resisting your authority - I'd so resist you in a heart beat and make no apologies given the treatment I get for doubting the EU and debating and stating my side you don't respect, why should I respect your authority when I regard it as a form of corruption?

 

It's not that you're trying to debate and state your side, it's just you end up descending into an angry tirade of insults, when you discover you're level of knowledge and understanding is severely lacking for D&D.

 

Quote

You think Islamophobia is acceptable?

 

No, it's not, but you seem to think complaining about antisemitism is fine, when there's evidence Islamophobes are actively entering the Tory Party and being caught out by third party investigators.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51709197

 

Quote

 

Just to p' you off, I'd marry a Muslim and convert just to see your face if you regard being friends with a Muslim a reason to ostracize. 

 

You wouldn't do anything that moves you closer to Sadiq Khan politically....

 

Quote

 

The fact that this post is somehow acceptable but saying the EU should close their borders is why this forum is f*cked up.

 

Debate doesn't work when you treat people who oppose the EU like they're not valid; do you know how offensive that is? To say f' the EU then have it removed twice and banned.

F' the EU, close the border, and don't even pretend that this is wrong to say.

 

EU, backwards; history never lies; and the present isn't exactly helping them either with their political declaration or no deal; This is one reason I'm all for no deal; I'm also weary of signing a deal with the EU until the EU make good on their promises to Canada in that EU/Canada Deal; so, there are a couple of reasons for me to be against a deal with the EU. I'm all for an Australian style deal with the EU (there isn't one, it's WTO) if I'm honest; f' the EU.

 

Fine, we know that's your opinion.  Anything new to add, or are you endlessly going round in circles because you cannot find any other possible comment to support the notion that the UK will be crippled within three months of anything that looks like it will end up relying on a discredited and dysfunctional WTO, that's under sustained attack from Trumps' US?

 

Quote

 

It's bad enough NI had to remain under some customs b/s splitting the UK down the Irish Sea depsite the wishes of NI; don't even think EU should control the rest of the UK; it's just a bunch of Irish people who wish NI was ROI, but they're just a low opportunist people who disrespect NI and the UK. They talk of wanting to be friends with the UK but they also talk of uniting Ireland and taking NI from the UK; They don't even care that NI like being in the UK and hate this Irish backstop that Bojo' (UK PM from 2019 - ) forced on them since he didn't have to listen to them anymore since he crushed Corbynism and Remain in one single election.

Also, if the Irish weren't trouble, we wouldn't even need a GFA (Good Firday Agreement); think about that and then like me regard any one who'd bomb a border like the terrorist they are.

Treat the IRA like ISIS if they flare up against the EU's external border and bomb the H' out of them like any other terrorist.

 

The NI situation is because Boris rushed to get his deal, without caring for NI (or anyone else but himself and his reputation).  He proposed and signed off this deal without thinking of the consequences, now he has to live with that.  The penny has dropped with the DUP though and with those linked to Julian Smiths' office (partly why I believe he was sacked as NI Secretary during the reshuffle, even though he managed to get the NI Assembly back into action after three years of going nowhere).

 

NI is in the mess it is because of Westminster.  Stop blaming the EU for everything, it's boring, repetitive and incorrect.

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12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Like I'm not above resisting your authority

How? How do you propose you do that?

 

12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

given the treatment I get for doubting the EU and debating and stating my side you don't respect

I don't respect your contributions because they're incoherent garbage full of obvious factual errors and clesr misunderstandings, your ability to defend them is piss-poor and you routinely just ignore rebuttals or discussion points even when they're highlighted to you multiple times. 

 

And what "treatment"? Have you suddenly started suffering from persecutory delusions? I've been well within my right to permanently ban you on no less than a dozen occasions.

 

12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

You think Islamophobia is acceptable?

What on earth gave you that idea?

 

12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

You let this slide but not criticism of the EU, because you are 

What's your obsession with this 

banned account? If anything I reckon it might be your doing as some kind of attempt to try and deflect from your utterly contemptible failure to represent your views by architecting a fake conspiracy against yourself.

 

12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Just to p' you off, I'd marry a Muslim and convert 

Not sure why you think that'd piss me off, but nowt as queer as folk, and you're as queer as they come.

 

12 hours ago, ilovebender.com said:

Debate doesn't work when you treat people who oppose the EU like they're not valid; 

That presupposes that your contributions are indeed valid, which typically they're not for reasons outlined above. If you want your views to be treated with respect, have the decency to fact-check them before you post, and actually respond to rebuttal. If you think so lowly of your own views that you can't do these simple things, then why should anyone else treat them with anything but contempt?

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  • 3 months later...
Uncle Sikee Atric

As if to demonstrate the power of the EU, the Chinese, by dropping this WTO dispute, have demonstrated they're giving up in this case, and helped the US with their situation as a by-product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-16/not-with-a-bang-china-loses-landmark-wto-dispute-against-eu?fbclid=IwAR1pjYpm1hHZHFT_HYS9Ad7kUxDE5p39X1Qr2WoH-biI9glorQhPLpU_bcQ

 

To prove the point though, the article clearly shows the secrecy in WTO disputes.

 

 

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  • 7 months later...
5 hours ago, make total destroy said:

Right-wing politics [...] are always inherently authoritarian.

 

They aren't. 

Authoritarianism isn't exclusive to a certain political side or people who support certain policies. 

Other than the fact you just made a statement and didn't provide any bases or supporting arguments for this, with that, you also spread the dangerous falsehood that right wing always means authoritarian, which is untrue, and demonizes other people on the right, who are not authoritarian. 

 

Libertarian isn't authoritarian. I don't know what you have to do with your brain to come to the conclusion that libertarian is authoritarian. Maybe you made up your own definitions? 

 

The mainstream center right to right believe is to support liberal democracy, a free market and property rights.

A limited welfare state and limited migration with a differentiated school system and a slow and thoughtful transfer of energy sources.

 

The mainstream center right is in no way more authoritarian than the mainstream center left, although you made it seem like all right wing politics, even libertarians, are authoritarian. Which only makes sense if you actually have a naive black and white view of the world, a simple good vs evil perspective and just need to discredit political groups you don't like with dangerous falsehoods, instead of simply arguing for your ideas in good faith. 

 

Strict obedience to authority instead of personal freedom is the definition of authoritarianism. I know exactly where we had that and instead of a strawman I can present to you a real historical situation. 

 

After WW2 Germany was divided in to west and east Germany. East Germany was the socialist country with no real elections. 

West Germany was mainstream center right and offered freedom of speech, true democratic elections, a free market and a lot more individual freedoms be it school choice, choice of job and university.

If you don't know the history of Germany between 1949 and 1989 and still believe right wing is inherently authoritarian you should maybe take a look at this part of human history.

Edited by Potter145
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Lol West Germany wasn't "centre-right". Though the actual position varied from administration to administration, the majority were Social-Democrat and the rest Christian Democrat, which is only really right-wing on social and moral issues and centre-left everywhere else.

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1 hour ago, sivispacem said:

Lol West Germany wasn't "centre-right". Though the actual position varied from administration to administration, the majority were Social-Democrat and the rest Christian Democrat, which is only really right-wing on social and moral issues and centre-left everywhere else.

 

The majority weren't the social democrats. 

The Christian democrats center right party led the government for 27 years, the social democrats for 13 years. 

 

Besides 1972 (when social democrats got 1% more), the Christian democrats always had the majority with 5 to over 10 percent points more than the social democrats. At the beginning and end of west Germany they also had a Christian democratic chancellor for the majority of the time. 

 

https://www.bundestag.de/parlament/wahlen/ergebnisse_seit1949-244692

 

And while you are right that Christian democrats are center left today, in West Germany they weren't left at all. If you compare west Germany Christian democrats with today's AfD, you would find a lot of common ground. 

Politics really shifted left in germany starting with Merkel in 2005, the CDU becoming indistinguishable from the SPD. But before that, especially in West Germany, they were a center right (CDU) to right (CSU) Party. 

Edited by Potter145
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27 minutes ago, Potter145 said:

The Christian democrats center right party led the government for 27 years

I wasn't referring to the majority party in the ruling coalition, I was referring to the ideological direction of the government judged by their policy positions. 

 

The CDU aren't really a centre-right party. They're centre-right in the context of Germany, sure, but creation of and continued advocacy for the highly regulated Social Market Economy, the Works Council model of unionisation, the raft of social policies introduced under Adenauer and Kohl, and a myriad of other policy decisions made by CDU administrations since 1949 aren't reflective of right-wing ideological positions at all. In general, Christian Democracy is a bit of an oddity when it comes to trying to compare political positions because its relatively small-L liberal in many social aspects, actively promoted economic redistribution and highly regulated market economies, but religious-conservative in others. 

 

27 minutes ago, Potter145 said:

And while you are right that Christian democrats are center left today, in West Germany they weren't left at all. If you compare west Germany Christian democrats with today's AfD, you would find a lot of common ground. 

Where do you think you'd find this "common ground"? Genuinely interested to know. Even in the 50s the CDU were pretty progressive and, bluntly, quite socialist, in both economic and social policy. AfD are national-conservative identitarians who seek to dismantle the welfare state and deregulate the economy. About the only two policy areas I can see a degree of affinity between them are inherent anti-communism and advocacy for traditionalist family and gender roles.

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I would agree other than the fact "highly regulated". In Germany we had a very successfull social market economy in West Germany. But the new governments starting in 1990 really started to regulate even more with our current government introducing massive regulation for the energy and automobile market, more bureaucracy and new taxes like the carbon tax. 

 

I would say compared to today and to today's CDU, the market and government of West Germany had the best balance, and was definitely more free than today. 

I wish we had the social market economy of the 80s, a lot of things worked. 

 

But this discussion would go too deep and there is a lot to unpack. Especially when we are talking about your American perspective and my German perspective. Today's CDU und German economy is very different from 1980s CDU and economy (worse in my opinion). 

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8 minutes ago, Potter145 said:

But the new governments starting in 1990 really started to regulate even more

Even before the 90s the German economy was heavily regulated compared to "traditional" mixed market economies, let alone capitalist ones. Most governments, be they left or right leaning, have instituted legislation around energy, climate change policy and financial services in the last couple of decades. Compare the regulatory environment of Germany and the UK circa 1984 to contrast another contemporary European "conservative" administration and you'll see how relatively restrictive it was. 

 

8 minutes ago, Potter145 said:

your American perspective

I'm many things. American is not one of them.

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The reason the AfD was founded was mainly because the CDU went too far left and abondend many positions it represented in the past, namely the focus on Germany, migration, energy, and even taxation. 

 

If you compare CDU policy Programm from the 1980s to today's AfD program, you would exactly find a lot of common ground, with the difference that AfD would look a lot more progressive. 

Your analysis of CDU 80s and AfD comparison is wrong, with a little bit of truth in it. This shows me you haven't actually researched the AfD Programm and CDU 80s Programm, which is fine because I don't know much about parties from other countries in the 80s as well. 

You are probably also not aware of the AfD in East Germany, that is more to the left of the 80s CDU and the west Germany AfD that is more liberal than 80s CDU. 

That's why it's always delightful when people call the AfD far right and the 80s CDU center left. 

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The AFD was mainly started to voice anti-EZ sentiments but quickly morphed into a far right nationalist club that doesnt shy away from flirting with neo-nazis. 

 

- moved posts into the appropriate thread -

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3 hours ago, Raavi said:

The AFD was mainly started to voice anti-EZ sentiments but quickly morphed into a far right nationalist club that doesnt shy away from flirting with neo-nazis. 

 

- moved posts into the appropriate thread -

Yes, exactly. Of all the "mainstream" right-wing populist parties in Europe, AfD seem to be amongst the most prepared to embraced neo-Nazism, anti-Semitism and most of the rest of the less savoury facets of far right wing ideological thought

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Maybe Sverigedemokraterna have AfD beat on that front.  Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark is more this classic idea of a left-wing social/economical right-wing values/immigration party, that neither SD nor AfD really reaches in any significant way.

 

Comparing a current party's programme to another party's programme several decades ago also tells you nothing about either party, but rather how the world has moved on.  Comparing the Tories to the Mountain in the 1790s France would make the British Conservative Party seem extremely progressive, but it only reveals how much has happened in those two centuries.

 

In the 1980s, most of the West was ruled by neoliberalconservative governments, the likes of Thatcher and Reagan, and in comparison, West Germany seemed significantly left-wing.  Figures like Willy Brandt, even if he was only chancellor for five years, had significant impact on West Germany in the following decade, and into the 1980s, leaving West German foreign policy at odds with British and American policies.

 

There are numerous reasons, but it is among the reasons why pegging the British Pound to the D-mark was highly controversial.  And probably also among the reasons Thatcher was against German reunification.

Edited by Svip
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