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Johnny Spaz

Checkpoints in missions.... Yes or No?

checkpoints in missions  

95 members have voted

  1. 1. Should there be checkpoints in missions?

    • Yes
    • No
    • Yes. But they shouldn't be so used as frequently like in GTA V


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Racecarlock
29 minutes ago, Lioshenka said:

In a few words: they are badly designed.

 

In slightly more words (here I will be talking about GTA 4, GTA 5 and Mafia 3): the games are designed around auto-saving, so turning it off, for instance, means that you have to drive across the whole map to get to the saving point. If you have a particularly challenging mission the last thing you want is to accidentally die from crashing into a kerb or something. Turning auto-save option off should alter the gameplay e.g. provide the ability to purchase alternative houses where one can save or increase out senses e.g. notice the enemies from further away (see point 3 below).

 

Second reason (which particularly applies to Mafia 3) is that the mechanics behind it isn't clear. I want to have fun, I want to have a police chase and try out various things. Problem is, how can I be sure that after I run out of ammo, crash my custom vehicle and get killed by the police the game doesn't save, erasing my previous save? I'll then have to start all over again with no money, ammo and cars. This basically means that I haven't done anything that isn't story related in the game out of fear of screwing it up.

 

Third reason is that it ruins the experience to some extend. You are creeping down an alleyway, and all of a sudden a save icon appears. It's obvious that there's someone waiting for you around the corner now. It takes away the surprise an unpredictability of some very interesting scripted events. I can see the point of it, but I don't think it's the right approach.

 

Fourth reason is that I don't trust the computers. it's all nice and well, until that one thing that makes you pull your hair out. You can bet that the Windows backup will quietly fail when you most need it, and just like that the auto-saving is unpredictable and annoying. What would be ideal if the game actually asked you every time "Hey, do you want me to save now?". This would act as a manual override on the modern Volvos for their automatic gearbox. Not having control over the process and not understanding how it works means that I will avoid it (e.g. turn it off even if it is useful and beneficial to me).

 

Fifth reason is not being able to have 7 different saves. There's only one, most recent one meaning you can't re-play a previous mission if you mess up or save in various locations for modding or machinima purposes.

 

If there was no way to turn it off in GTA 4/5 I probably would have hated them even more. The only reason I tolerate it in Mafia is because it's so damn good, and it sort of is not a huge price to pay to enjoy the atmosphere. If I could turn it off I would though.

 

I have to be honest, GTA 5 had it done not too bad actually allowing you to save anywhere from your phone. It sort of acts as that manual override that I talked about, but I would still prefer more locations where I can save rather than being able to save anywhere. It takes away the challenge.

Hang on, what challenge does the phone saving take away? Having to drive back to your safe house every time you want to save? I wouldn't call that a challenge, more of a minor and unnecessary inconvenience.

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Algonquin Assassin
34 minutes ago, Racecarlock said:

Hang on, what challenge does the phone saving take away? Having to drive back to your safe house every time you want to save? I wouldn't call that a challenge, more of a minor and unnecessary inconvenience.

Yeah. Having a bazillion safe houses in San Andreas didn’t make it more challenging. There’s nothing wrong with GTA V’s phone saving and having the ability to literally save anywhere is neat.

 

But back to the topic of the thread. I don’t see any reason to remove checkpoints entirely, but perhaps they should be scaled back and reserved mostly for longer missions that warrant them. A mission that only takes a couple of minutes to complete doesn’t need checkpoints.

 

I don’t get why some people have this “I hate everything that’s new” mentality though. It would be like buying a new car and asking the manufacturer to strip out the air conditioning, power steering, ABS etc because cars didn’t have that back in the “good ole days”.

 

There’s a difference between “challenge” and being a nuisance and I think some people genuinely can’t tell the difference between the two.

Edited by Algonquin Assassin
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Racecarlock
1 hour ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

Yeah. Having a bazillion safe houses in San Andreas didn’t make it more challenging. There’s nothing wrong with GTA V’s phone saving and having the ability to literally save anywhere is neat.

 

But back to the topic of the thread. I don’t see any reason to remove checkpoints entirely, but perhaps they should be scaled back and reserved mostly for longer missions that warrant them. A mission that only takes a couple of minutes to complete doesn’t need checkpoints.

 

I don’t get why some people have this “I hate everything that’s new” mentality though. It would be like buying a new car and asking the manufacturer to strip out the air conditioning, power steering, ABS etc because cars didn’t have that back in the “good ole days”.

 

There’s a difference between “challenge” and being a nuisance and I think some people genuinely can’t tell the difference between the two.

What if people could choose the amount of checkpoints in a mission with the lowest level being no checkpoints and the highest level including the skip function, but you get some kind of cash bonus for choosing fewer checkpoints? That would satisfy everyone.

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Lioshenka
19 hours ago, Racecarlock said:

Hang on, what challenge does the phone saving take away? Having to drive back to your safe house every time you want to save? I wouldn't call that a challenge, more of a minor and unnecessary inconvenience.

If a game is designed like crap where you only have one save house then yes, it's an inconvenience to drive home for 10 minutes real time. When on another hand you have the ability to purchase multiple saving locations - like VC and SA - it's a natural part of the process.

 

If we are going down this route then I want to be able to save at any point during the mission. Why not? If the only purpose of the game is to beat it and not enjoy the time you spent playing it then I'll be saving after each bullet shot.

 

19 hours ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

I don’t get why some people have this “I hate everything that’s new” mentality though. It would be like buying a new car and asking the manufacturer to strip out the air conditioning, power steering, ABS etc because cars didn’t have that back in the “good ole days”.

There's a difference in marketing though. With cars the manufacturers literally shout it your face that the car has an automatic gearbox, LCD touch screen panel, runs on electricity and can not be fixed anywhere but the specialist garage 50 miles away. It was a no brainer for me to buy an old car, because at the end of the day the manufacturers made the features of their products very clear.

 

With the games, at least with GTA 5, R* kept quiet about most of the changes, or only gave away very basic details meaning that you don't know anything about the game until you buy it. In fact, I don't think the Warehouse mentions any of the new features apart from the game synopsis.

 

If I really wanted to buy a car I can easily compare different makes and pick the one that has an LCD panel, but runs on petrol for instance. With the games it's a gamble, because the game companies don't usually tell you if the game has auto health re-generation or auto-saving features, and if they do, they don't tell you anything about them.

 

When faced with a gamble I would rather reject the whole idea of it then take my chances on purchasing something that's going to be a waste of money for me. I don't reject "everything that's new", I reject everything that's new and rubbish, but is being sold to us an an improvement.

 

I don't hate On-line because it was supposed to be "two game for the price of one" that you can play with people around the world and win achievements and take part in races. I hate it for being a reason of a scrapped single player extension, rushed and poorly (in places) written main story, re-launch of the same game over and over again over the past 10 years, and for being a completely over the top slow and undocumented bastard game that it is.

Edited by Lioshenka

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Algonquin Assassin
2 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

With the games it's a gamble, because the game companies don't usually tell you if the game has auto health re-generation or auto-saving features, and if they do, they don't tell you anything about them.

 

Basically every game I've ever bought when I boot it up has a "this game contains autosave, please don't turn off your console when X icon appears on screen" disclaimer or something to that extent.

 

Do you even pay attention to these finer details? Because it sounds like you don't honestly. 

 

 

Edited by Algonquin Assassin
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DexMacLeod
4 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

If we are going down this route then I want to be able to save at any point during the mission. Why not? If the only purpose of the game is to beat it and not enjoy the time you spent playing it then I'll be saving after each bullet shot.

Different people enjoy different things, though. Me personally, I don't think I'd get much enjoyment out of having to travel somewhere to save after every time I've done something meaningful. That would take me out of the game and ruin the pacing for me. It doesn't really matter how many safehouses they give us.

 

Same with mission checkpoints. GTA missions are usually broken up into phases. If phase one is tailing a car to a location and phase 2 is a shootout tailing the guy a second time because I died in the shootout isn't going to make the game more fun or challenging.

 

2 hours ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

Basically every game I've ever bought when I boot it up has a "this game contains autosave, please don't turn off your console when X icon appears on screen" disclaimer or something to that extent.

 

Do you even pay attention to these finer details? Because it sounds like you don't honestly. 

He's talking about before you buy the game. They don't usually tell you that sort of stuff. It's a valid point.

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Algonquin Assassin
7 minutes ago, DexMacLeod said:

He's talking about before you buy the game. They don't usually tell you that sort of stuff. It's a valid point.

But why?

 

I assume devs don’t go over this sort stuff before a game’s release because it’s so common place and not that important in the grand scheme of things.
 

It shouldn’t need to be spelled out and like I said most games come with a disclaimer when they’re first booted up if they have some kind of auto save function anyway.

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DexMacLeod
12 minutes ago, Algonquin Assassin said:

But why?

 

I assume devs don’t go over this sort stuff before a game’s release because it’s so common place and not that important in the grand scheme of things.
 

It shouldn’t need to be spelled out and like I said most games come with a disclaimer when they’re first booted up if they have some kind of auto save function anyway.

Even though most games nowadays have an autosave function they don't all work the same way. Some games have autosave checkpoints, some games register that you've accomplished something and autosaves, some games just randomly autosave while you're out exploring the world, and some do all of those things. It's not a big deal to me but I also wouldn't mind a little more transparency from the developer.

 

Either way, he was using it to counter your buying a car comparison. If a car's A/C or power steering turned on and off on their own you'd wanna know how frequently it happens and if it was something you could adjust before you buy the car.

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Algonquin Assassin
3 hours ago, DexMacLeod said:

Even though most games nowadays have an autosave function they don't all work the same way. Some games have autosave checkpoints, some games register that you've accomplished something and autosaves, some games just randomly autosave while you're out exploring the world, and some do all of those things. It's not a big deal to me but I also wouldn't mind a little more transparency from the developer.

 

Either way, he was using it to counter your buying a car comparison. If a car's A/C or power steering turned on and off on their own you'd wanna know how frequently it happens and if it was something you could adjust before you buy the car.

It’s not exactly rocket science though to figure out.

 

I don’t expect a dev to write an essay before the game’s release explaining how it works down to every nut and bolt. 
 

I would expect more clarity from a more substantial feature, but not a bog standard mechanic like auto-saving. I’m aware it works differently depending on the game, but for open world games atleast 9 times out 10 it works the same way and that’s it’ll only auto-save after completing missions and whatnot.

 

I knew that from the first day I played GTA IV, but you’re right that it’s not really a big deal especially when it can be turned off. Some games don’t even have an option for both. Mafia III’s saving system for example is retarded IMO because it lacks a manual save option and only has ONE save slot so if you wanted to start another game, but didn’t want to lose your current one then you’re screwed and keep in mind this game out in 2016 yet it lacks saving functionality that games from 1996 had lol.

 

Edited by Algonquin Assassin

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Racecarlock
22 hours ago, Lioshenka said:

If a game is designed like crap where you only have one save house then yes, it's an inconvenience to drive home for 10 minutes real time. When on another hand you have the ability to purchase multiple saving locations - like VC and SA - it's a natural part of the process.

 

If we are going down this route then I want to be able to save at any point during the mission. Why not? If the only purpose of the game is to beat it and not enjoy the time you spent playing it then I'll be saving after each bullet shot.

 

 

This objection is getting more and more nonsensical. The safe houses thing kind of makes sense, but the whole opposition to quick saving consists of "What if it went to this extreme scenario that likely wouldn't happen happened?". Being able to save anywhere in the game doesn't lead to an "I want to beat it and not enjoy my time" mentality in... any human I can think of. And that whole "Save between every bullet" scenario sounds like something concocted by an alien that somewhat understands human behavior but still can't grasp the subtleties.

 

Sure, there's lots of scenery to enjoy on the way back to a safe house, but being able to save on your phone prevents nobody from deciding to enjoy that scenery on their own time. Or for that matter, the side missions, the vehicles, or the music.

 

I mean, you played GTA V, right? So let me ask you, did the presence of quick save make you skip past all the scenery and try to beat the game as fast as possible without enjoying it?

Edited by Racecarlock

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Lioshenka
6 hours ago, Racecarlock said:

I mean, you played GTA V, right? So let me ask you, did the presence of quick save make you skip past all the scenery and try to beat the game as fast as possible without enjoying it?

I didn't but only because I really, really disliked GTA 5 scenery - it was all predominantly wasteland with a few trees here and there :p The overall game design put me off entirely from enjoying the game world, but that's a discussion for another topic. As I said, GTA 5 actually did it fairly well allowing you to disable the auto-saving, but still allowing you to save anywhere if you wanted to. I am more than happy for this to stay, because it doesn't impact how you want to play the game, and how I want to play it.

 

I still believe that disabling auto-saving should impact the gameplay. I used the phone saving option but only because it meant not driving to LS every time, along the same and only road. No reason why I shouldn't be able to save in my own, or the other protagonists' properties.

Edited by Lioshenka

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Lioshenka
On 11/1/2020 at 11:59 PM, Algonquin Assassin said:

Do you even pay attention to these finer details? Because it sounds like you don't honestly. 

But I've already bought the game (and at this point I usually head over to the settings and disable it). I think the problem with GTA and Rockstar is that they are so incredibly secretive about it. The other game developers seem to be much more open about it - I purchased Mafia 2 and Mafia 3 and didn't purchase Just Cause upon playing the demo, because playing them helped me to evaluate the games and see for myself what I liked about them, and what I didn't. Say what you want about these companies, but it's seems a fair and honest approach. I just don't get it why R* can't do the same with their massive budgets.

 

Being a long time GTA fan I bought GTA 4 and 5 out of habit, really - and having been excited by the trailers. I guess my burning hatred towards the new-era features in GTAs stem not from the fact that I don't like them, but because I paid for them, and didn't get the product I expected, that I would consider to be worth it's price. I mean, I don't bash RDR 1 and 2, I simply don't buy them. And there are things I don't like about the Mafia series, but I'm not going to be that vocal about those because I was aware of those prior to buying.

 

I suppose it just happened to be that the older GTAs coincidentally ticked all of the boxes for me even without me playing them prior to purchase, and all good things come to an end.

Edited by Lioshenka

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KingAJ032304
On 10/29/2020 at 9:27 PM, Lioshenka said:

No.

 

Although technically, I would want the last option, "Not as often as in V", but basically, I only want it like it was in SA e.g. once in the whole bloody game. So No is probably better way to describe it.

 

They were needed in V, because the game was designed to be impossible without them (e.g. driving across the whole damn map only to get killed again in some very linear mission that you can only accomplish in the R* approved way). If R* fired their development team and hired new fresh mission designers then I am sure the checkpoints could have been avoided and create more challenging missions.

 

Can't stand all that fancy new era crap like auto-saving, mission checkpoints, auto re-generation of health, background music in missions. Runs the game for me - unless the game is done very, very well - but with the amount of crap that's produced yearly I wouldn't count on that.

No. If you get killed you need to buy a new game. None of that fantasy re-load bullcrap.

There was literally nothing wrong with auto saving. 

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