Apocalypse Now (Kickstarter)

[CallMeGarrett]

Apocalypse Now is an authorized game adaptation of the movie with the same name from key team members of titles such as Fallout New Vegas, Wasteland 2, Far Cry, and a slew of RPGs.

 

Apocalypse Now Kickstarter Link

 

I'm surprised that more people haven't talked about it considering the name attached to it and the consent of Francis Ford Coppola. Thoughts on the game? Are you supporting it? Why or why not?

Edited January 28, 2017 by PhoGarrett

[RogerWho]

That certainly is interesting. My feelings are mixed at the moment.

 

On one hand I'd really love a real Vietnam war game, especially one with a similar depiction to the conflict like the best movies (Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon etc.) - i.e. show the insanity, the cruelty on both sides, basically how ugly it was.

 

The Vietnam War really needs a game like that. Basically, a game that would be to that conflict and those movies like COD4 was for the modern war / Black Hawk Down.

 

And it doesn't necessarily need to be a shooter either. After all, Spec Ops The Line already perfected the idea (also based on the Heart of Darkness novel, like Apocalypse Now). An RPG sounds like a smart idea, of course it depends on how exactly it would be implemented. But some moral (or immoral) choices and dialog trees with the ability to create an insane character sounds like something that would fit.

 

On the other hand... A movie game. A movie director's approval really doesn't mean much when videogames are concerned, honestly. True, we've had some great games based on movies that were released a long time before (i.e. GoldenEye, Riddick etc.) so it's not the same like movie tie-ins. Still, hard to say how it can come out, especially since from the introduction it seems they try to stick very closely to the movie. I don't know if that's ever been done with success.

 

Well hopefully it'll turn out well.

[Claude4Catalina]

Will I buy it if it reaches its goal and gets funded? Sure.

Will I fund it? Nope.

 

They talk of showing respect etc towards those who served in Vietnam yet decide to use Apocalypse Now as a base, don't get me wrong it was a great piece of cinema, but as far as an accurate portrayal of the war...no chance. Why not take it back to a very simple shooter, where objectives are difficult to take, you complete missions by suppressing the enemy and counting bodies after, taking orders to burn down a village from a fresh Lieutenant, who has misunderstood orders from a Captain, who is taking orders from a glory hound Lieutenant Colonel? Actively show the war's real misgivings, rather than paint the entire Vietnamese civilian population as lackeys of a batsh*t crazy advisor-turned war lord, show the breakdown in the chain of command from General to Private First Class, and how the infantry would bear the brunt of the bloodshed. If you ask me they're taking an interesting if slightly inaccurate piece of cinema and believing it to be gospel, sure Tony Poe was a real guy granted, but all I can see happening is a whole bunch of surviving veterans, who the developers said they wanted to pay respects to, will look at their grandchildren playing the game and and think "wow my efforts in that f*cking rice paddy in the mid sixties have really been trivialised."

[D9fred95]

It's been said by one of the devs that they've thought about including XP for finding ways out of situations without violence. Not too much XP or even none at all for fighting as you'd usually do in these types of games. That's a fairly interesting angle, it'd encourage playing in a more smart approach rather than the "Hoorah" approach CoD uses.

Edited January 28, 2017 by D9fred95

[RogerWho]

"wow my efforts in that f*cking rice paddy in the mid sixties have really been trivialised."

While I agree that the Vietnam war deserves a good game and AN may be a bit of an odd choice to adapt to a game (which may or may not turn out well), I don't see how your thoughts about respect etc. apply only to the game and not the movie itself.

 

I'm also not sure if a 'simple shooter' is the best formula to depict the Vietnam war. Of course I've never been in that war but the veterans (at least the Americans) tended to describe the experience as most of the time it was just boredom, crazyness, heat, fear, leaches and that stuff. Of course no such experience is universal and in a way all this applies to all wars but there's a reason why the Vietnam war in particular tended to be depicted that way.

 

Mind you, a lot of these movies were being made while the war was still on, in fact often directly in the war areas. So while I'm somewhat doubtful how well can AN be directly reinterpreted in game form, the source material is definitely pretty solid.

[Claude4Catalina]

I'm also not sure if a 'simple shooter' is the best formula to depict the Vietnam war. Of course I've never been in that war but the veterans (at least the Americans) tended to describe the experience as most of the time it was just boredom, crazyness, heat, fear, leaches and that stuff. Of course no such experience is universal and in a way all this applies to all wars but there's a reason why the Vietnam war in particular tended to be depicted that way.

 

I'm using "they" as a term for a theoretical team of developers who aim to create a game that decent represents the Vietnam War from a boots on the ground American perspective, I believe they could do at least the infantry justice by having three intertwining protagonists, more akin to the TV series The Pacific rather than any other piece of media, one being an experienced Marine Lance Corporal whom is often a point man on patrols with a recon squad attached to a rifle company, his campaign would be a bit like LA Noire in some ways; look for clues, move carefully, be more judicious when it comes to situations, interspersed with brief firefights and calling down air strikes on enemy positions. This is where the 'simple shooter' would come into play, as you'd always be holding an M16, but letting off a few shots at some bent grass blades would be a fatal mistake that could bring an entire platoon of Viet Cong or NVA on the squad's asses. In other words make the player think before pulling the trigger. You've just disabled three well placed booby traps, so should you wait it out, move slow and get into position to hammer the enemy from above.

 

The second protagonist would be a tanker of any service, Army could be justified as there were instances of joint Army-USMC ops, one of which could've resulted from intel gathered by the above mentioned recon squad. The tank missions would be a bit more in line with a simple shooter, only with restrictions; limited ammo AND movement, in this instance you'd technically be controlling the tank crew rather than an individual crew member, but you'd got to make sure you don't expend all your ammo on one engagement, and be on the look out for dangerous terrain, on top of that there would be the more obvious worry of enemies armed with B-2's and other anti tank weapons.

 

The third protagonist would be a Navy Corpsman attached to a platoon in the same rifle company as the Marine recon squad, this would also be similar to a 'simple shooter' but with another twist; you're not doing the shooting for the most part. A fresh replacement on the joint Army-USMC operation as mentioned, your job would be to tend to the wounded, starting off with bandaging wounds, administering morphine where appropriate, not dosing up wounded PFC's until they succumb to an overdose, ending with the fighting at Hue during 1968, first off involved in the house to house fighting and having the use a weapon due to the close quarters nature of the battle, ending with running a triage due to the extreme lack of manpower and sheer attrition suffered during Tet.

 

All three characters would be in some ways autonomous, farm boys and inner city kids alike, doing their duty, no romanticised barrel chested Major's leading squads to assault a hill and claiming it for the good of mom, pop and apple pie, just people caught up in a war that would soon be remembered and belittled by some as a police action participated in by heroin addled baby killers.

 

You don't have to be behind the trigger to see the horrors of war, and you certainly don't have to base a game off a highly fictionalised movie that in turn was based on a novel.

[RogerWho]

Okay, but my point is that if that's how you see it, then why do you dislike this idea for a game but don't seem to be that critical of the movie beyond that it's fictionalized.

 

There was supposed to be a game based on the battle of Fallujah which was supposed to be kind of a documentary. There was an outcry that it would 'trivialize' the battle, while nobody had the same problem with movies and documentaries depicting the same. So this seems like a similar argument.

 

But anyway, again I've not been in that (or any other) war but I think there's a good reason why the highest rated Vietnam war movies don't show much of combat and more of the surreal psychological impact. The Deer Hunter for example, contains only very little of the war itself and yet it's one of the most powerful war movies.

 

(The same can be said about other wars as well. One of my favorite war movies is The bridge over the river Kwai, which also has very little combat in it.)

 

Now, it would be cool if the Vietnam war was explored in games from all sides (including Vietcong), but if we get only one game or so, then I think concentrating on these aspects is fine.

 

Of course the question remain how well can this stuff be 'gamified', but that's up to the developers. I would hazard a guess and say that making a shooter that also tries to explore these kinds horrors may be ineffective. Yes, Spec Ops: The Line pulled it off amazingly but it did that by subverting the expectations and I don't think you can do that again so soon. Games like COD4 and Far Cry 2 also had similar elements but almost nobody talks about that as they were drowned in the 'good game'.

[Claude4Catalina]

Okay, but my point is that if that's how you see it, then why do you dislike this idea for a game but don't seem to be that critical of the movie beyond that it's fictionalized.

 

I've not explicitly stated my lack of taste for the movie either, which I hold in a similar regard as I do the idea of the game. But the movie is done, and considering hindsight is rose tinted, I can look at the movie and see that yeah its a good piece of cinema, as in its entertaining sure, but would you use it to introduce someone to the nitty gritty of Vietnam if they were a fresh slate wanting to learn about it? f*ck no, because it shows the very extreme lengths of the war which makes it easy for a fresh slate to misunderstand as being the norm. So to paraphrase the developers in the Kickstarter video; if they want to pay respects to those who served, why make an example out of Tony Poe and CIA spooks? I'm not denying in any way that the CIA played a huge part in Vietnam, as well as the Cold War, but they're not the best examples to show.

 

My criticism is focused mainly on the game because of how they intend to portray the war as if Colonel Kurtz and Captain Willard were typecasts for CIA spooks and a US Army officer. If they had said "we wanna do it cause it looks cool" then I'd have still be dubious but would have held back my reservations; however they took the whole "show it for how it really was" path, talking about paying respect and showing some dignity to the war...and then using a heavily fictionalised story set in the backdrop of Vietnam. Makes no sense to me.

[LincolnClay]

While I LOVE the movie, really...really love it for its damn near accurate representation of the bloody war that was the Vietnam War, I don't have much right now. I can't help financially, but I'm down to help any other way I can with this project.

 

Edit: I don't even know if I can contact these guys...

Edited January 29, 2017 by TheGamingPr025

[RogerWho]

would you use it to introduce someone to the nitty gritty of Vietnam if they were a fresh slate wanting to learn about it? f*ck no, because it shows the very extreme lengths of the war which makes it easy for a fresh slate to misunderstand as being the norm.

Well no, but that's not even the purpose either. It's not like EVERY war movie has to be a documentary.

 

Take Three Kings. It's a really oddball comedy about the Persian Gulf war and I love it to bits, but it's no denial that it is far from being realistic. Jarhead is in my opinion amazing yet I've also seen it being criticized for some unrealistic depictions.

 

On the other hand, actual members of the US armed forces seem to adore Black Hawk Down for the realism, while the rest of the world generally finds it rather distasteful for all the American hurrah patriotism.

 

There are actually only a couple movies which managed to bake that particular cake and eat it too. The Hurt Locker comes to mind. Now, a Vietnam war movie and game done in that style would be great. But lacking that, I'm fine if there are different media looking on the thing from many different angles, including heavily fictionalized (as long as it's tasteful).

 

I mean, hopefully we will get more and different Vietnam war games anyway.

 

Let's wait and see how this one goes.

Edited January 29, 2017 by RogerWho

[CallMeGarrett]

While I LOVE the movie, really...really love it for its damn near accurate representation of the bloody war that was the Vietnam War, I don't have much right now. I can't help financially, but I'm down to help any other way I can with this project.

 

Edit: I don't even know if I can contact these guys...

I mean, you could only donate a dollar if you really wanted to.

[Claude4Catalina]

 

would you use it to introduce someone to the nitty gritty of Vietnam if they were a fresh slate wanting to learn about it? f*ck no, because it shows the very extreme lengths of the war which makes it easy for a fresh slate to misunderstand as being the norm.

Well no, but that's not even the purpose either. It's not like EVERY war movie has to be a documentary.

 

My concern is that the game will tarnish the already beaten legacy of Vietnam, if they wanna show it how it was, then do infantry. If they wanna pay respect and show some dignity, then do infantry. It feels to me that the developers had a solution and were looking for a problem; they wanted to make a survival horror game and chose to base it on Apocalypse Now, rather than want to do the war and it's participants any justice and show the day-by-day mind numbing boredom interspersed with fleeting moments of combat, they had their premise for a game and have wrapped it around an already established story that was used Vietnam as a backdrop. Which is fine, until they started to act like they're doing a civic and patriotic duty and treating Apocalypse Now like the bible of the average serviceman in Vietnam. Like I say, the whole survival horror is fine by me, as long as they make it very clear its a work of fiction very loosely based on true events, rather than a mantra.

 

 

I mean, hopefully we will get more and different Vietnam war games anyway.

 

I'll drink to that mate.

[Leftist Bastard]

Eh. I'm not interested in a direct adaptation, developers taking the source material and making something new out of it like Spec Ops: The Line seems like a better use of time. Apocalypse Now has potential as a video game due to interactivity but I certainly don't know how they'd do it justice, not on Kickstarter at least.

[CallMeGarrett]

Eh. I'm not interested in a direct adaptation, developers taking the source material and making something new out of it like Spec Ops: The Line seems like a better use of time. Apocalypse Now has potential as a video game due to interactivity but I certainly don't know how they'd do it justice, not on Kickstarter at least.

From the video, they said if they went to a major publishing studio, they'd make the devs have it be Call of Duty Black Ops 1.5.

[Leftist Bastard]

 

Eh. I'm not interested in a direct adaptation, developers taking the source material and making something new out of it like Spec Ops: The Line seems like a better use of time. Apocalypse Now has potential as a video game due to interactivity but I certainly don't know how they'd do it justice, not on Kickstarter at least.

From the video, they said if they went to a major publishing studio, they'd make the devs have it be Call of Duty Black Ops 1.5.

 

I don't know. I'm sure there would be a studio willing to give this a shot while giving the devs creative freedom. Apocalypse Now is a pretty well known, well loved movie and as a direct adaptation they already have a guaranteed consumer base you would have to worry about with a new IP like the aforementioned excellent Spec Ops The Line.

 

Can you really see this game being everything the [very talented] people working on this game envision, for just 900k?

[RogerWho]

My concern is that the game will tarnish the already beaten legacy of Vietnam, if they wanna show it how it was, then do infantry. If they wanna pay respect and show some dignity, then do infantry.

Now, I know you mean that in context of what the developers are saying and in context of the American involvement, but it's still a bit of an odd thing to say, honestly. In a conflict that took almost 20 years, divided the whole world and directly affected millions of people, who can say what is the best way to pay respect to the conflict?

 

Even if we only consider the US side, there are still a lot of other stories that can be told which can still be told by fictional media, sometimes with the result seemingly being pretty much the opposite of the original idea.

 

Take Rambo for example - that movie's biggest legacy is the genre of mindless action flicks, but the original story is about a war vetaran unable to survive in a 'normal' world. And even the movie itself depicts it very well actually; if the sequels didn't go all silly and bombastic, the name would be probably more synonymous with the psychological drama rather than the action.

 

Or Top Gun. A hyper-patriotic action flick with may seem to have no base, but its roots lie in how the US Air Force was being savaged by the enemy in the Vietnam war because they just didn't have the training, so that lead to the creation of the modern USAF.

 

There are interesting stories all around. Hard to say what really is the legacy of the Vietnam war; someone said (I think it was a war reporter, I need to find that quote) that it's impossible to truly depict the Vietnam war properly in a movie; hence why all those famous movies concentrated on the other aspects or went for the surreality. After all, Apocalypse Now is certainly not meant to be taken literally.

[Claude4Catalina]

I maintain my point that it seems the developers have wanted to make a survival horror game and watched Apocalypse Now, then thought "yeah we can use it as a base for our ideas" rather than "lets try and make a decent game about Vietnam" and then threw in some faux-patriotism to try and appease those with reservations. I think they could show a much better story through the eyes of an infantryman than some special ops bullsh*t, Colonel-turned-Sitting Bull assassination mission. You can hold on to your high hopes, but I'm sceptical of the effect this will have on the veteran community, after all, they are the ones who should be listened to when it comes to this project, not us gimpy gamers/armchair historians.

[RogerWho]

Well, let's see how it turns up. Too many things can go wrong, but it can also go right, so who knows *shrug*

[Tchuck]

There already is a great adaptation of it in the form of Spec Ops: The Line, a very underrated gem of a game.

 

For this, like the guy above, I'll buy when it's out and reviews are good. I never fund digital game projects cause there's no way of knowing if it'll be good or not, nor if it will be delivered or not.

[Pat]

I never donate to Kickstarter/Gofundme/etc projects out of principle, but if I was ever going to, it would be this one. New Vegas is in my top three games of all time (possibly in the #1 spot, even) and I attribute a lot of the things that game did right to Sawyer. Coupling that with the fact that they've clearly already made a lot of progress with this project before even starting this campaign, I have very high hopes for this and I'm eager to see it come to fruition.

[Mister Pink]

I maintain my point that it seems the developers have wanted to make a survival horror game and watched Apocalypse Now, then thought "yeah we can use it as a base for our ideas" rather than "lets try and make a decent game about Vietnam" and then threw in some faux-patriotism to try and appease those with reservations. I think they could show a much better story through the eyes of an infantryman than some special ops bullsh*t, Colonel-turned-Sitting Bull assassination mission. You can hold on to your high hopes, but I'm sceptical of the effect this will have on the veteran community, after all, they are the ones who should be listened to when it comes to this project, not us gimpy gamers/armchair historians.

You sound like these guys owe something to army veterans. They want to make a horror game based on Apocalypse Now for video gamers. I don't think that's unreasonable And you don't make games or art based on who's feelings you are going to hurt. You make a game you want to make. They may have said they wanted show respect and that can be in any form they wish to chose, be it the horrors of the war or acts of bravery by some of the men there. Changing the whole concept like you suggest is OTT because you think they have to appease these veterans. No.

 

Please, when films or games set out with a agenda like that they usually bomb. With your logic, why make a GTA out of respect for people that knocked down by cars? I don't think the victims of road traffic accidents are properly represented in GTA.. f*ck that, that's not the aim of Rockstar... nor is it the aim of these guys wanting to make this game about your vision of respect for Vietnam vets. What about the respect for the Vietnamese that died, will your infantry based game cover that too?

Edited January 30, 2017 by Mister Pink

[GameChristopher]

Hearts of Darkness was better. I want a game about that, where you just play as Michael Sheen trying to act around Brando's douchiness and Francis Ford Coppola keeps trying to get you drunk.

Edited January 30, 2017 by GameChristopher

[Leftist Bastard]

There already is a great adaptation of it in the form of Spec Ops: The Line, a very underrated gem of a game.

 

For this, like the guy above, I'll buy when it's out and reviews are good. I never fund digital game projects cause there's no way of knowing if it'll be good or not, nor if it will be delivered or not.

I'm just being petty here I know but technically Spec Ops: The Line is not an adaptation of Apocalypse Now but rather Heart of Darkness, which is what Apocalypse Now is based on.

 

 

My concern is that the game will tarnish the already beaten legacy of Vietnam, if they wanna show it how it was, then do infantry. If they wanna pay respect and show some dignity, then do infantry.

Now, I know you mean that in context of what the developers are saying and in context of the American involvement, but it's still a bit of an odd thing to say, honestly. In a conflict that took almost 20 years, divided the whole world and directly affected millions of people, who can say what is the best way to pay respect to the conflict?

 

Even if we only consider the US side, there are still a lot of other stories that can be told which can still be told by fictional media, sometimes with the result seemingly being pretty much the opposite of the original idea.

 

Take Rambo for example - that movie's biggest legacy is the genre of mindless action flicks, but the original story is about a war vetaran unable to survive in a 'normal' world. And even the movie itself depicts it very well actually; if the sequels didn't go all silly and bombastic, the name would be probably more synonymous with the psychological drama rather than the action.

 

Or Top Gun. A hyper-patriotic action flick with may seem to have no base, but its roots lie in how the US Air Force was being savaged by the enemy in the Vietnam war because they just didn't have the training, so that lead to the creation of the modern USAF.

 

There are interesting stories all around. Hard to say what really is the legacy of the Vietnam war; someone said (I think it was a war reporter, I need to find that quote) that it's impossible to truly depict the Vietnam war properly in a movie; hence why all those famous movies concentrated on the other aspects or went for the surreality. After all, Apocalypse Now is certainly not meant to be taken literally.

 

Interesting that you mention this because that's a pretty big part of Apocalypse Now. Showcasing the horror of war second hand in any media is a challenge, no matter what medium you use or just how good you are a telling a story and fleshing out themes and subject matters. That's why this:

Was so damn effective for so many people. There is really nothing else to say; you can look at it from a thousand different perspectives coming from a thousand different people and the one thing that will always be understated and hard to grasp is the horror of war. Vietnam in particular is very challenging to depict.

[Claude4Catalina]

 

I maintain my point that it seems the developers have wanted to make a survival horror game and watched Apocalypse Now, then thought "yeah we can use it as a base for our ideas" rather than "lets try and make a decent game about Vietnam" and then threw in some faux-patriotism to try and appease those with reservations. I think they could show a much better story through the eyes of an infantryman than some special ops bullsh*t, Colonel-turned-Sitting Bull assassination mission. You can hold on to your high hopes, but I'm sceptical of the effect this will have on the veteran community, after all, they are the ones who should be listened to when it comes to this project, not us gimpy gamers/armchair historians.

 

You sound like these guys owe something to army veterans. They want to make a horror game based on Apocalypse Now for video gamers. I don't think that's. And you don't make games or art based on who's feelings you are going to hurt. You make a game you want to make a game you want. They may have said they wanted show respect and that can be in any form they wish to chose, be it the horrors of the war or acts of bravery by some of the men there. Changing the whole concept like you suggest is OTT because you think they have to appease these veterans. No.

 

They're owed more than this sh*tshow, thats for sure. Especially when the developers started talking about respect and dignity, that is my point. If they had said "yeah lets make it cause it'll be cool as f*ck" then yeah crack on, but by throwing in a touch of patriotism with the line about respect and dignity, they've opened themselves up to more than warranted criticism. If veterans hand of fought that war, as unjustified as it may or may not of been, the developers wouldn't have a game! So yeah, veterans are owed something in this case, not a parade by any means, but at least a better acknowledgment of their service.

[RogerWho]

Well, this is not related to the game, but I've just been watching SF Debris and... Did you know George Lucas was originally meant to be the director for Apocalypse Now?

[D9fred95]

It's not looking good. They've only made $166,000 out of the $900,000 they need and there's only 17 days left. They're going to need a miracle.

[LincolnClay]

It's not looking good. They've only made $166,000 out of the $900,000 they need and there's only 17 days left. They're going to need a miracle.

It'd be funny if someone just randomly donated 734,000 right now.

 

Btw, 900,000 sounds pretty low for a big game like this, assuming it's an AAA game.

[HaRdSTyLe_83]

 

My concern is that the game will tarnish the already beaten legacy of Vietnam, if they wanna show it how it was, then do infantry. If they wanna pay respect and show some dignity, then do infantry. It feels to me that the developers had a solution and were looking for a problem; they wanted to make a survival horror game and chose to base it on Apocalypse Now, rather than want to do the war and it's participants any justice and show the day-by-day mind numbing boredom interspersed with fleeting moments of combat, they had their premise for a game and have wrapped it around an already established story that was used Vietnam as a backdrop. Which is fine, until they started to act like they're doing a civic and patriotic duty and treating Apocalypse Now like the bible of the average serviceman in Vietnam. Like I say, the whole survival horror is fine by me, as long as they make it very clear its a work of fiction very loosely based on true events, rather than a mantra.

 

 

if they really wanted to make a survival / horror game then they would not do american infantry. Viet Cong infantry, outnumbered and outgunned, living underground, constantly bombared with a hell of napalm....now that is the horror and would be a real survival game.

 

its just another war game to rest of the world that couldnt care less about american history.

Edited February 9, 2017 by HaRdSTyLe_83

[RogerWho]

Pretty sure war is always hell for everybody involved. It's not like getting blown up by a tank is that much worse than being blown up by a Vietcong booby trap.

 

But I'd also like to see a good game/movie/story told from the other side.

[Leftist Bastard]

 

 

My concern is that the game will tarnish the already beaten legacy of Vietnam, if they wanna show it how it was, then do infantry. If they wanna pay respect and show some dignity, then do infantry. It feels to me that the developers had a solution and were looking for a problem; they wanted to make a survival horror game and chose to base it on Apocalypse Now, rather than want to do the war and it's participants any justice and show the day-by-day mind numbing boredom interspersed with fleeting moments of combat, they had their premise for a game and have wrapped it around an already established story that was used Vietnam as a backdrop. Which is fine, until they started to act like they're doing a civic and patriotic duty and treating Apocalypse Now like the bible of the average serviceman in Vietnam. Like I say, the whole survival horror is fine by me, as long as they make it very clear its a work of fiction very loosely based on true events, rather than a mantra.

 

 

if they really wanted to make a survival / horror game then they would not do american infantry. Viet Cong infantry, outnumbered and outgunned, living underground, constantly bombared with a hell of napalm....now that is the horror and would be a real survival game.

 

its just another war game to rest of the world that couldnt care less about american history.

 

Are you familiar with the source material? just curious.