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uNi

Used cars, UK

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uNi

Finally ready to start looking for my first used car in the UK but still have plenty of questions before I actually jump in.

 

- v5, is this the proof of ownership document or a log book, or both?

- I've seen plenty of ads where the owner doesn't have the v5, how much of a hassle is it to get one?

 

- MOT categories, I've seen several, what does it mean/cost?

 

- Insurance, how much is too much?

There's too many factors not in my side on this one: just moved in, held a full license for little over an year, learnt to drive on the wrong side of the road, no claim bonus. Lowest one I've found so far was 1400 pounds/year for comprehensive on a 1.2cc from 2002. Not sure how much the year and cc plays with the premium.

 

 

 

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sivispacem

1) V5 is technically not proof of ownership, just proof of registered keeper. However it's commonly seen by people as proof, so reselling without can be a massive ballache. The log book is not really proof of ownership either, because...

 

2) ...Log books are commonly used to enable fraud. People take loans out on them, sell the car then the bailiffs come knocking for the new owners and take away the car. The only proof of ownership is the receipt and invoice. That said I would never, ever buy a car without a V5 or a logbook. Too much hassle, there are a million cars on the market with all the paperwork available.

 

3) For a personal car, the only category you need to worry about is 4. £54.85 is the maximum which can be charged for an MOT test, many charge less but most solely MOST places (IE those that don't do any work other than testing) charge that exact amount. I always use those as there's no impetus to fail a marginal vehicle so the owner spends a grand on repairs, as they won't profit from it.

 

4) Insurance, how long is a piece of string? Non UK national, short license holding period and lack of no claims will hit you hard. Age, job and location big factors too.

 

It's possible to play the system to some degree by chosing vehicles that people in your demographic wouldn't normally buy. For example, a young new driver will likely get cheaper insurance on a big Volvo or Saab estate barge with a 2.3 Turbo engine than on a 1.2 Corsa, because they're seen as very low risk for the age category. Likewise, it would be cheaper for me to insure a brand new BMW M3 than a 6 year old Focus RS because people in their late 20s and early 30 who own £70k BMWs tend to look after them, whereas people in their late 20s and early 30s who own £15K bodykitted Focii tend to drive them aggressively around housing estates with baseball caps on backwards.

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epoxi

For insurance, sign up for comparison sites and keep trying every model you are considering. Insurance can make the bulk of the cost to run the car so it always pays to check before setting your sights on something.

http://www.gocompare.com/

http://www.confused.com/

Also try both third party AND comprehensive quotes as sometimes comprehensive can in fact be cheaper.

 

Because of the high running costs of cars in the UK, and the strong culture of buying new cars, the used car market is definitely a buyer's market. Spare cars are also a liability in terms of space and paperwork so if you have cash in hand then most sellers will let you beat them down on price as they just want to get rid of them.

 

Don't stop looking until you find a good example you trust, there are plenty of used cars out there and they are quite difficult for sellers to shift. Of course having transport and a mobile phone is a priority so you can travel around to view cars (see if you can rent a car at the weekend or get a colleague to take you around).

 

As always, safety is a priority so don't carry cash on the first viewing of the car (apart from maybe £50 as a potential deposit). Check the VIN matches the V5C and the V5C matches the number plate, also run the number plate through a cheap HPI/accident check website to find any dodgy history.

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epoxi

Oh, also try:

Direct Line

Aviva

 

They aren't on comparison sites, and for 7 of my 8 years of driving, they have given me the best prices (even opting for comprehensive cover!).

 

Direct Line is probably the best insurance company I have dealt with, excellent customer service and in my case they haven't jacked up prices at renewal.

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stokiekris

Lv and Adrian flux have been the cheapest for me,

 

First car mk1 fiat punto 1.2car cost £200 Lv £1100 everywhere else £1800-£3000

 

Now I'm 26 got a 2007 skoda Octavia vrs 2.0 Tfsi car cost £4000 Adrian flux £575

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sivispacem

That seems quite expensive to me, I pay £250 for a Leon with the same engine and I'm not that much older. That's with Hastings Direct.

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uNi

I did try Aviva actually and couldn't even get a quote from them.

 

EDIT: Another factor I've never heard of is mileage/year. How much do have insured? I probably did around 15K KM in a year, considering there's a lot of Scotland/UK I'd like to visit I'd use a lot more than that.

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sivispacem

I'm insured for 12k miles per year including 2k business mileage.

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uNi

So I've found a random Saab as you suggested and played around with the quotes, still gives the 1500£ per year.

 

Mileage didn't change that much, having a Full EU instead UK didn't change much either. Now with all the initial details but by adding an extra year I've been holding the license for, drops 200£ all together.

 

So I guess I'm stuck with paying that amount and just wait.

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stokiekris

That seems quite expensive to me, I pay £250 for a Leon with the same engine and I'm not that much older. That's with Hastings Direct.

it doesn't help that the area I live in has a very high crime rate, same car same company insured at my parents address is nearly half that

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JN92

Insurance is just a fortune full stop. I think I was something in the region of £1500 to insure me on my new car. It's crazy!

Edited by JN92

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sivispacem

You're either very young or live in a bit of the country that's usually on fire.

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JN92

You're either very young or live in a bit of the country that's usually on fire.

Both haha! But it's also a high insurance group in truth. But I was mearly stating that even as a national it's expensive nevermind being from continental Europe.

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JuniorChubb

If you are a young driver in the UK insurance will kill you, even costing you more than the car.

 

Getting a black box will help though, as long as you drive in a manor that will not set off warnings.

Edited by JuniorChubb

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sivispacem

Black boxes actively encourage unsafe driving habits, I would never in a million years recommend one as a way of saving a few quid.

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JuniorChubb

Actively?

 

Could you elaborate?

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sivispacem

They penalise drivers who drive at or near speed limits, discourage exploration of car behaviour by flagging any kind of fast, flowing type A-road driving as "dangerous", punish perfectly safe overtaking manouvres and punish hard braking in emergency situations, whilst doing nothing to discourage the actually dangerous behaviours that new drivers seem to do endemically, like using mobile phones, generally being unaware of their surroundings, driving without lights or signals (especially in adverse weather conditions), tailgating, poor road positioning etc...

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JuniorChubb

They penalise drivers who drive at or near speed limits, discourage exploration of car behaviour by flagging any kind of fast, flowing type A-road driving as "dangerous", punish perfectly safe overtaking manouvres and punish hard braking in emergency situations, whilst doing nothing to discourage the actually dangerous behaviours that new drivers seem to do endemically, like using mobile phones, generally being unaware of their surroundings, driving without lights or signals (especially in adverse weather conditions), tailgating, poor road positioning etc...

They penalise you for driving at the speed limit? Really, over limit maybe but on the limit, that would surprise me.

 

I know this is a my grandma smoked till she was 100 kinda story but...

 

I work with a few teenagers some of which have opted for black boxes. Please for give me but these are 'Dagenham' teenagers and fit many of the driving stereotypes you might expect. Some have received discounts on the insurance and been surprised at this after admitting to driving over the speed limit a lot of the time. they have not been penalised for driving at or near the speed limits, exploring their cars or overtaking.

 

I know black boxes track which kinds of road you chose to drive on, insurance companies deem certain roads more dangerous. Whether encouraging people to avoid these roads is encouraging unsafe driving habits is hard to confirm without the figures. I agree driving on all types of road will improve your competence, you could argue that black boxes may stagger this slightly for younger drivers as they stick to safer roads until they ditch their black boxes and hit the higher risk roads as more experienced drivers. In reality though I don't think people pay any attention to this, I think speed is main thing people consider when driving with a black box and they go on whatever route they know or the Sat-Nav tells them.

 

As for the over taking, its a grey area. IIRC you are allowed to break the speed limit to make an overtake, this would be hard to implement in a black box but reducing overtakes that involve breaking the speed limit in inexperienced drivers is not a bad thing IMO.

 

There is a whole lot of grey area in there, but its a stretch to say they actively encourage bad driving.

 

As for the other things you mention they are definitely just as if not more dangerous than some of the things a black box cannot cover and cause a whole lot of issues on our roads. Black boxes do not actively encourage them though, they just cannot monitor them.

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sivispacem

They penalise you for driving at the speed limit? Really, over limit maybe but on the limit, that would surprise me.

On NSL roads arbitrary soft speed limits are placed by insurance providers based upon perceived accident risk or rate. Therefore you drive at, say 56mph in an NSL on a road that the IC thinks you should only do 50 on, you get penalised. Even if driving at 60 on said road is perfectly acceptable.

 

I know this is a my grandma smoked till she was 100 kinda story but...

Conversely, I know people who have had their premiums increased for what is objectively perfectly safe driving in black box equipped cars. The problem with anecdotes is they're very subjective. But the limitations I've outlined can be inferred, and in some cases are expressly stated, in the T&Cs of the policies.

 

I know black boxes track which kinds of road you chose to drive on, insurance companies deem certain roads more dangerous.

I think you've slightly misunderstood how they work here. You don't get penalised for simply driving on roads that are perceived as more dangerous, you get penalised for exceeding certain "soft" speed limits or rather abitrary measures such as acceleration or deceleration (which are both normally measured) which have little to nothing to do with what may or may not actually be safe.

 

This uncertainly and fear of punishment leads to unnecessarily cautious or defensive driving, discourages situational awareness and generally promotes driving in a manner which appeases your electronic overlord whilst probably being less safe than someone driving normally.

 

As for the over taking, its a grey area. IIRC you are allowed to break the speed limit to make an overtake

It's not a grey area, this is a common misconception. It's not actually legal to exceed the speed limit during an otherwise completely safe overtake, it just isn't ever really enforced. Much as is the case with driving in the middle lane of a motorway when not passing traffic- technically illegal, but not enforced.

 

As for the other things you mention they are definitely just as if not more dangerous than some of the things a black box cannot cover and cause a whole lot of issues on our roads. Black boxes do not actively encourage them though, they just cannot monitor them.

There's no reason black box technology couldn't monitor most of those things, though. It would probably be more conducive to changing driving attitudes and habits if it fined everyone who drove in fog with no f*cking lights £100 every time.

 

Drivers are on the whole too lacking in situational awareness and basic comprehension of vehicle dynamics anyway thanks to the never-ending crusade and the constant encroachment of nannying technology, we don't need new drivers being indoctrinated in these habits.

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JuniorChubb

snip*

 

The NSL limitations are surprising, after a quick look around I think some companies are more stringent than others. There seems to be a lot of people online (discussion threads similar to this) where people claim their boxes are not as strict as they thought they might be (obviously this is heresay, but relevant IMO).

 

It was difficult to confirm if that is the case with 100% of black boxes, could you find anything to confirm this? A lot of the info out there is from insurance companies and they obviously paint a very rosy picture of black boxes.

 

Black boxes may well monitor which roads you drive on (according to the website propaganda) 'driving less miles on safer roads will lead to lower premiums'.

 

As for the speeding to overtake, looks like my memory and misinfo let me down, but that was not the grey area I meant. The grey area is whether a black box can deem what a safe overtake is so it is not something it could monitor. You might be glad to know that middle-laning has had a push to be enforced recently, a few people have been penalised but I am sure this will die off.

 

A black box would struggle to monitor phone use and lack of awareness. The other things you mention are probably possible but more practical with black boxes provided by manufactures (I know its coming, but later rather than sooner please) rather than bolt on devices. I do remember reading about a black box monitoring tailgating somewhere.

 

All that being said, I cannot disagree with the majority of your post but still not agree with enough of it to agree with you first comment that black boxes actively encouraging bad driving habits. They may inadvertently cause a few but not enough for me to view them as a negative influence on drivers.

 

There are a lot of myths floating around about black boxes, either of us may be victim of them but I really struggled to find concrete evidence on the NSL speed limits, road tracking, how strict they actually and the penalties for breaking the rules. If you are getting your info from impartial sources please fill me in. My daughter uses one to reduce her insurance, if it is obvious that they cause more issues than they address I consider getting her to drop it and cover the difference myself.

 

Edit: sorry for the double notification, I could not leave hearsay as heresy. :lol:

Edited by JuniorChubb

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uNi

Went for Aviva, 1500 pounds for comprehensive.

 

A "bit" more than I wanted to spend but I was wasting about two hours daily walking to and from work.

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