The Last of Us Part II

[Journey_95]

I'm surprised they f*cked up this bad. Naughty Dog usually delivers.. I thought Uncharted 4 was great overall. But watching the leaks here, this is 100% sh*t. A real insult to Joel and Ellie fans. I always thought a sequel with the same characters was unnecessary since the first game finished the story perfectly, turns out that I was right

At least the sh*tstorm will be entertaining! Hope for something on the level of GoT S8

[LittleJesus]

"I know even within the studio we've had a lot of like philosophical arguments about some of the events and what happens in the game and I think this one might be more divisive than the first game."

"In a very kind of exciting way that I think it raises those interesting philosophical questions, and ask the players to interpret some of the material that's there and see where they stand on those questions."

[Laker23]

20 hours ago, MrBreak16 said:

At this point it seems like if you defend this game, your a bad person and if you criticize this game, your a bad person. So what do we do then? Step back and don’t say anything?

Say exactly what you want to say.

 

Show excitement if you're hyped for it or show disdain if you're not happy with the leaks.

 

At this point I don't see the need to debate too much anymore, wherever I look it goes around in circles.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Laker23

[Badman_]

The choices made by the writers aren't the main problem. Well, actually, they are a problem indeed. But the real main problem is just bad/lazy writing plus ditching vital plot points and important themes from the first game.

 

Final result = Wasted opportunity.

Edited May 13, 2020 by The Wolf Man

[Excalibur Voltaire]

7 hours ago, TheJesus1996 said:

In a very kind of exciting way that I think it raises those interesting philosophical questions, and ask the players to interpret some of the material that's there and see where they stand on those questions."

The only philosophical question is probably just "is revenge bad?" lmao

[LittleJesus]

26 minutes ago, Legion of Hell said:

The only philosophical question is probably just "is revenge bad?" lmao

I don't think it will be that simple. Maybe something similar like the first game were we had years of discussions if what Joel did in the end was right or wrong. Maybe they implement something similar in this ones ending but with the theme of "hate" and we will question ourselves by Ellie's choices in the end.

[TheSantader25]

Nothing's philosophical about sh*tty writing. I'm not even gonna call it lazy writing. I'm sure Druckmann has spent so much time on it. But sometimes your ego and beliefs f*ck you up and you end up doing a sh*tty narrative. That's what I think happened here. 

[Badman_]

Spoiler

I think it's "confirmed" that Druckmann did the motion capture for the character that spits in Joel after he dies. If this is true then this guy completely lost his way during the writing of the game.

About Druckmann and his work in TLOU2.

Edited May 14, 2020 by The Wolf Man

[Moth]

4 hours ago, The Wolf Man said:

  Hide contents

I think it's "confirmed" that Druckmann did the motion capture for the character that spits in Joel after he dies. If this is true then this guy completely lost his way during the writing of the game.

About Druckmann and his work in TLOU2.

So much for him loving the characters.

[Excalibur Voltaire]

9 hours ago, TheJesus1996 said:

theme of "hate"

Lmfao, theme about hatred, sounds like a terrible fanfic written by some 14 year old edgelords

[MrBreak16]

21 hours ago, Laker23 said:

Say exactly what you want to say.

 

Show excitement if you're hyped for it or show disdain if you're not happy with the leaks.

 

At this point I don't see the need to debate too much anymore, wherever I look it goes around in circles.

Yeah, I think I am going to leave this thread because peoples are just arguing in circles...

[LittleJesus]

2 minutes ago, MrBreak16 said:

Yeah, I think I am going to leave this thread because peoples are just arguing in circles...

It's for the best man! People don't agree to have a civil discussion...

See you'll the 19th!

[YNNEL]

Accidentally read the main spoiler. I honestly don’t want to play it now. Very disappointed as have been looking forward to this for a long time.

[Badman_]

Spoiler

 

The parodies are already here.

[Corndawg93]

I hope Ish appears in some capacity, also if he's in leaks, please don't say anything 

[Zello]

When it gets closer to review time is when people are going to get angry. If they are all 10/10's people will say it's a conspiracy if they are too low people are going to come up with excuses and probably riot.

[Moth]

1 hour ago, Zello said:

If they are all 10/10's people will say it's a conspiracy 

No sh*t. Most game journalists lean the same way politically as Druckmann. They will do anything to promote sh*t that fits their agenda. It's how Gamergate got started. 

[Turan]

18 hours ago, Moth said:

No sh*t. Most game journalists lean the same way politically as Druckmann. They will do anything to promote sh*t that fits their agenda. It's how Gamergate got started. 

 

What agenda is this game promoting?

[LittleJesus]

Just passing by...

 

 

The soundtrack is gonna be amazing, I can already hear this beautiful piece playing in some heartbreaking moments of the game.

[D9fred95]

2 hours ago, Turan said:

 

What agenda is this game promoting?

Spoiler

The theory is that Abby is supposed to be treated sympathetically despite killing Joel and all the other heinous stuff she does in the leaks simply because she's a very non-binary looking, masculine woman. Druckmann is trying to get on Anita Sarkeesian's good side and Anita really despises very feminine characters because they're "objectifying".

 

But that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY!

 

[Corndawg93]

NAugHty DoG f*CKEd uP tHiS GAmE aNd U shOUlD be JAiLeD 4 WaNTiNG 2 PlAy iT

[Turan]

23 minutes ago, D9fred95 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The theory is that Abby is supposed to be treated sympathetically despite killing Joel and all the other heinous stuff she does in the leaks simply because she's a very non-binary looking, masculine woman. Druckmann is trying to get on Anita Sarkeesian's good side and Anita really despises very feminine characters because they're "objectifying".

 

But that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY!

 

 

Spoiler

First off, what is wrong with having a different looking woman than normal as a character in the game? Not every woman has to look like Lara Croft or Chloe from UC4. Some will look less feminine and more masculine, and that is fine. What is the issue here? I welcome the diversity. Good on Anita for encouraging it. 

 

Secondly, I don't think the game is going to force you to empathize with Abby. It may try to, but that doesn't mean it will succeed. In the end it is up to you, the player, to decide whether you want to empathize with her or hate her guts.I think the game is simply trying to show you things from a different perspective. It leaves the rest up to you. Personally, I don't think the game will make me like Abby at all. I hate her guts already and I would be amazed if the game manages to make me empathize with her even a little. 

 

Lastly, it seems a lot of the "anti-SJW" people seem to be upset about Joel dying at the hands of this woman. Why? Because she is a woman? Why does that matter? Would it have been okay if Abby was a man instead? Or is it about the brutal manner Joel got killed? Well, Ellie and Dina are also getting seriously f*cked up at the hands of Abby. The only difference is that Joel dies and they don't. Which is also normal, because Joel's part of the story was done after the first game. Now it is about Ellie. So I'm not suprised that Joel dies. And it is the perfect reason for her to go back in to action. Story wise it makes complete sense. 

 

I also think the reason why the game brutally kills Joel in front of Ellie is to make her and the player seriously upset. It wants you to feel the same emotion Ellie feels and make you understand why she wants to kill Abby for revenge. Killing off Dina instead wouldn't convey the same emotion to the player as killing off Joel. Because we know Joel very well and we like him. That is why we and Ellie are so angry about it. 

 

 

[Excalibur Voltaire]

4 hours ago, Turan said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

First off, what is wrong with having a different looking woman than normal as a character in the game? Not every woman has to look like Lara Croft or Chloe from UC4. Some will look less feminine and more masculine, and that is fine. What is the issue here? I welcome the diversity. Good on Anita for encouraging it. 

 

Secondly, I don't think the game is going to force you to empathize with Abby. It may try to, but that doesn't mean it will succeed. In the end it is up to you, the player, to decide whether you want to empathize with her or hate her guts.I think the game is simply trying to show you things from a different perspective. It leaves the rest up to you. Personally, I don't think the game will make me like Abby at all. I hate her guts already and I would be amazed if the game manages to make me empathize with her even a little. 

 

Lastly, it seems a lot of the "anti-SJW" people seem to be upset about Joel dying at the hands of this woman. Why? Because she is a woman? Why does that matter? Would it have been okay if Abby was a man instead? Or is it about the brutal manner Joel got killed? Well, Ellie and Dina are also getting seriously f*cked up at the hands of Abby. The only difference is that Joel dies and they don't. Which is also normal, because Joel's part of the story was done after the first game. Now it is about Ellie. So I'm not suprised that Joel dies. And it is the perfect reason for her to go back in to action. Story wise it makes complete sense. 

 

I also think the reason why the game brutally kills Joel in front of Ellie is to make her and the player seriously upset. It wants you to feel the same emotion Ellie feels and make you understand why she wants to kill Abby for revenge. Killing off Dina instead wouldn't convey the same emotion to the player as killing off Joel. Because we know Joel very well and we like him. That is why we and Ellie are so angry about it. 

 

 

I don't think that scene is supposed to be anything deep, but only there just to incite the "ow the edge" reaction

 

Also, revenge is bad duh

 

Spoiler

Also also, just like @D9fred95said earlier, there's a reason why people compared abby to another character such as Senator Armstrong. The problem isn't because she's muscular, but because she look horrendously huge, ugly, and out of place for a post-apocalyptic setting. Also, abby is a mary sue

 

And people weren't outraged just because Joel dies. Afterall, it's rather accepted that a cinematic story must have a protagonist dying to make the story more edgy, but the problem is that his death is simply Johnny Klebitz 2.0

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Legion of Hell

[LittleJesus]

6 hours ago, Turan said:

 

What agenda is this game promoting?

I don't see an "agenda" neither. It has some raw and uncomfortable moments but that's not equivalent of "bad writing" is quite the opposite, just like the first seasons of Game of Thrones...

...And we have seen like 90 minutes of gameplay with less than 20 minutes of repetitive cut scenes? Yeah I think people are jumping to conclusions too early.

[Turan]

4 hours ago, Legion of Hell said:

I don't think that scene is supposed to be anything deep, but only there just to incite the "ow the edge" reaction

 

Also, revenge is bad duh

So for a game like TLOU where narrative is extremely important, they've decided not to think at all about the the type of story they wanted to tell but rather wanted to be just "edgy"? You are free to think what you want, but that is an incredibly simple way to look at it. 

 

Quote

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also also, just like @D9fred95said earlier, there's a reason why people compared abby to another character such as Senator Armstrong. The problem isn't because she's muscular, but because she look horrendously huge, ugly, and out of place for a post-apocalyptic setting. Also, abby is a mary sue

 

And people weren't outraged just because Joel dies. Afterall, it's rather accepted that a cinematic story must have a protagonist dying to make the story more edgy, but the problem is that his death is simply Johnny Klebitz 2.0

 

Spoiler

What is wrong with Abby being huge and ugly? And I just googled Senator Armstrong and uhh, wow. Talk about hyperbole. You may wanna get your eyes checked if you think the two characters are anything alike. Whether she is a Mary Sue or not remains to be seen. 

 

I explained why Joel died the way he did. It is to make the player feel emotional (the theme of "hate" remember?). Would you have been as upset if Joel died by jumping in front of Ellie to save her and taking a bullet instead? You said so yourself, it wouldn't make you as upset. So clearly there is a good reason for Joel's death. 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Turan

[Zello]

Spoiler

 

With Joel dying this trailer makes much more sense now. I don't think Joel is there he's a vision that Ellie sees. Also just the way that he talks here.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Zello

[Dbzk1999]

13 hours ago, Legion of Hell said:

I don't think that scene is supposed to be anything deep, but only there just to incite the "ow the edge" reaction

 

Also, revenge is bad duh

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also also, just like @D9fred95said earlier, there's a reason why people compared abby to another character such as Senator Armstrong. The problem isn't because she's muscular, but because she look horrendously huge, ugly, and out of place for a post-apocalyptic setting. Also, abby is a mary sue

 

And people weren't outraged just because Joel dies. Afterall, it's rather accepted that a cinematic story must have a protagonist dying to make the story more edgy, but the problem is that his death is simply Johnny Klebitz 2.0

 

Spoiler

Okay, here’s a genuine question. What makes her a Mary Sue? Seriously, what? Cause from what’s been shown, she sure as heck isn’t being shown as a perfect nor flawless person. We haven’t even actually seen much of her besides particular moments.This day and age, it feels like that term’s been used so much to the point that it’s practically lost it’s actual meaning

 

[D9fred95]

22 hours ago, Turan said:

 

  Hide contents

First off, what is wrong with having a different looking woman than normal as a character in the game? Not every woman has to look like Lara Croft or Chloe from UC4. Some will look less feminine and more masculine, and that is fine. What is the issue here? I welcome the diversity. Good on Anita for encouraging it. 

 

Secondly, I don't think the game is going to force you to empathize with Abby. It may try to, but that doesn't mean it will succeed. In the end it is up to you, the player, to decide whether you want to empathize with her or hate her guts.I think the game is simply trying to show you things from a different perspective. It leaves the rest up to you. Personally, I don't think the game will make me like Abby at all. I hate her guts already and I would be amazed if the game manages to make me empathize with her even a little. 

 

Lastly, it seems a lot of the "anti-SJW" people seem to be upset about Joel dying at the hands of this woman. Why? Because she is a woman? Why does that matter? Would it have been okay if Abby was a man instead? Or is it about the brutal manner Joel got killed? Well, Ellie and Dina are also getting seriously f*cked up at the hands of Abby. The only difference is that Joel dies and they don't. Which is also normal, because Joel's part of the story was done after the first game. Now it is about Ellie. So I'm not suprised that Joel dies. And it is the perfect reason for her to go back in to action. Story wise it makes complete sense. 

 

I also think the reason why the game brutally kills Joel in front of Ellie is to make her and the player seriously upset. It wants you to feel the same emotion Ellie feels and make you understand why she wants to kill Abby for revenge. Killing off Dina instead wouldn't convey the same emotion to the player as killing off Joel. Because we know Joel very well and we like him. That is why we and Ellie are so angry about it. 

 

 

Spoiler

Because TLOU isn't Saint's Row where characters can have crazy physiques, a woman of Abby's stature where she's as buff as she is and as healthy as she is is extremely unrealistic given TLOU's setting. That kind of physique needs a good diet of meats and vegetables and the Firefly HQ does not look like they have a bunch of cows and pigs lying around to keep one woman fed to that magnitude. Hell, Abby is actually more masculine than the actress who played her and her actress has made public her specific diet that she needs to keep those muscles, a diet Abby could never hope to have in TLOU's setting. We're not saying women all have to have DD's and only men can be like Hulk Hogan in his prime, but TLOU besides the fungus zombies is pretty grounded in reality and Abby being the way she is breaks it. 

 

Anita wants diversity for the sake of making herself more cash, i.e., getting her followers to send her cash so she can "fight the good fight" and then does nothing. She actually asked for several thousand dollars years ago to open a Discord server. She isn't doing what she's doing for the "greater good" and she is NOT someone you should be rooting for.

 

The reason why Abby will most likely be portrayed sympathetically is the simple fact you'll be playing as her half the game. If you've ever heard of Spec Ops The Line, the Main character commits all sorts of horrific atrocities (i.e. killing civilians slowly and painfully) but the player is still given the question of if they're redeemable or not. Abby will probably have a similar arc but the problem is Spec Ops is it's own self-contained story whereas TLOU2 is continuing the story of TLOU with the villain who you're mean't to sympethize with is a brand new character. Instead of civilians, it's the main character we've gotten attached to from the previous game. If you're going to play as Abby for half the game, they'll have to make her somewhat sympathetic, nobody wants to play as a hate sink the whole time.

 

People are pissed at Joel dying both because of two reasons: Abby falls into that camp that SJW's love, a very masculine appearance and putting the male main character in his place while most likely being portrayed sympathetically for it. She is literally the worst person to do it. Negan from The Walking Dead is how you do that scene right, he's charming goofy, but legit intimidating. He wants to teach the main characters a lesson but also want them to work for him so you know your favourite characters are in trouble beyond just a death. Abby just wants vengeance for her dad, already cliche on it's own but her dad was a guy dissecting valuable people and constantly failing. He deserved to die so her reason for vengeance isn't going to make you want to play as her.

 

Second reason is it's so anticlimactic for Joel to die in such a way. His death exists just to make Ellie sad from the looks of it and it's so pitiful. It was suggested elsewhere it would've been more interesting if Ellie thought Joel had been kidnapped and but then discovered Abby tricked her and Joel had been dead the whole time. That would've been more heartbreaking to both her and the player. Or even Joel and Ellie go their separate ways after she learns the truth of the first game's ending, they go on their own journeys, but come across each other again near the end. However Joel is in a situation where he knows he'll die but lies to Ellie again that he'll be fine only for Ellie to learn too late. Something of that nature. Killing Joel to make us upset would only work if we weren't playing as Abby after that point because then it makes no sense. This character you JUST met executed a character you love and are then expected to play as them the rest of the game beating up the OTHER main character you love with little comeuppance. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by D9fred95

[Turan]

3 hours ago, D9fred95 said:

  Hide contents

Because TLOU isn't Saint's Row where characters can have crazy physiques, a woman of Abby's stature where she's as buff as she is and as healthy as she is is extremely unrealistic given TLOU's setting. That kind of physique needs a good diet of meats and vegetables and the Firefly HQ does not look like they have a bunch of cows and pigs lying around to keep one woman fed to that magnitude. Hell, Abby is actually more masculine than the actress who played her and her actress is already super buff. We're not saying women all have to have DD's and only men can be like Hulk Hogan in his prime, but TLOU besides the fungus zombies is pretty grounded in reality and Abby being the way she is breaks it. 

 

Anita wants diversity for the sake of making herself more cash, i.e., getting her followers to send her cash so she can "fight the good fight" and then does nothing. She actually asked for several thousand dollars years ago to open a Discord server. She isn't doing what she's doing for the "greater good" and she is NOT someone you should be rooting for.

 

The reason why Abby will most likely be portrayed sympathetically is the simple fact you'll be playing as her half the game. If you've ever heard of Spec Ops The Line, the Main character commits all sorts of horrific atrocities (i.e. killing civilians slowly and painfully) but the player is still given the question of if they're redeemable or not. Abby will probably have a similar arc but the problem is Spec Ops is it's own self-contained story whereas TLOU2 is continuing the story of TLOU with the villain who you're mean't to sympethize with is a brand new character. Instead of civilians, it's the main character we've gotten attached to from the previous game. If you're going to play as Abby for half the game, they'll have to make her somewhat sympathetic, nobody wants to play as a hate sink the whole time.

 

People are pissed at Joel dying both because of two reasons: Abby falls into that camp that SJW's love, a very masculine appearance and putting the male main character in his place while most likely being portrayed sympathetically for it. She is literally the worst person to do it. Negan from The Walking Dead is how you do that scene right, he's charming goofy, but legit intimidating. He wants to teach the main characters a lesson but also want them to work for him so you know your favourite characters are in trouble beyond just a death. Abby just wants vengeance for her dad, already cliche on it's own but her dad was a guy dissecting valuable people and constantly failing. He deserved to die so her reason for vengeance isn't going to make you want to play as her.

 

Second reason is it's so anticlimactic for Joel to die in such a way. His death exists just to make Ellie sad from the looks of it and it's so pitiful. It was suggested elsewhere it would've been more interesting if Ellie thought Joel had been kidnapped and but then discovered Abby tricked her and Joel had been dead the whole time. That would've been more heartbreaking to both her and the player. Or even Joel and Ellie go their separate ways after she learns the truth of the first game's ending, they go on their own journeys, but come across each other again near the end. However Joel is in a situation where he knows he'll die but lies to Ellie again that he'll be fine only for Ellie to learn too late. Something of that nature. Killing Joel to make us upset would only work if we weren't playing as Abby after that point because then it makes no sense. This character you JUST met executed a character you love and are then expected to play as them the rest of the game beating up the OTHER main character you love with little comeuppance. 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

We don't know the circumstances she grew up in and has been living like, so whether it is unrealistic or not remains to be seen. But even then, so what if it is unrealistic for a woman to have a physique like that in TLOU? I don't see how that is so immersion breaking. She certainly doesn't look over the top. She looks like a normal buff dude basically. Nothing superhuman about her.

 

I don't know much about Anita other than her wanting better representation of women in gaming. I support that part of her at least. I don't know if she has other intentions that can be considered bad. 

 

Yeah, I already told you that the game will attempt to make you see things from Abby's perspective and try to make you empathize with her. And if you are not up for that then that is fine. But I would give it a chance at least. 

 

So you do admit that you would've rather had a man taking out Joel rather than a woman? That is quite sexist actually. The gender doesn't matter AT ALL in these circumstances. It would literally play out the same way. There is no affect on gameplay or story telling. This shouldn't bother you at all. 

 

Joel was also a piece of sh*t. He said so himself in the first game. He killed innoncent people. And he took the one hope of humanity away for selfish reasons (kidnapping Ellie from the surgeon). But you are okay with playing as him? Let me guess, because he is a man?

 

The reason why ND wants you to play as Abby and gave Joel and Ellie such a horrible fate, is to show how violent and sad the world of TLOU is. There are no good guys. I think that is the point ND is trying to make. Joel is not a good person. Ellie is not a good person. Abby is not a good person. They are all murderers or worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Turan

[LittleJesus]

1 hour ago, Turan said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

We don't know the circumstances she grew up in and has been living like, so whether it is unrealistic or not remains to be seen. But even then, so what if it is unrealistic for a woman to have a physique like that in TLOU? I don't see how that is so immersion breaking. She certainly doesn't look over the top. She looks like a normal buff dude basically. Nothing superhuman about her.

 

I don't know much about Anita other than her wanting better representation of women in gaming. I support that part of her at least. I don't know if she has other intentions that can be considered bad. 

 

Yeah, I already told you that the game will attempt to make you see things from Abby's perspective and try to make you empathize with her. And if you are not up for that then that is fine. But I would give it a chance at least. 

 

So you do admit that you would've rather had a man taking out Joel rather than a woman? That is quite sexist actually. The gender doesn't matter AT ALL in these circumstances. It would literally play out the same way. There is no affect on gameplay or story telling. This shouldn't bother you at all. 

 

Joel was also a piece of sh*t. He said so himself in the first game. He killed innoncent people. And he took the one hope of humanity away for selfish reasons (kidnapping Ellie from the surgeon). But you are okay with playing as him? Let me guess, because he is a man?

 

The reason why ND wants you to play as Abby and gave Joel and Ellie such a horrible fate, is to show how violent and sad the world of TLOU is. There are no good guys. I think that is the point ND is trying to make. Joel is not a good person. Ellie is not a good person. Abby is not a good person. They are all murderers or worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

It's funny to see people claiming that they retcon Joel into a bad person "they make my Joel dirty"
Joel was always a selfish asshole, that's part of his personality (he's my favourite videogame character btw).
Ever since the outbreak day he didn't showed pity for the family that needed a lift.
He would killed you without hesitation if you encountered him in that world.
Even Tess acknowledged "we are sh*tty people Joel, we've been like that for a long time".
He bullied Tommy and rubs in his face that he would not survived without him.
He killed Marlene in cold blood and never showed regrets of his actions.

But nah they make him dirty for the sequel just to pull a personal AgEndA.