General US Politics Discussion

[Clem Fandango]

 

I can see a difference, but if someone was pissed over you breaking their window and possibly disrupting their livelihood, they probably wouldn't feel an obligation to play fair.

 

So you understand perfectly the difference between private and personal property you just think a business owner would be so upset that they won't care? So what if I flip you the bird and you smash me in the face with a glass? Of course there's a difference, but if you flip someone the bird they probably won't feel any obligation to respect that difference!

 

 

 

And if you disrupt their ability to profit, you disrupt their ability to maintain their own house.

People don't typically go bankrupt because their shop is closed for a few days, and also the shop is worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars depending on the location. They can simply sell it, or borrow against it. It's a ridiculous comparison, which you apparently know.

[Khephera]

[Dr. Robotnik]

 

 

 

 

 

And if you disrupt their ability to profit, you disrupt their ability to maintain their own house.

People don't typically go bankrupt because their shop is closed for a few days, and also the shop is worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars depending on the location. They can simply sell it, or borrow against it. It's a ridiculous comparison, which you apparently know.

 

 

What obligation do they have to be proportionate or just let people wreck their sh*t? It doesn't necessarily matter if it's a ridiculous comparison to you. Either way, you've made their life more difficult, so there's not much reason for them not to do the same to you.

[make total destroy]

 

 

 

 

What's clear is that the groups we've listed provide funding for the violent protests we see in our streets, like in Arizona last night.

You mean the violent protests where police fired tear gas canisters directly at protestors that supposedly threw plastic water bottles at them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you can't come to realization that people like Soros are funding these groups, at least agree with me that they shouldn't be funded in the first place.

TIL black bloc tactics require funding.

[Clem Fandango]

What obligation do they have to be proportionate or just let people wreck their sh*t? It doesn't necessarily matter if it's a ridiculous comparison to you. Either way, you've made their life more difficult, so there's not much reason for them not to do the same to you.

 

God you are so annoying. Jesus. What kind of point is this? If someone calls me a c*nt, what obligation do I have to be proportional by not knocking them down and stomping them into the dirt? If a Chinese submarine is destroyed what obligation do they have to be proportional by not nuking the country in question? Work those out and you have your answer. f*ck me.

[jpm1]

i find a bit weird how some religious leaders 'give orders of vote in the US'. in France you never see such things. i mean a pastor in France talks about what he is paid for and about what God asked him to do. spread the Bible and the word of Jesus to the most. unless clear case of racism, or real and clear danger for the nation you'll never see a religious leader talking about politics in his church/temple. because it's obvious such behavior will create tensions inside his assembly. if religious leaders give publicly vote orders or suggestions, what's the point of making the ballot secret?

[Clem Fandango]

Fitting, because 'anarcho-Capitalism' is just a joke on the internet and they watch all politics with mild, detached amusement. Probably got something to do with you lot not having the organisational ability to be represented on the street, and your 'movement' being made up of smirking neckbeards.

[Dr. Robotnik]

 

What obligation do they have to be proportionate or just let people wreck their sh*t? It doesn't necessarily matter if it's a ridiculous comparison to you. Either way, you've made their life more difficult, so there's not much reason for them not to do the same to you.

 

God you are so annoying. Jesus. What kind of point is this? If someone calls me a c*nt, what obligation do I have to be proportional by not knocking them down and stomping them into the dirt? If a Chinese submarine is destroyed what obligation do they have to be proportional by not nuking the country in question? Work those out and you have your answer. f*ck me.

 

 

Well, for one thing, it's illegal to punch someone for an insult, so you'll get arrested. If you nuke a country, you get nuked yourself. But you don't seem to believe in a system of law and order as it's commonly understood. So if the store owner's not inclined to be forgiving, how are you going to stop him? As it is, it seems like all you've got is trying to convince him that it didn't hurt him that much.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Dr. Robotnik

[Khephera]

 

- snip -

Fitting, because 'anarcho-Capitalism' is just a joke on the internet and they watch all politics with mild, detached amusement. Probably got something to do with you lot not having the organisational ability to be represented on the street, and your 'movement' being made up of smirking neckbeards.

 

Hahaha ui ui ui, triggered? Quite ironic that there are people out there still thinking that this "meme" of Anarcho-capitalism solely exists "on the internet". But you're right, we're not on the streets smashing windows. (:

Edited August 24, 2017 by Khephera

[Clem Fandango]

Well, for one thing, it's illegal to punch someone for an insult, so you'll get arrested. If you nuke a country, you get nuked yourself.

It's also illegal to burn my f*cking house down. The consequences for an action have nothing to do with its inherent moral character.

 

 

 

But you don't seem to believe in a system of law and order as it's commonly understood. So if the store owner's not inclined to be forgiving, how are you going to stop him?

What the f*ck are you talking about? We're discussing the moral character of the actions. You understand the store owner coming to burn my house down is f*cking theoretical, right? You are wasting my time. You are driving me up the wall, I am presently pressed against the corner of the ceiling like Spiderman.

 

I could explain my views on law and order but I don't want to cause you to jump even further out of the context of this discussion.

 

How do I block someone?

[Dr. Robotnik]

 

Well, for one thing, it's illegal to punch someone for an insult, so you'll get arrested. If you nuke a country, you get nuked yourself.

It's also illegal to burn my f*cking house down. The consequences for an action have nothing to do with its inherent moral character.

 

 

 

But you don't seem to believe in a system of law and order as it's commonly understood. So if the store owner's not inclined to be forgiving, how are you going to stop him?

What the f*ck are you talking about? We're discussing the moral character of the actions.

 

So, yeah. All you've got is trying to convince the guy you cost money that you didn't actually cost him that much money. Good luck with that.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Dr. Robotnik

[make total destroy]

Quite ironic that there are people out there still thinking that this "meme" of Anarcho-capitalism solely exists "on the internet".

 

 

List of real world "anarcho-capitalist" movements:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you're right, we're not on the streets smashing windows. (:

 

 

Or doing anything, at all.

[Clem Fandango]

Hahaha ui ui ui, triggered?

hahaha ui ui ui I'm not some kid on tumblr, darl. 'Triggering' is something that happens to people with PTSD as I understand it, and isn't used as a verb.

 

 

 

Quite ironic that there are people out there still thinking that this "meme" of Anarcho-capitalism solely exists "on the internet".

Ironic doesn't mean 'amusing.' I'd explain what it means but it's an infamously difficult word to define, so you can look it up yourself.

 

But yes, 'anarcho'-Capitalism only exists on the internet.

 

 

 

But you're right, we're not on the streets smashing windows. (:

You're not on the streets at all, nor are you in academia, the media, think tanks or anywhere but social media really.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Melchior

[Khephera]

 

 

But you're right, we're not on the streets smashing windows. (:

 

 

Or doing anything, at all.

 

 

 

nor are you in academia

 

 

 

Keep smashing windows, if that's your market value. I really don't give a flying f*ck.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Khephera

[Clem Fandango]

So, yeah. All you've got is trying to convince the guy you cost money that you didn't actually cost him that much money. Good luck with that.

 

There is no guy. It's a hypothetical. All you're doing is pointing out that when I was a vandalising teenager, I probably pissed a bunch of people off. Like I need you to tell me that. If you make someone mad, they might do something mean to you. Shocker!

 

This is why I asked you if you were responding for its own sake. You keep jumping around and can't stay within the lines necessary to keep a discussion coherent.

[u r dumb]

You aren't represented in academia though, apart from utter nutjobs like Hoppe and corpses from the Austrian and Chicago school.

 

 

 

Keep smashing windows, if that's your market value.

hahaha yeah I mean futile attempts at protesting our market system by smashing windows are absolutely worthless in the market! Good come back bro!

 

Anyway you guys just keep on 'triggering' people with Nazi frog memes, if that's your contribution to human civilisation and your own self-actualisation. I'm sure your movement will have great effect on our society and carry our species to the stars:

Edited August 24, 2017 by Melchior

[Dr. Robotnik]

 

 

 

So, yeah. All you've got is trying to convince the guy you cost money that you didn't actually cost him that much money. Good luck with that.

 

There is no guy. It's a hypothetical. All you're doing is pointing out that when I was a vandalising teenager, I probably pissed a bunch of people off. Like I need you to tell me that. If you make someone mad, they might do something mean to you. Shocker!

 

This is why I asked you if you were responding for its own sake. You keep jumping around and can't stay within the lines necessary to keep a discussion coherent.

 

You did say that hypothetically, someone could wreck your business as retaliation if they wanted to or if you had one, so apparently there was a guy.

 

If you wreck people's buinesses, you're an asshole. Or at least, you were one back then.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Dr. Robotnik

[Happy Hunter]

I'm sure your movement will have great effect on our society

Considering Donald Trump's President, I'm not sure your actions seem to be having much effect to be honest.

 

I mean, yeah you make a lot of noise. What have you got done though?

[Khephera]

You aren't represented in academia though, apart from utter nutjobs like Hoppe and corpses from the Austrian and Chicago school.

You know, "nutjob" is not an argument. (: You are f*cking stupid, no... you're are not, I don't think your IQ is 2 digit or something, but you're intentionally dishonest or just willfully ignorant. Hans-Hermann Hoppe, the person you've just mentioned, is a recognised academic professor emeritus of the University of Nevada, economist and social scientist under Habermas. I don't even know where to start, it's just too stupid, really! I could name you many more, but if you think that "our" underrepresentation in academia is a sign of... yeah, of what? What's your point? We're not mainstream? We know, and we would be surprised if we were.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Khephera

[Clem Fandango]

but if you think that "our" underrepresentation in academia is a sign of... yeah, of what? What's your point? We're not mainstream? We know, and we would surprised if we were.

Alright, fair enough, though the rest of it stands. The movement is actually primarily made up of sh*t stirers online with fringe crazies representing it in academia. Also pretty surprised you won't distance yourself from Hoppe, but whatever.

 

 

 

I'm sure your movement will have great effect on our society

Considering Donald Trump's President, I'm not sure your actions seem to be having much effect to be honest.

 

I mean, yeah you make a lot of noise. What have you got done though?

 

In recent years you mean? Anarchists have mobilised thousands of people across the US to oppose Trump and even more the world over to oppose austerity and the growth of the radical-right, injected radical anti-Capitalism into social justice politics, inspired a new direction in social and political theory toward direct democracy and organic social functioning, inspired the Kurdish to break with Marxism-Leninism and built what is- for all its flaws- one of the greatest democracies in human history and the opposition to ISIS on their Western front. We've also made quite a bit of noise like you said, which is more than we can say for our unwanted children in the 'anarcho'-Capitalist movement.

 

Robotnik:

You did say that hypothetically, someone could wreck your business as retaliation if they wanted to or if you had one, so apparently there was a guy.

 

But you keep f*cking asking me what I plan to do about the shareholders of Myers department store coming to smash my TV and flip my couch. They are not doing that, nor would they be morally justified in doing so, by your own f*cking admission. If your point is just that I am an arsehole, fine! You could have just said that rather than sending me a stream of one word responses, each having less to do with the conversation than the last.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Melchior

[Khephera]

Also pretty surprised you won't distance yourself from Hoppe, but whatever.

What do you mean? Why should I? I think he's a genius. No need to "distance" myself from him other than disagreeing with him on certain, minor (!) points. I would really love if this kind of moral outrage would be the same when it comes to Marx.... do you expect every self-proclaimed Marxist to distance themselves from Marx just because he was a racist, antisemitic, exploiting asshole?

Edited August 24, 2017 by Khephera

[El Dildo]

you make a lot of noise. What have you got done though?

well, this is quite the unfortunate attempt at a comeback...

'Make A Lot Of Noise But Do Nothing' is literally Donald Trump's middle name.

that's his entire career as a politician. noise + inability = our president.

 

this is getting too easy.

I'm starting to run out of synonyms for idiot.

[Clem Fandango]

 

Also pretty surprised you won't distance yourself from Hoppe, but whatever.

What do you mean? Why should I? I think he's a genius. No need to "distance" myself from him other than disagreeing with him on certain, minor (!) points. I would really love if this kind of moral outrage would be the same when it comes to Marx.... do you expect every self-proclaimed Marxist to distance themselves from Marx just because he was a racist, antisemitic, exploiting asshole?

I don't mean he is otherwise a crazy, the content of his work is crazy. I mean, he basically says anything is justified under 'anarcho'-Capitalism and uses it to defend monarchy. It's not even consistent with what little theoretical basis 'anarcho'-Capitalism has.

[Happy Hunter]

 

you make a lot of noise. What have you got done though?

well, this is quite the unfortunate attempt at a comeback...

'Make A Lot Of Noise But Do Nothing' is literally Donald Trump's middle name.

that's his entire career as a politician. noise + inability = our president.

 

this is getting too easy.

I'm starting to run out of synonyms for idiot.

 

Those are the key words. He's your President - someone you describe as noise and inability; so you must be doing something wrong. That's my point.

 

I mean, you've got to question - if being "out on the streets" is working so well, how come you've ended up with Donald Trump, the "growth of the radical alt-right", etc.?

 

Oh, and I'm not talking about what's morally right, and said nothing on the President himself or his abilities (nice strawman though). I'm talking about results.

 

I'm starting to run out of synonyms for idiot.

Might be an idea to just talk like an adult instead then, rather than stamping your feet and insulting people when someone you don't like shows up.

 

In recent years you mean? Anarchists have mobilised thousands of people across the US to oppose Trump and even more the world over to oppose austerity and the growth of the radical-right, injected radical anti-Capitalism into social justice politics, inspired a new direction in social and political theory toward direct democracy and organic social functioning, inspired the Kurdish to break with Marxism-Leninism and built what is- for all its flaws- one of the greatest democracies in human history and the opposition to ISIS on their Western front. We've also made quite a bit of noise like you said, which is more than we can say for our unwanted children in the 'anarcho'-Capitalist movement.

I can't speak for the stuff on the Kurdish - I don't know a lot about them and their political system, other than that they oppose ISIS. Social justice politics - yeah that's an achievement, although you could argue that branch of politics is on the way out (difficult to say though. Trump and the "alt-right" may be a fluke. Only time will tell).

 

Mobilising people to oppose Trump - well that's an action rather than an achievement or any kind of result.

 

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs or trying to make you feel small or anything like that. I'm just saying; you belittle social media, memes, etc. in favour of being out on the streets. Yet being out on the streets has left you with a President born out of memes, as well as the "growth of the radical alt-right" that you talk about.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that these things having happened should be enough to ask why, and question whether or not your tactics are working. Whether you could do better, or something's changed, or you need to adapt, and so on.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Happy Hunter

[Clem Fandango]

Oh no, I agree with you. The anarchist movement isn't accomplishing anywhere near as much as it should be, but it is a 'real' movement unlike anarcho-Capitalists and the alt-right generally.

 

Tactically things aren't going all that well (though our theory is God-tier uwu) but the complete reinvention of a social movement isn't something that happens overnight, let alone when thousands of people are pouring in every year from elsewhere on the political spectrum.

[El Dildo]

Those are the key words. He's your President - someone you describe as noise and inability; so you must be doing something wrong. That's my point.

 

I mean, you've got to question - if being "out on the streets" is working so well, how come you've ended up with Donald Trump, the "growth of the radical alt-right", etc.?

 

Oh, and I'm not talking about what's morally right, and said nothing on the President himself or his abilities (nice strawman though). I'm talking about results

well you're talking about 2 different things.

nobody was "out on the streets" before the election like they have been after the election, so there's no correlation between what's happening out there and how he won the election itself. the radical right only grew a little because it was embraced by a mainstream political party in the Republicans. it's still a small minority movement in the country overall.

 

so you've got that wrong off the bat.

but you also completely missed the point of how ironic and ignorant your own statement was to begin with.

 

you want to criticize the people in the streets for being talk and no action?

Donald Trump is all talk and zero action. winning the election is not "results." that's the first step. he's done nothing with the opportunity except embarrass the nation and shame the Executive branch. he's enacted zero legislation, spent more time on vacation than behind the Oval Office desk, speaks with the vocabulary of a child, and tweets about Rosie O'Donell.

 

you just don't get it...

[Dr. Robotnik]

But you keep f*cking asking me what I plan to do about the shareholders of Myers department store coming to smash my TV and flip my couch. They are not doing that, nor would they be morally justified in doing so, by your own f*cking admission. If your point is just that I am an arsehole, fine! You could have just said that rather than sending me a stream of one word responses, each having less to do with the conversation than the last.

 

 

 

 

I can see why anarchists attempt to draw a distinction between personal or private property, but I don't think there is much of one (at least, not to the extent you seem to think there is). If that makes me unhinged, so be it.

[Creed Bratton]

The number of Nazi apologists in this topic...Christ almighty. Your ancestors are rolling in their graves. What a sad bunch of losers some of you are.

[Happy Hunter]

you want to criticize the people in the streets for being talk and no action?

Donald Trump is all talk and zero action. winning the election is not "results."

I asked what Melchior's political side had achieved, as he was talking about the Anarcho-Capitalists' lack of presence/action/whatever it was. So, Trump's effectiveness as a leader is irrelevant to that subject - I'm talking about which group of people were more effective in getting their politicians elected.

 

Besides, the President isn't necessarily even in the equation there. I don't know how most Anarcho-Capitalists feel about him.

 

In that context (i.e. the context in which I posted) winning the US Presidential Election is definitely a "result" for his supporters. It's one of the best results a political group can hope for. Getting someone elected is one of the only results actually, short of revolution.

 

Whether Trump is any good for the country is a different topic, and not one I commented on.

 

The number of Nazi apologists in this topic...Christ almighty. Your ancestors are rolling in their graves. What a sad bunch of losers some of you are.

Who said anything about Nazism?

 

I don't like Nazism anyway. Killing people aside, there's them banning guns, using violence on those they disagree with, launching false flags to get into wars, pushing out deceptive propaganda through the MSM of the day. All are not really things I'm big on.

[sivispacem]

Well give me an example of what you were expecting.

...are you being intentionally obtuse? I'm asking for evidence, whatever that form may take, of Soros either directly funding "militant leftist" groups, or some evidence of intent for money to be supplied to such groups when funding organisations that distribute it.

 

This would fundamentally because fairly simple ask if such evidence existed, and that's exactly my point. The assertion isn't based on fact or evidence, but on two people's desire to imprint their own cognitive bias onto events and thus create a narrative that fits their views.

 

Why do you get so edgy over these simple things?

Lol, "edgy".

 

Again the check analogy. I have shown that Soros funds groups that fund protesters such as DisruptJ20.

No, you haven't; you've shown that a group that Soros has funded at some point has funded them, which is completely different. You also haven't shown that DirsuptJ20 are militant or leftist, though that's not a contesting of the latter.

 

Let's say the funds are intended for one purpose and they are instead given to these violent groups.

What violent groups? You've not actually produced any evidence to suggest these groups are in fact violent so this whole argument is nothing more than a red herring.

 

Soros funds Alliance for Global Justice (among others) AGJ funds groups such as Resist Fascism, which was responsible for the J20 protests, where over 200 people were arrested and lots of damage done. Is this specific enough?

No, it's not, because you've presented no evidence that DirsuptJ20 as an organisation were responsible for any of the violence that took place. Hence, "circumstantial"- they just happened to be in the place where it occurred at or around the same time.

[mr quick]

 

you want to criticize the people in the streets for being talk and no action?

Donald Trump is all talk and zero action. winning the election is not "results."

I asked what Melchior's political side had achieved, as he was talking about the Anarcho-Capitalists' lack of presence/action/whatever it was. So, Trump's effectiveness as a leader is irrelevant to that subject - I'm talking about which group of people were more effective in getting their politicians elected.

 

Besides, the President isn't necessarily even in the equation there. I don't know how most Anarcho-Capitalists feel about him.

 

In that context (i.e. the context in which I posted) winning the US Presidential Election is definitely a "result" for his supporters. It's one of the best results a political group can hope for. Getting someone elected is one of the only results actually, short of revolution.

 

 

Election of politicians is hardly a metric by which to measure political efficiency. The US elections would be a particularly terrible example, since the choice was essentially between two right-wing politicians.