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Mapping Red Dead Redemption 2! Landmark Analysis Thread


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Made an update to the terrain map. Went in and fixed a few more issues. Added a more realistic colour pallet.      3D view: https://skfb.ly/6AXNp

I realise I don't have a good time of day, but note the gap in the floorboards in RDR1

I made this gif just to show the map matches. Credit goes to @TheWhiteHat for telling me about it!

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1 hour ago, Sausache said:

Rockstar either changed the map considerably in regards to the Grizzlies or the minimap is no longer reliable. Mt. Hagen was explicitly said to be in the Grizzlies. Where you positioned it isn't possible, because it's in the wrong region.

 

If they changed the map from what the leaked map is, the Grizzlies seem to have shifted northwest from where they originally were. Something like this:

 

Which begs a few more questions. Has the Dakota River moved as well? Either way what is in the area the Grizzlies leave behind? Does this mean that others areas have expanded, or have they shifted Cumberland and Roanoke northwest as well? That might explain similar problems we've seen in southern Roanoke around Mossy Flats. 

I mean, maybe things have changed, sure, but that's a bit much here.

Maybe I missed something, but the position of Hagen on the western side of the map comes from Dupzor's post identifying it as what was called Two Tacos? This also require Two Tacos to have been changed between the first trailer and now.
 

So either Two Tacos changed and everything was moved / the compas is wrong OR Hagen is more to the East. With that in mind, I think there's more chance we did something wrong.

PS: also, I don't think it's been discussed but the website banner for Hagen show like... small buildings + a road? I'm not sure if we would be able to see something on the map (I mean at least the road), but that might help pinpoint the location?

 e63443298d1d4ade863d56213e686466.jpg

Edited by Fachewachewa
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2 hours ago, Tonesta said:

 

I was thinking a post like this was in order....then I saw that you'd already done it. Nice job!

 

For me, though, there are two main pieces of evidence that I would add to the 'Against' column.

 

#1 New Austin is not on the leaked map, and other than a couple of place-name changes, I don't believe we've seen anything that suggests that the leaked map is not accurate.

Furthermore, the map shows precisely where the train lines run (again - none of which seems to have been contradicted by any of the trailers and screenshots we've seen) and they go absolutely nowhere near New Austin. It would seem to fit that the train line to Blackwater and on to New Austin is built between RDR and RDR2.....and that the toy train description is taking some liberties.....

Of course it's also possible that the train line to New Austin gets built during the game which would be super cool (although super complicated for the developers!)

 

#2 It wasn't mentioned in Monday's 'Frontier, Cities and Towns' teaser, which bore the quote " Discover some of the towns dotted across the vast and varied landscape of Red Dead Redemption 2; from the forests of West Elizabeth to the mountains of Ambarino to the plains of New Hanover to the swamps of Lemoyne."

 

 

Now like you - I have no idea which way this is ultimately going to fall. It could be that the leaked map is the entire map, and they've found a way to cram a small desert into it somewhere (island?). And that will still be cool - it's going to be a big, dense and beautiful map, even if that's all we get.

It's also possible that Rockstar have some big surprises up their sleeve and the map is going to be substantially different to anything yet imagined (although it was just for a couple of missions, I don't remember anyone predicting or leaking North Yankton until GTAV was very close to release).

 

I just worry that anyone who is convincing themselves that New Austin, and in particular Mexico, are going to be on the RDR2 map may be setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

Well, for the train tracks not being shown on the leaked map. It's easy, we know for a fact that the railroad will expand throughout the game. 

 

About your second point, of it now appearing on the frontier and towns teaser. They also didn't show van Horn and Blackwater...

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1 hour ago, DuPz0r said:

I've been wondering about the compass since we first started mapping big valley and grizzely intro. It could well be that the map has been extended since the leaked version. Or we're looking at it wrong and the peaks arent where we think they are...

 

27 minutes ago, Fachewachewa said:

I mean, maybe things have changed, sure, but that's a bit much here.

Maybe I missed something, but the position of Hagen on the western side of the map comes from Dupzor's post identifying it as what was called Two Tacos? This also require Two Tacos to have been changed between the first trailer and now.
 

So either Two Tacos changed and everything was moved / the compas is wrong OR Hagen is more to the East. With that in mind, I think there's more chance we did something wrong.

PS: also, I don't think it's been discussed but the website banner for Hagen show like... small buildings + a road? I'm not sure if we would be able to see something on the map (I mean at least the road), but that might help pinpoint the location?

 e63443298d1d4ade863d56213e686466.jpg

Good points, and all, but forget about all that for a second and just answer 2 questions:

1. Where is Arthur positioned on the map and which way is the camera facing in the Big Valley screenshot?

2. Is that Mt. Hagen on the other side of Hanging Dog Ranch from Arthur?

 

Forget about N-S-E-W. Just try to make sense of everything we already know about the map from spending 500+ hours staring at it, based on the answers to those two questions.

 

The map I marked up in my last post makes sense to me (regardless of N-S-E-W) when I imagine it relative to other landmarks we've established.

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7 minutes ago, Frivolous_Raven said:

Well, for the train tracks not being shown on the leaked map. It's easy, we know for a fact that the railroad will expand throughout the game. 

 

About your second point, of it now appearing on the frontier and towns teaser. They also didn't show van Horn and Blackwater...

Both fair points, and very plausible reasons why New Austin will be in the game, and Rockstar are just purposefully hiding it in their marketing material so far (except for the single reference in the toy train description).

 

Just saying that you could equally well go through and debunk all the evidence that New Austin is in the game, for example:

- The train description mentions New Austin as well as the other four areas.....but it's just a throwaway piece of marketing could be taking liberties with the truth, and describing the Red Dead world in general - as we know that New Austin in on the railway by 1911.

- The desert could be stuck on an island somewhere

- The reddit leak material, while the screenshots have been validated, is still mostly unproven

- We still have no idea how they're going to form the boundaries of the map, but rivers are likely as good a means as any.

 

Fact is we don't know for sure yet, and we're not going to know until either a) New Austin appears in the next trailer, or promotional material or b) October 26th.

 

Until then, everything about the map beyond what we've already been shown is just speculation......and people shouldn't pin all their hopes and dreams on speculation! There were plenty of people who, two weeks before the game came out, were still adamant that GTAV would have multiple cities.....and they were then the folks who were particularly angry and disappointed upon release when it didn't.

 

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3 hours ago, Tonesta said:

I just worry that anyone who is convincing themselves that New Austin, and in particular Mexico, are going to be on the RDR2 map may be setting themselves up for disappointment.

Basically that's what I was saying. I am totally with you.
Some other points to keep in mind:

There will be some naggers who will argue that in 1911 there hasn't been any tracks northbound from Tall Trees/Great Plains towards Big Valley.
So why should there be tracks in 1899?
I mean they probably will find an answer/solution for that, but it's still something to keep in mind.

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Maybe this image will explain it better. Forget about what the compass says. Maybe that's wrong. But, are you guys saying that this is what we're seeing in the Hanging Dog/Big Valley screen shot? We positively identified Mt. Hagen as the peak in the distance, and that Hanging Dog Ranch is between Arthur and Mt. Hagen in that screenshot. So, you think this map location is an accurate representation of what that screenshot shows?

 

flHPKDv.png

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39 minutes ago, Chinese Takeout said:

 

Good points, and all, but forget about all that for a second and just answer 2 questions:

1. Where is Arthur positioned on the map and which way is the camera facing in the Big Valley screenshot?

2. Is that Mt. Hagen on the other side of Hanging Dog Ranch from Arthur?

 

Forget about N-S-E-W. Just try to make sense of everything we already know about the map from spending 500+ hours staring at it, based on the answers to those two questions.

 

The map I marked up in my last post makes sense to me (regardless of N-S-E-W) when I imagine it relative to other landmarks we've established.

Oh I know, I've been following this thread on and off and I'm always impressed by you guys' work, I just wanted to play "devil's advocate" here, to make sure people didn't stick to things without questioning them.

I didn't realize Big Valley / Hanging Dog was already established, and yeah it sure looks like Hagen on the other side.

There's definitely something weird about all this, even if the mountain left of Hagen is Two Tacos and not Olympus, even if it's beyond the map's border.

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s1ICUD0.jpg

We interrupt the current map discussion to bring you the following important PSA:

This desert is NOT located on island inset map below. 

No chance.  Zip. Zilch.  Nada.

mt1A0QE.jpg

 

POINT ONE. Let's begin with basic biology.

The picture shows several things:  

1) a gila monster

2) organ pipe cacti

3) saguaro cacti

4) joshua trees

5) a buffalo or bull skull

6) some type of desert snake crawling out of said skull

 

Let's talk geographical distribution, the only places these plants grow and these animals live:

1) gila monster:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

2) organ pipe cacti:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

3) saguaro:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

4) joshua trees:  Sonora, Baja California, Arizona, California

5) buffalo/bulls:   anywhere in North America

6) desert snake:  the desert (granted, this little booger is too small to accurately ID, but it's probably safe to say somewhere in the deserts of Mexico or the American Southwest)

 

I was gonna try to draw a Venn diagram, but I'm guessing y'all have figured out it already says "AMERICAN SOUTHWEST AND/OR SONORA, MEXICO." 

 

 

gS3q22w.jpg

POINT TWO:   We already know they make rum on this island.   "CINCO TORRES, MAKERS OF THE FINEST GUARMA RUM."   Rum is made from sugarcane.  Sugarcane grows only in wet, humid, tropical climates; not arid deserts.  This island has place names that are both Spanish (Cinco Torres, El Hueco) and Haitian Creole (Le Vilaj).  This island is almost certainly located in the Caribbean.  It could well be based on Cuba or Puerto Rico, the biggest producers of sugarcane and rum in 1900; and that would make a whole lot of sense if there are story ties to the Spanish-American War that just happened in Cuba less than a year prior to the start of RDR2.  

 

POINT THREE:    The island is two squares wide. 

There's absolutely no reason to conjecture that the inset map suddenly veers wildly from the same scale as the rest of the map.  So a two-square island would be roughly the equivalent of riding from Blackwater to Beecher's Hope....only slightly smaller.   Those mountains in the distance on the desert map?  Unless they're knee-high in height, they're wayyyy farther away than 2 blocks.  

 

There's simply no way there's a desert on that island.  If anything, it will introduce a brand new terrain type to us -- tropical jungle.  

We STILL don't know for sure where the desert is.

But it sho ain't right here. 

 

Thank you.  Please continue

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1 minute ago, Chinese Takeout said:

Could the island be the surface of the moon?

I will neither confirm nor deny that Neil Armstrong was there.

I think it's been well proven that he drinks the hell out of Cinco Torres Guarma Rum though.

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TknriPa.jpgNmmfOKI.jpg

When contemplating our little Guarma Island, it's probably best to visualize it in terms of this.  And it's probably advisable to have a coconut-flavored boat drink in hand.  I know I sure will.

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5 hours ago, Nyfyr said:

Don’t have much proof but I think the small barn on the left might be Downes Ranch.

Listen to the man.

I think we have a winner.

 

Okay, so Hanging Dog Ranch is the one on Little Creek seen in Arthur's lovely panoramic ride across Valley View. 

But if THIS is Downes Ranch instead....the jigsaw pieces fall into place. 

hrkdY7v.jpg

4hQg3KL.jpg

Arthur's vantage point would put Mt. Hagen north, slightly northeast of his position in the pasture.

*EDIT:   Keep in mind that the jagged peaks lined in light green in that screenshot would be Beartooth Ridge.  Mt. Hagen itself is seen just behind and to the left of the barn, apparently perpetually shrouded in snowclouds.  

We can't tell from Arthur's angle, but Downes Ranch is actually atop a small plateau above the Dakota River.  This might help visualize Downes Ranch from above, the closest thing we'll get to an aerial shot:

GdIv86g.jpg

Edited by BretMaverick777
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1 hour ago, BretMaverick777 said:

s1ICUD0.jpg

We interrupt the current map discussion to bring you the following important PSA:

This desert is NOT located on island inset map below. 

No chance.  Zip. Zilch.  Nada.

mt1A0QE.jpg

 

POINT ONE. Let's begin with basic biology.

The picture shows several things:  

1) a gila monster

2) organ pipe cacti

3) saguaro cacti

4) joshua trees

5) a buffalo or bull skull

6) some type of desert snake crawling out of said skull

 

Let's talk geographical distribution, the only places these plants grow and these animals live:

1) gila monster:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

2) organ pipe cacti:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

3) saguaro:   Sonora, Baja California, Arizona

4) joshua trees:  Sonora, Baja California, Arizona, California

5) buffalo/bulls:   anywhere in North America

6) desert snake:  the desert (granted, this little booger is too small to accurately ID, but it's probably safe to say somewhere in the deserts of Mexico or the American Southwest)

 

I was gonna try to draw a Venn diagram, but I'm guessing y'all have figured out it already says "AMERICAN SOUTHWEST AND/OR SONORA, MEXICO." 

 

 

gS3q22w.jpg

POINT TWO:   We already know they make rum on this island.   "CINCO TORRES, MAKERS OF THE FINEST GUARMA RUM."   Rum is made from sugarcane.  Sugarcane grows only in wet, humid, tropical climates; not arid deserts.  This island has place names that are both Spanish (Cinco Torres, El Hueco) and Haitian Creole (Le Vilaj).  This island is almost certainly located in the Caribbean.  It could well be based on Cuba or Puerto Rico, the biggest producers of sugarcane and rum in 1900; and that would make a whole lot of sense if there are story ties to the Spanish-American War that just happened in Cuba less than a year prior to the start of RDR2.  

 

POINT THREE:    The island is two squares wide. 

There's absolutely no reason to conjecture that the inset map suddenly veers wildly from the same scale as the rest of the map.  So a two-square island would be roughly the equivalent of riding from Blackwater to Beecher's Hope....only slightly smaller.   Those mountains in the distance on the desert map?  Unless they're knee-high in height, they're wayyyy farther away than 2 blocks.  

 

There's simply no way there's a desert on that island.  If anything, it will introduce a brand new terrain type to us -- tropical jungle.  

We STILL don't know for sure where the desert is.

But it sho ain't right here. 

 

Thank you.  Please continue

Although I agree with almost all of the points you made I don't think the island is going to be only two squares. It's too small. This is probably a small picture of the map (?)

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Rockstar are probably being cagey about New Austin because they don't want to spoil key plot beats. 

I had no idea, at the time, that RDR1 would go south to Mexico for a huge period of the game, nor the wonderful sequence in which you arrive. 

If the writers had their druthers, they probably would have kept New Austin as a complete surprise (how great would that have been to experience!). I can imagine them have to compromise with the marketing department, though, who want to show it off in the gameplay trailer(s).

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43 minutes ago, arno_cat said:

Although I agree with almost all of the points you made I don't think the island is going to be only two squares. It's too small. This is probably a small picture of the map (?)

But why...?

 

Again, there's nothing at all on the inset map to indicate a change in scale.  The island is superimposed over the main map, but the dividing lines are still there to indicate it's the same scale.  

 

And yeah, we know a little bit got clipped off the top of the map, maybe one whole row.   There's missing names for landmarks, and trails that get cut off.   But do you honestly think our intrepid map leaker would be so sloppy that he left out whole swaths of map, including a noticeably larger island? 

 

Most of us still believe the inset is just a North Yankton style one-off.  A significantly different terrain type, a location significantly distant in space and maybe time from the main map as to be unreachable.   Just a brief side jaunt, maybe flashback(s), maybe intro, maybe outro, maybe interlude, hell, maybe dream sequence.  That sort of off-map locale wouldn't need to be bigger than two blocks, with the short amount of time we'd spend there. 

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17 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

But why...?

 

Again, there's nothing at all on the inset map to indicate a change in scale.  The island is superimposed over the main map, but the dividing lines are still there to indicate it's the same scale.  

 

And yeah, we know a little bit got clipped off the top of the map, maybe one whole row.   There's missing names for landmarks, and trails that get cut off.   But do you honestly think our intrepid map leaker would be so sloppy that he left out whole swaths of map, including a noticeably larger island? 

 

Most of us still believe the inset is just a North Yankton style one-off.  A significantly different terrain type, a location significantly distant in space and maybe time from the main map as to be unreachable.   Just a brief side jaunt, maybe flashback(s), maybe intro, maybe outro, maybe interlude, hell, maybe dream sequence.  That sort of off-map locale wouldn't need to be bigger than two blocks, with the short amount of time we'd spend there. 

couldnt the map expand up north ? with the square labeling start at letter H wouldnt they start the map from A ?

 

there could alot more up north no ?

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Just now, seegkilla said:

couldnt the map expand up north with the square labeling start at letter H wouldnt they start the map from A

 

there could alot more up north no ?

That's what I just said.   And again the question:   does anybody really think the leaker would leave out that much info?  

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7 minutes ago, BretMaverick777 said:

That's what I just said.   And again the question:   does anybody really think the leaker would leave out that much info?  

maybe the leaked map wasn't finished ? maybe it was very early stages of the development ?

anyway we will find out very soon :)

 

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Considering the leaked map picture is missing at minimum a G row, the “island” could have another two squares above what we see which would make sense when you compare the islands land mass to the highlighted area of Blackwater (if were sticking with the same grid scaling), somewhere we’re familiar exploring. That’s not a very large space even when considering a North Yankton type location.

Edited by SeniorDerp
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2 hours ago, arno_cat said:

Although I agree with almost all of the points you made I don't think the island is going to be only two squares. It's too small. This is probably a small picture of the map (?)

I think you are right. There is also Sisika Penitentiary which is about one and half block wide... I think we gonna see huge "Guarma" island. There is no doubt that R* hiding something, because we arent see anything about desertS or island.. So, who knows... maybe all what we know this far, is just 2/3 of all.

 

 EDIT: ...And it is good to remember, that they doesnt show us anything below Saint Denis or anything from Annesburgh to northeast... is there something so big that if we see that perspective, then there is no suprise anymore ;)

Edited by GTARDR
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8 hours ago, Tonesta said:

 

I just worry that anyone who is convincing themselves that New Austin, and in particular Mexico, are going to be on the RDR2 map may be setting themselves up for disappointment.

I don't understand the need for people to save us from disappointment. If we want to believe all the data put in front of us that New Austin is in the game, then why spend your time convincing us otherwise? Just seems like odd the thing to do. <shrug>

 

Back to mapping. Can someone help me understand how this photo matches with the leaked map? This valley/gorge leading down to Hanging Dog Ranch doesn't seem to be on the leaked map. Are we sure that's Hanging Dog Ranch?

 

LdUcuOt.jpg

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34 minutes ago, SeniorDerp said:

Considering the leaked map picture is missing at minimum a G row, the “island” could have another two squares above what we see which would make sense when you compare the islands land mass to the highlighted area of Blackwater (if were sticking with the same grid scaling), somewhere we’re familiar exploring. That’s not a very large space even when considering a North Yankton type location.

Blackwater occupies just one block.   St. Denis takes up two.  I'd say that's a pretty big area.

 

And you're assuming the purpose of the island is exploration.   I don't think that's necessarily the case.  

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the island probably might be accessible by boat any time, i hope, like "fast travel".

 

But concerning the desert i fear that it is not connected to the big map .. i say "fear", because i'd really like to see it connected 😕 well, if not, i sure can live with it, but i'd like to visit it any time .. however, we know at least there IS a large desert (because what else does "sweeping deserts" mean?) and it will be a ton of fun to play within!

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7 hours ago, Frivolous_Raven said:

Well, for the train tracks not being shown on the leaked map. It's easy, we know for a fact that the railroad will expand throughout the game. 

 

About your second point, of it now appearing on the frontier and towns teaser. They also didn't show van Horn and Blackwater...

CITATION NEEDED

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People may have been too much locked up in the idea of five state(railroads) and mountains ... and therefore forget the desert(S) and the island we do not know anything about. But yeah, hope we see much much more we could imagine.
 

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6 hours ago, Chinese Takeout said:

Maybe this image will explain it better. Forget about what the compass says. Maybe that's wrong. But, are you guys saying that this is what we're seeing in the Hanging Dog/Big Valley screen shot? We positively identified Mt. Hagen as the peak in the distance, and that Hanging Dog Ranch is between Arthur and Mt. Hagen in that screenshot. So, you think this map location is an accurate representation of what that screenshot shows?

 

flHPKDv.png

I sse what you're saying.  Arthur would be in m04 and Hagen would potentially be in i07 from that angle.

Could be that we've miss-identified the Ranch or the location on the mountain.

 

 

1 hour ago, AzBat360 said:

Back to mapping. Can someone help me understand how this photo matches with the leaked map? This valley/gorge leading down to Hanging Dog Ranch doesn't seem to be on the leaked map. Are we sure that's Hanging Dog Ranch?

 

LdUcuOt.jpg

 

There is no way we're 100% sure it is Hanging Dog Ranch, but its the only place that makes sense on the map.

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On photo above, upper left side, it looks like those trees are really tall or distance is less than we think. If I was a betting man, I could swear it is possible to make a shot from Morgan's position and kill someone across the valley,  provided man has a good scoped rifle.

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14 minutes ago, DuPz0r said:

I sse what you're saying.  Arthur would be in m04 and Hagen would potentially be in i07 from that angle.

Could be that we've miss-identified the Ranch or the location on the mountain.

 

 

 

There is no way we're 100% sure it is Hanging Dog Ranch, but its the only place that makes sense on the map.

Like @Nyfyr said....consider that the red barn could be Downes Ranch, not Hanging Dog.   See a few posts back.

 

It's possible that the buildings down in the Little Creek Valley actually represent Watsons Cabin, but just from name alone, Hanging Dog Ranch makes a lot more sense.

 

As for that road up into the mountains, I'd say a safe bet would be the trail up from Little Creek that leads up to the Millesani Claim and on to Lake Isabella. 

4W2wqko.jpg

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Apropos of nothing, I took it upon myself, earlier today, to section off the peaks in this shot into 5 relative distance groups in case it would help me figure anything out. Posting it here for posterity.

 

Qp02rhu.jpg

 

9o5BpCj.gif

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