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Mapping Red Dead Redemption 2! Landmark Analysis Thread


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Made an update to the terrain map. Went in and fixed a few more issues. Added a more realistic colour pallet.      3D view: https://skfb.ly/6AXNp

I realise I don't have a good time of day, but note the gap in the floorboards in RDR1

I made this gif just to show the map matches. Credit goes to @TheWhiteHat for telling me about it!

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7 hours ago, AzBat360 said:

I assumed the straighter line was the actual river. So Shady Belle would sit on the NE bank & that one pic was facing SW. The other crooked lines to me were just oxbow lakes. But I could see how the straighter line could be seen as a border between Scarlett Meadows & Bayou NWA. I might have assumed that too had it not been for that pic from the caravan camp.

Oxbows aren't the same as meanders, though....oxbows are outlying crescent-shaped "lakes" created when really really old rivers cut off a meander from the main stream.  There's no natural way at all you could have a meandering river like Bayou Nwa's central one parallel a straight(ish) one.  I mean, the good people of Lemoyne could have conceivably dug out a long canal there to make a navigable river for boat traffic to avoid the meanders and natural dangers of the bayou, but that's a stretch.  Plus, the river in our camp photos doesn't look manmade at all, so....canal unlikely.  

 

That leaves only two camps on the leaked map that are situated on the NE bank of a river:  Beaver Hollow and Hanging Dog Ranch.  And the terrain in those camp photos is definitely all wrong for Hanging Dog Ranch --- no snowcap mountains looming over the camp, no pasture land, let alone an actual ranch.   Process of elimination:   I gotta stick with the camp in question being Beaver Hollow.   It just fits the equation. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, MarlboroMan1995 said:

Remember that supposed leak from some time ago (the one where the guy was tired of life and his job at R*). He said there were TWO big cities I think. One would have to be St. Denis, the other maybe Blackwater. Could it be there is actually another rather large city somewhere else, like possibly in ambrino? Can’t be Valentine ,and I’m personally leaning towards it being Blackwater, if this guy was even telling the truth. I think some of his stuff has been confirmed. What you guys think?

It's exciting to think of another city in RDR2, but I wouldn't bet on it.   Yeah, maybe he meant Blackwater, but I'd hardly call that a city.   We know next to nothing about Ambarino, whether it's a Southwest Territory or a Mexican state, but I'm 100% sure it's a new map....so anything is possible.  There's surely going to be at least a coupla more small towns in the new state, but I don't necessarily foresee a St. Denis sized city being kept under wraps.  Or even making sense for another frontier region.  St. Denis makes sense because Lemoyne is, in the main, "civilization."  It's settled America, Industrial Age America.  Thus, riverport cities like St. Denis and Van Horn, industrial centers like Annesburg, and southern-fried towns like Rhodes create that sense of civilized America, as opposed to the regions further West, where there "ain't no such thang as 'civilized.'"  

 

But if I gambled on a longshot, I'd say it's possible that there's some surprises in store for New Austin....it may not be your granpappy's New Austin.  I've wondered about the possibility of a brand new region there....not just Hennigan's Stead, Cholla Springs, Gaptooth Ridge, and Rio Bravo.  Maybe there's a new district, and it could feature an actual state capital for New Austin.  Maybe a bustling dusty hub of the cattle industry, like Dallas-Ft. Worth, with tons of stockyards where all the ranchers buy and sell their longhorns and cowboys saddle up for the rodeo.  Maybe some old Spanish charm like San Antonio, with the Alamo and Riverwalk.   Just daydreaming here, but maybe.

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If the Grizzlies was in Ambarino, wouldn’t they have said so in that Wanted Poster of Dutch? Just like how they confirmed Big valley is in West Elisabeth. Instead, it’s just The Grizzlies.

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2 minutes ago, Nyfyr said:

If the Grizzlies was in Ambarino, wouldn’t they have said so in that Wanted Poster of Dutch? Just like how they confirmed Big valley is in West Elisabeth. Instead, it’s just The Grizzlies.

Yeah, that's my thinking as well.  The phrasing on Dutch's wanted poster pretty much solidifies West Elizabeth as Great Plains, Tall Trees, Big Valley, and The Grizzlies.  Ambarino is somewhere else, and Ambarino is Mexican-influenced.  My only question is whether or not it's still a Mexican province, or a former one.  

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11 minutes ago, Nyfyr said:

If the Grizzlies was in Ambarino, wouldn’t they have said so in that Wanted Poster of Dutch? Just like how they confirmed Big valley is in West Elisabeth. Instead, it’s just The Grizzlies.

True...but Blackwater was just BLACKWATER in the poster too.

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You guys might want to check out Interview With A Vampire - It's partially set in 19th century New Orleans.

Edited by Little Big Man
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1 hour ago, Little Big Man said:

You guys might want to check out Interview With A Vampire - It's partially set in 19th century New Orleans.

I mentioned this movie way back in this or another thread...I totally consider that film to be a western, at least partially. Theres no question that it intersects the genre.

Edited by Chinese Takeout
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5 hours ago, Little Big Man said:

You guys might want to check out Interview With A Vampire - It's partially set in 19th century New Orleans.

DLC Vampires confirmed! 😄

 

It's maybe a film reference in RDR2 because it is the same plantation house in the film and the game

 

FPdvEmG.jpg

 

I have already written two times about Oak Alley Plantation in this topic: the mansion (in 2017) and  its oak alley (few days ago)

Edited by koeklin
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11 hours ago, Little Big Man said:

Purple = border lines, blue = water. I think we established this back on page 1.

Yes but that area is a bit ambiguous. There is some purple but blue too. The east side of the line lacks purple. So it's a confusing spot. You're more than likely to be right but of the other caravan spots on the leaked map I feel Shady Belle fits the best. It could be Newberry Creek & they moved the placement. Beaver Hollow just looks too far up the river for me.

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2 hours ago, Chinese Takeout said:

I mentioned this movie way back in this or another thread...I totally consider that film to be a western, at least partially. Theres no question that it intersects the genre.

Vampires are all about the human cattle. They're basically ranchers.

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3 hours ago, koeklin said:

DLC Vampires confirmed! 😄

 

It's maybe a film reference in RDR2 because it is the same plantation house in the film and the game

 

FPdvEmG.jpg

 

I have already written two times about Oak Alley Plantation in this topic: the mansion (in 2017) and  its oak alley (few days ago)

Oak Alley has been in other famous movies too.  The Blue and The Gray miniseries, maybe Django Unchained also.

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8 hours ago, Nyfyr said:

If the Grizzlies was in Ambarino, wouldn’t they have said so in that Wanted Poster of Dutch? Just like how they confirmed Big valley is in West Elisabeth. Instead, it’s just The Grizzlies.

They would have said that if Dutch entered the Grizzlies via Ambarino, but he didn't. He entered the Grizzlies via the Big Valley section of West Elizabeth. If he had entered the Grizzlies from New Hanover, I suppose the wanted poster would have said that, too, but apparently it was from West Elizabeth...which makes sense if the original robbery takes place in Blackwater, which the poster says it did.

 

8 hours ago, BretMaverick777 said:

Yeah, that's my thinking as well.  The phrasing on Dutch's wanted poster pretty much solidifies West Elizabeth as Great Plains, Tall Trees, Big Valley, and The Grizzlies.  Ambarino is somewhere else, and Ambarino is Mexican-influenced.  My only question is whether or not it's still a Mexican province, or a former one.  

IDK, I still don't see it that way. To me, the phrasing on Dutch's wanted poster solidifies the fact that The Grizzlies extends through West Elizabeth, and is not CONTAINED BY West Elizabeth. It says, 

Quote

"Last seen heading north into the GRIZZLIES from BIG VALLEY, West Elizabeth."

<INTO> the Grizzlies <FROM> BV, WE. There are many ways into and out of the Grizzlies mountain range...these guys entered into the range from the general location of Big Valley, which is in West Elizabeth. I would agree with you if the poster read: "...into the Grizzlies, Big Valley, West Elizabeth." Similar to saying "meet me in Central Park, New York City, NY." As it stands, it seems to me that it merely confirms that 1) Big Valley is a part of West Elizabeth, 2) The Grizzlies extend through that area, and 3) Dutch and company went that-a-way, up into the Grizzlies. And I don't know how Ambarino figures into this discussion at all.

 

At any rate, we've seen since the original trailer, and through all the subsequent videos and screens that The Grizzlies extend across the entire northern section of the map, irrespective of where Ambarino ends up being:

cy80atQ.gif

Edited by Chinese Takeout
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4 minutes ago, Nyfyr said:

If we look at the leaked map, maybe the ‘intro’ part of the Grizzlies (in white) is a part of West Elisabeth, and the grey part is New Hanover.

Yeah, I think that's certainly possible. So far we don't have any confirmation of which states run across the northern border of the map. Heck...West Elizabeth could run the entire northern length of the map. I can't wait to find out how the 5 states are distributed across the map.

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2 minutes ago, Chinese Takeout said:

Yeah, I think that's certainly possible. So far we don't have any confirmation of which states run across the northern border of the map. Heck...West Elizabeth could run the entire northern length of the map. I can't wait to find out how the 5 states are distributed across the map.

West Elisabeth would look really weird if it has all of the Grizzlies. Dunno, the map would look better if New Hanover either had half or all of the Grizzlies to me. Yeah it will be cool to finally see the full map when the game comes out, inclouding the part of The Grizzlies far north that we can’t see in the leaked version. I also hope Ambarino is its own part that we haven’t seen yet, just like New Austin is.

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36 minutes ago, Chinese Takeout said:

 

IDK, I still don't see it that way. To me, the phrasing on Dutch's wanted poster solidifies the fact that The Grizzlies extends through West Elizabeth, and is not CONTAINED BY West Elizabeth. It says, 

<INTO> the Grizzlies <FROM> BV, WE. There are many ways into and out of the Grizzlies mountain range...these guys entered into the range from the general location of Big Valley, which is in West Elizabeth. I would agree with you if the poster read: "...into the Grizzlies, Big Valley, West Elizabeth." Similar to saying "meet me in Central Park, New York City, NY." As it stands, it seems to me that it merely confirms that 1) Big Valley is a part of West Elizabeth, 2) The Grizzlies extend through that area, and 3) Dutch and company went that-a-way, up into the Grizzlies. And I don't know how Ambarino figures into this discussion at all.

 

It enters the discussion simply because if the theory that the Grizzlies are Ambarino/part of Ambarino is true, the wanted poster would have alluded to that in the same way that it alluded to Big Valley being part of West Elizabeth.  TBH, the wanted poster's syntax is guilty of some awkward TMI....it's like saying "the gang were last seen in The Panhandle, Texas."  We don't generally describe regions within a state as some sort of separate geographical location; but RDR does.   So by the same token, there would have been reference to "The Grizzlies, Ambarino," if they *were* in Ambarino. 

 

The Grizzlies are simply too wild and too unincorporated and too unsettled to logically be considered part of a given state, let alone its own state.   There's just no civilization there, period.  No roads; just mountain trails that are gonna be hard as hell to navigate....probably by foot, leading our horses rather than riding them.  One rail line that looks like it's just an express that pushes across Bacchus Bridge and thru Granite Pass before getting the hell out into more civilized pastures.   There's no indications of any junctions or stops for that express anywhere...just a Dakota River bypass.  (Guess it was cheaper to blast thru the mountains than cut thru the Cumberland Forest.) No towns at all.  No visible settlements.   Without that, what kind of economy would the Grizzlies have?   I suspect the main reason we'll travel to the Grizzlies at all is to prospect for gold, silver, and gemstones, the old-fashioned way; and to hunt and fish the rarer breeds.   That, and to have a legitimate hidey hole from the law.   (Note that the posse in the wanted poster didn't dare pursue Dutch's Gang any further than Big Valley.  They know better than that.)   How, and why, would an utterly wild and uncivilized high mountain region like The Grizzlies qualify for statehood?   Uncle Sam wouldn't want any part of that savage land.

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37 minutes ago, Chinese Takeout said:

They would have said that if Dutch entered the Grizzlies via Ambarino, but he didn't. He entered the Grizzlies via the Big Valley section of West Elizabeth. If he had entered the Grizzlies from New Hanover, I suppose the wanted poster would have said that, too, but apparently it was from West Elizabeth...which makes sense if the original robbery takes place in Blackwater, which the poster says it did.

 

IDK, I still don't see it that way. To me, the phrasing on Dutch's wanted poster solidifies the fact that The Grizzlies extends through West Elizabeth, and is not CONTAINED BY West Elizabeth. It says, 

<INTO> the Grizzlies <FROM> BV, WE. There are many ways into and out of the Grizzlies mountain range...these guys entered into the range from the general location of Big Valley, which is in West Elizabeth. I would agree with you if the poster read: "...into the Grizzlies, Big Valley, West Elizabeth." Similar to saying "meet me in Central Park, New York City, NY." As it stands, it seems to me that it merely confirms that 1) Big Valley is a part of West Elizabeth, 2) The Grizzlies extend through that area, and 3) Dutch and company went that-a-way, up into the Grizzlies. And I don't know how Ambarino figures into this discussion at all.

 

At any rate, we've seen since the original trailer, and through all the subsequent videos and screens that The Grizzlies extend across the entire northern section of the map, irrespective of where Ambarino ends up being:

cy80atQ.gif

Wow. Looking at that map with the grizzlies cutting right across to New Austin just gave me an idea: 

 

If Amborino IS Colorado and is also north of new Austin, then that would make sense. 

 

Since The rocky mountains (hear grizzlies) do go all the way down through Colorado to skim New Mexico.

 

Based on this I'd also theorize that the game begins out in the desert with the gang being chased into the mountains.

 

any thoughts?

Edited by letsgoraptors
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1 minute ago, Nyfyr said:

West Elisabeth would look really weird if it has all of the Grizzlies. Dunno, the map would look better if New Hanover either had half or all of the Grizzlies to me. Yeah it will be cool to finally see the full map when the game comes out, inclouding the part of The Grizzlies far north that we can’t see in the leaked version. I also hope Ambarino is its own part that we haven’t seen yet, just like New Austin is.

Well, we know New Hanover can't have ALL of the Grizzlies, because we know at least some of them reside in West Elizabeth. But, yeah, I don't think W.E. runs all across the top. (I also don't KNOW that it doesn't, lol)

Yeah, IDK, I kinda feel like we're all saying similar things. The bottom line for me, I guess, can be summed up like this:

  1. What are The Grizzlies?
    1. A range of mountains
  2. Where are the Grizzlies?
    1. They run across the top of the map
  3. What states do they run through?
    1. Don't know, except at least part of them are in West Elizabeth
  4. Where the hell is Ambarino?
    1. No clue
  5. When will we find out?
    1. Not later than 10/26/18 (I hope).
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The name 'the Grizzlies' was never known before the leaked map right?

 

When that Dutch Wanted posted came out 2 weeks ago the programmer from the canceled RDRV project pointed out how the 'Grizzlies' is actually referenced in the RDR files.

The textures that are used in the Tall Tree area are abbreviated with the letters 'gri'. (Cholla Springs is 'cho' for instance and 'die' for Diez Coronas etc.)

 

That means that Rockstar already had the name 'Grizzlies' in mind way back during development of the first RDR? Any theories on this? Did they rename it to Tall Trees?

 

I've had these textures saved for ages, just never paid attention to the names.

I1IRC3H.jpg

Edited by Jestic
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@JesticI believe an NPC says something along the lines of "I would love to explore the Grizzlies" while sitting around a campfire. I haven't personally heard it to confirm, but it's something I've seen mentioned here and on Reddit a few times. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, INFERNO E100 said:

It's amazing people can't see the difference.

 

Even in areas where the boarder and river cross you can see the river under the purple boarder. Like how bad are your monitors that they blend into one shade!

 

Evan on that recoloured map they got it wrong and created an island near saltwater stand

Some of us are colourblind, I have a hard time differentiating certain colours from each other such as blue/purple. So I understand why some people might be confused.

 

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37 minutes ago, Dick Justice said:

@JesticI believe an NPC says something along the lines of "I would love to explore the Grizzlies" while sitting around a campfire. I haven't personally heard it to confirm, but it's something I've seen mentioned here and on Reddit a few times. 

 

 

If that's true, nobody has added that in information to the Red Dead wiki, as far as I could see, which is odd.

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1 hour ago, Jestic said:

The name 'the Grizzlies' was never known before the leaked map right?

 

When that Dutch Wanted posted came out 2 weeks ago the programmer from the canceled RDRV project pointed out how the 'Grizzlies' is actually referenced in the RDR files.

The textures that are used in the Tall Tree area are abbreviated with the letters 'gri'. (Cholla Springs is 'cho' for instance and 'die' for Diez Coronas etc.)

 

That means that Rockstar already had the name 'Grizzlies' in mind way back during development of the first RDR? Any theories on this? Did they rename it to Tall Trees?

 

I've had these textures saved for ages, just never paid attention to the names.

I1IRC3H.jpg

Fascinating.

It makes sense, but we can now safely say that Cochinay, Nekoti Rock, and the other mountains in Tall Trees are officially part of the Grizzly range. Which should also by extension apply to the ridges in Big Valley. 

 

Thanks for the info....I learned something new. ☺

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1 hour ago, Dick Justice said:

@JesticI believe an NPC says something along the lines of "I would love to explore the Grizzlies" while sitting around a campfire. I haven't personally heard it to confirm, but it's something I've seen mentioned here and on Reddit a few times. 

 

 

 

Interesting. So we have no clue who this NPC is? The audio wave containers are separated by gender, race and a generic description, often occupation. Maybe there are more lines in there talking about the Grizzlies.

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Do you guys think maybe.. just maybe there's a possibility we might get a gameplay video outlining the different territories like with Mafia III??

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9 hours ago, Jestic said:

The name 'the Grizzlies' was never known before the leaked map right?

 

When that Dutch Wanted posted came out 2 weeks ago the programmer from the canceled RDRV project pointed out how the 'Grizzlies' is actually referenced in the RDR files.

The textures that are used in the Tall Tree area are abbreviated with the letters 'gri'. (Cholla Springs is 'cho' for instance and 'die' for Diez Coronas etc.)

 

That means that Rockstar already had the name 'Grizzlies' in mind way back during development of the first RDR? Any theories on this? Did they rename it to Tall Trees?

 

I've had these textures saved for ages, just never paid attention to the names.

I1IRC3H.jpg

 

That's a great find. Is there any other textures with prefix names from RDR1?

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14 hours ago, Chinese Takeout said:

Well, we know New Hanover can't have ALL of the Grizzlies, because we know at least some of them reside in West Elizabeth. But, yeah, I don't think W.E. runs all across the top. (I also don't KNOW that it doesn't, lol)

Yeah, IDK, I kinda feel like we're all saying similar things. The bottom line for me, I guess, can be summed up like this:

  1. What are The Grizzlies?
    1. A range of mountains
  2. Where are the Grizzlies?
    1. They run across the top of the map
  3. What states do they run through?
    1. Don't know, except at least part of them are in West Elizabeth
  4. Where the hell is Ambarino?
    1. No clue
  5. When will we find out?
    1. Not later than 10/26/18 (I hope).

Thanks to that knowledge injection about the RDR1 Tall Trees textures being labelled "gri" for Grizzlies, we now know that even the mountains in Tall Trees in RDR1 (Cochinay, Nekoti Rock) were intended to be part of the Grizzlies as well.   So we can safely say that pretty much EVERY mountain you see on the leaked RDR2 map is part of an unbroken Grizzlies range, which extends well outside the borders of that map also.  So Tall Trees, Big Valley, upper Cumberland, upper Roanoke, not to mention obvi "The Grizzlies" themselves.....are The Grizzlies.  

 

That indicates to me that it's been a mistake all along for us to even try to interpret "The Grizzlies" and "The Grizzlies Intro" as some sort of political region (i.e., state).  ALL of the mountains are The Grizzlies.  And yes, you're absolutely right that they extend through different states, including West Elizabeth, New Hanover, and Lemoyne.  That's why separating just the two Grizzlies regions (Grizzlies and Grizzlies Intro) into an entirely self-contained state (with no visible infrastructure, economy, or even civilization) called Ambarino makes even LESS sense.   Ambarino has nothing to do with the Grizzlies, guaranteed:  it IS the desert.  It's just either the Desert Southwest of the USA, or it's in Mexico.  Either way, Ambarino is a new map, guaranteed. 

 

In terms of political divisions, I think this map makes a lot more sense.

The (literal) gray areas of The Grizzlies would be claimed by West Elizabeth, as pretty much everything north of the Dakota River.  Thus, Great Plains, Tall Trees, Big Valley, and Grizzlies plus Grizzlies Intro.

New Hanover would be The Heartlands and Cumberland Forest.

Lemoyne would be the South.  Culturally speaking, there's just no separating Scarlett Meadows, Bayou Nwa, and Roanoke Ridge.  (And Bluegill Marsh, but imho, that hardly constitutes a separate region anyway.  But it's whatever.)

New Austin is New Austin.

Nuevo Paraiso, which may or may not make a comeback in RDR2, is in Mexico, of course.

That leaves Ambarino to be either the brownout area west of the RDR2 map, or the brownout area south of the RDR2 map.  It just depends on how literal Rockstar wants to be about "five States"....if it's truly an American state, then Ambarino will be to the west.  Otherwise, look for Ambarino to be a brand new Mexican region. 

Either way, that gives us a whole new region to explore, and a much bigger RDR2 map overall.  And isn't that a good thing, people?   🤠

0thCw5E.jpg

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