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SophistiKat

Political Correctness

Recommended Posts

Melchior

I don't know in what context you'd ever be 'critiquing Islam' that wasn't racially charged in some way. Policy discussions about the integration of Muslims into Western society are incredibly rare, boring and complicated and are more or less pretty removed from the religion itself. Most of the issues in question are regional things anyway. Like, do you really not see how this is mostly just an expression of xenophobic mass panic? Should "is Islam good or whatever" be a matter of public debate?

 

Also Tommy Robinson and the EDL are drunk racist football hooligans who apparently "make some good points."

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Eutyphro
4 hours ago, Melchior said:

I don't know in what context you'd ever be 'critiquing Islam' that wasn't racially charged in some way.

You assert this but you don't really provide any relevant argument or evidence for it, because you're really just race baiting.
 

Quote

Like, do you really not see how this is mostly just an expression of xenophobic mass panic?

Within the mass panic there are certainly xenophobic/bigoted/racist elements. There is no doubt about that. But it is unreasonable to pretend all questioning of muslim integration in Western countries, or critique of Islam as a doctrine, is xenophobic. Much of the interesting Islam critics are former muslims, or former radical muslims who have become moderate, and to pretend they are being 'xenophobic' is pretty much insane. But among non muslims there are also many who see legitimate concerns with Islam, and to pretend they "are all racist" is regressive race baiting.

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Twang.

Islam as a religion deserves as much criticism as, if not more than, any other religion, that's true. The Abrahamic ones especially are still rooted in Medieval philosophy. The only difference is that many muslims live where such philosophies are still valid, thanks in no small part to a century of western and Russian/Soviet meddling, plunging their homelands into a pit of anarchy and despotism. Can't blame them for not developing liberal reforms when their governments rarely last for more than a generation.

 

What's absurd, though, is to think they can't possibly integrate. Humans are remarkably adaptive and resilient. This idea seems to be based on little more than irrational fear of the sharia law boogeyman. Give them a generation and they'll be no more or less a threat to American culture than any other ethnic or religious minority. Irish? Catholic? Latter Day Saints? Germans? The Dutch? Chinese? It's been quite a while since anyone assigned some weird conspiracy theory to those groups (and those that did weren't exactly the best company to keep), and yet they function perfectly well in the modern USA. The only way to really f*ck up their integration is to alienate them and force them into some sort of underclass (for example: African-Americans, Latinos). Integration is a two-way street, you know. I can't help but notice that those groups are a little more melanin-rich than the examples of integrated minorities, which seems more than a bit coincidental. You call it race-baiting, but you could just as easily call it pattern recognition.

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Doctor Holliday
2 hours ago, Twang. said:

What's absurd, though, is to think they can't possibly integrate. Humans are remarkably adaptive and resilient. This idea seems to be based on little more than irrational fear of the sharia law boogeyman. Give them a generation and they'll be no more or less a threat to American culture than any other ethnic or religious minority. Irish? Catholic? Latter Day Saints? Germans? The Dutch? Chinese? It's been quite a while since anyone assigned some weird conspiracy theory to those groups (and those that did weren't exactly the best company to keep), and yet they function perfectly well in the modern USA.

Can I challenge this notion without being labeled Islamophobic?

I have no issue with Islamic people or their faith on an individual basis but when it comes to mass-assimilation into Western culture? You have to be naive to think that Islam doesn't present unique challenges that were not a concern within the Irish or Catholic or LDS or German or Dutch or Asian communities. And it's not just the pigment density of their skin.

 

During the 'moment' of their respective integrations, the other cultures or ethnic groups you mentioned were not already locked into a bloody ideological civil war that is spilling across political boundaries around the world. Catholics and Irish and even Chinese only had to overcome the obstacle of being slightly different in appearance and demeanor. Islam has to overcome the obstacle of being even MORE different in appearance in addition to an even FURTHER removed societal identity. When the Christians were integrating they had already endured their reformation. Martin Luther already had his revolution and it was relatively peaceful. Islam appears to be reckoning with it's cultural revolution as we speak and it's been anything but peaceful. It's yielded rivers of blood that has been mostly spilled by innocent women and children. Christians extracted their share of needless blood and terror but it was literally generations ago. They've had time to work on their good press and dull the sharpened edges of fundamentalism. We don't exactly have to worry about a radical Christianity Dictatorship getting its hands onto a nuclear device. But Islam still happens to be stuck in this cesspit.

 

I'm not afraid of Sharia.

I'm afraid of irrational religious actors who believe in the apocalypse and would welcome it and potentially have the means to produce it.

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Eutyphro
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Twang. said:

Islam as a religion deserves as much criticism as, if not more than, any other religion, that's true. The Abrahamic ones especially are still rooted in Medieval philosophy. The only difference is that many muslims live where such philosophies are still valid, thanks in no small part to a century of western and Russian/Soviet meddling, plunging their homelands into a pit of anarchy and despotism. Can't blame them for not developing liberal reforms when their governments rarely last for more than a generation.

They deserve equal criticism, but they are not the same. The figure of Muhammad is vastly different from Jesus, and the Quran is far more violent than the New Testament. The argument that geopolitical influences have ruined liberalism in the Middle-East is true, but simultaneously the possibility of an enlightened Islam has to be proven to be able to last. Currently the fact that Iran and Saudi-Arabia are the major power centers and also the sources of Sunni and Shia orthodoxy and radicalism, is turning the entire region more conservative and radical. Part of this proces is likely also anti Western sentiment, where they are unwilling to adopt Western enlightened liberalism, because of the anger they have towards the United States, and muslims seem to increasingly identify in opposition to the West.
 

Quote

What's absurd, though, is to think they can't possibly integrate.

To be fair though, the integration of Muslims in the US (where I think you are from) has been much more successful than in Europe, for several reasons. Firstly the US has a very strict meritocratic immigration system, and didn't import vast amounts of low skilled workers and refugees, but high skilled ones. Secondly, the relative amount of muslims in the US is far smaller than in most European countries. You can take a look at how Turkish people voted in the referendum on Erdogan in the US compared to the Netherlands, and the difference is vast. From what I remember in the US only 20% voted pro Erdogan, and in the Netherlands 70%. The European situation where low skilled muslim migrants have become parallel societies doesn't exist in the US at all, and US ghettos are populated by different demographics.

 

Muslims in Europe haven't assimilated very well, and many of the later generations are becoming more conservative than their parents. All of that is worsened by alienation by right wing rhetoric. The right wing rhetoric is a response to actual issues with integration that were being covered up by mainstream politics and media, and a response to Islamic terrorism. Islamic terrorism has been escalated by US meddling in the region. But Islamic doctrine is an aspect that can't be removed from the equation either.
 

Quote

 I can't help but notice that those groups are a little more melanin-rich than the examples of integrated minorities, which seems more than a bit coincidental. You call it race-baiting, but you could just as easily call it pattern recognition.

It's pattern recognition that race plays a role in the real world, and that people aren't color blind. What is race baiting and regressive is pretending that if we criticize the religion of melanin rich peoples, that we're in actuality criticizing their melanin richness, and deeming them inferior. It's incredibly demeaning and even racist to pretend melanin rich people can't handle criticism. This race baiting tendency originates in a complex of white saviorism, where white progressives want to save helpless victims. What they don't seem to notice is how demeaning that practice is.

Edited by Eutyphro

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Japseye
On 6/4/2018 at 1:54 PM, Eutyphro said:

You assert this but you don't really provide any relevant argument or evidence for it, because you're really just race baiting.
 

But it is unreasonable to pretend all questioning of muslim integration in Western countries, or critique of Islam as a doctrine, is xenophobic. Much of the interesting Islam critics are former muslims, or former radical muslims who have become moderate, and to pretend they are being 'xenophobic' is pretty much insane. But among non muslims there are also many who see legitimate concerns with Islam, and to pretend they "are all racist" is regressive race baiting.

 

Well done +++

 

I'm getting sick and tired of the average sheep who needs his college professor to tell him how the world works and how he should live his life. These types of people are common, they need someone else to verify it and they can't decide with their own thinking. Some common examples are racism against white, or in this case against Islam - they immediately jump to the conclusion, with some fancy words they've learned at Berkeley, that if you criticise Islam then it's a racism factor.

 

The type of people who talk about equality but can't even allow someone else to share a different opinion without branding them racist..

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