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GTA needs to seriously evolve


25cansofbacon
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25cansofbacon

I've been playing V recently, and have begun to get incredibly frustrated by an obvious potential that's not being capitalized on in these games. They're technical marvels and I've never seen such fully realized gameworlds and attention to detail before. It's because of this I grit my teeth by the limitations that are imposed on me in a game supposedly marketed upon its freedom.

 

GTA doesn't afford freedom, as it lacks the two crucial elements that truly grant it: economy and political agency. There needs to be the ability get involved in all aspects of society and its operation. This should be GTA's goal. Give me the means to power. Gun running, embezzlement, "protection" (extortion) of businesses, prostitution and the sex trade, controlling shipping, car jacking and chop shopping, the drug market, the ability to bribe political officials and law enforcement, hiring hit crews, real estate and gentrification, etc. Power isn't necessarily always found at the end of a barrel of a gun, it's simply a tool. Imagine a GTA that allowed this type of flexibility. Bribing customs to bring in drugs, setting the prices, and recruiting and placing dealers. Kidnapping people on the street, addicting them to drugs, and forcing them into prostitution. :devil: Jacking cars and driving them to your shop. Being able to pay off some judges to overlook crimes. Intelligence operations to give you insight on your options.

 

It would be the best game ever made.

 

Why hasn't R* begun to implement a collective infrastructure for this? Some of these elements have been toyed around with in past GTAs, but nothing that has become a core pillar of its gameplay....only ancillary to a rapidly staling formula we've had since the series' inception. Don't mistake me, I don't want this franchise to turn into a spreadsheet simulation, but these aspects could be executed in an efficient and easy to understand UI, either at a desk at your mansion, your phone, or through local interactions. I understand how much development workload this would entail and I don't expect everything in the next game, but a very basic underlying framework could at least be begun to start expanding upon in future games. The supply/demand, "buy low, sell high" drug dealing mechanic in CW was so (excuse the pun) addictive, simple as it was, that it remains my favorite GTA to this day by far. The stock market is a great addition also, but there needs to be more.

 

I've no doubt that when VI is announced, the line (as is typical) will be that it's going to be "X times larger than V!!!". This will mean absolutely nothing but that we'll ultimately have a larger prison to run around in doing superficial amusement park rides and acts of carnage while following a restricted linear story. What a disgrace to the amount of work put into a world so fully realized that is nevertheless unable to be fully exploited. I can only BASE jump, race cars off ramps, boat, jet-ski, and shoot people in the face for so long. I would gladly take a GTA that is half the size of V that holds some significant depth to its gameplay. If R* is able to create such detailed worlds with so many dynamic variables working seamlessly together, they are fully capable to do the aforementioned. Because as it stands, for a franchise that so prides itself on player agency, I've never felt so imprisoned.

 

It's time to make a huge leap in evolution.

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If GTA VI would be like Vice City and SA story-wise, SA map-wise, VC and SA weapon-wise, and like the 3D GTA's with freeroaming, it would be a good game.

 

GTA III, VC, SA, VCS and LCS had literally NO restrictions (except for SA wjere you get 4 stars when going to SF or LV early), IV had no restrictions either (not sure though), but in V... good lord...

 

You are literally forced to do what the mission tells you to. There is a mission which locks your wanted level to 0 stars and you want to use it to get a Lazer? NOPE. Mission failed for getting too far away.

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bennagle109

Alot of what you said would get crazy critism and I can't see how kidnapping people and turning them to prostitution is fun? It's sick.

Then again mowing down people with a mini gun is too.

Edited by dakkajet
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I totally share what you've said, 25, GTA V lacks a lot of essentialism in fun elements overall these days, there a lot of stuff which is not implemented in the infraestructure of the game that makes it goofy and meager in the gameplay.

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Maibatsu545

Too true OP. To be honest the game has felt stale since GTA4. Online was a nice attempt at changing things up but the freemium/free2play stuff killed it. The series needs a major shot in the arm gameplay wise, because V definitely feels like the series is getting stale.

 

EDIT: cant help but disagree with the kidnapping bit though. That sort of crosses the line. More freedom is needed overall in what the player can do.

Edited by Maibatsu545
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GTA could learn some things from Scarface: The World Is Yours I guess.

Scarface was a copy of gta vice city,how about you say gta needs to learn from the first saints row.

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I do agree that the series needs to evolve and that V was a disgrace to the opportunities it could provide.

 

That said, I'm absolutely uninterested in running empires or politics. I don't care for games like Tropico or Democracy so I don't know why I'd want it in an open world shooting/driving/more shooting game. Sounds like more errands to take care of not based on any plot, and more notification annoyances.

 

That said, since it seems that 'everything and a kitchen sink' approach works for more people than 'an intimate, focused story-driven experience', I'm guessing you'll probably get this kind of stuff in the next games.

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Though I understand what OP is trying to say, there's a thin line between turning an action game like GTA into some strategy game (I do love strategy games).

There's a reason why (at least for now) the market is still on for eg: both FM and FIFA.

Some "action-strategy/management"'s wider role is surely highly desirable by a lot of fans, some of the hardcore ones though might hate VI>V>IV...

Ubisoft kinda managed to do it every now and then.

 

I bought my PS4 upon release.

I've played Oblivion-Elder Scrolls to the limit and started with IV also upon release.

I did felt a bit disappointed with the lack of interiors when comparing with Oblivion's "happy hour".

 

V just goes along with IV's MO (GTAO* apart).

Beautiful graphics & mechanics that seem kinda underused, being squeezed by those devilish mods all over again.

I was again amazed with the lack of interiors on V (similar to IV). Console's restrictions didn't apply any more, I guess.

 

* Sadly, it's been long since the focus was set on SP's long time enjoyment.

I've tried V online and hated it. Millions love it (cool for them) and r* keeps cashing in on something that was originally developed for SP.

 

Whatever VI will be it will not be the same as IV or V.

Unlike IV & V, It'll probably be developed for online, with a (tutorial) slight story mode aside that you can play upon release while those "servers technical problems" get solved.

 

Isn't there some market (atm) for both?

 

Tfw your company gets so big that you just don't give a f*ck anymore.

Edited by Eram
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25cansofbacon

Alot of what you said would get crazy criticism and I can't see how kidnapping people and turning them to prostitution is fun? It's sick.

Then again mowing down people with a mini gun is too.

Pretty much.

 

But my conscious ceases to hold compunction once I screw a prostitute and then stab her to death to recoup my money. That's pretty bad. GTA has never afforded me the luxury of moral ambiguity, and the criticism it's accrued over the years is a testament to that. GTA's implications are made crystal clear to me in the first 15 minutes (killing cops escaping from a bank robbery), and once done it's then taken with no regard for degrees and shouldn't be restricted by such. It doesn't bother me in the least also as I know it's a game and entirely make believe.

 

Aside, for those that it does bother, such a mechanic wouldn't necessarily need to be explicit (which is to say, you wouldn't see the suffering) which is where I think a lot of the offense would arise from. This wouldn't be like Hatred. But I enjoy Hatred, so it wouldn't bother me even if it was.

 

Too true OP. To be honest the game has felt stale since GTA4. Online was a nice attempt at changing things up but the freemium/free2play stuff killed it. The series needs a major shot in the arm gameplay wise, because V definitely feels like the series is getting stale.

 

EDIT: cant help but disagree with the kidnapping bit though. That sort of crosses the line. More freedom is needed overall in what the player can do.

It definitely has become stale, agreed, but I don't understand the bolded. What creates this distaste all of a sudden? My line is crossed when I decide to play, and then it's fair game. GTA is 100% an adoption of immorality. If we're going to claim murder acceptable, if we are to torture people (as we did in V), how do we determine where that line is?

 

I do agree that the series needs to evolve and that V was a disgrace to the opportunities it could provide.

 

That said, I'm absolutely uninterested in running empires or politics. I don't care for games like Tropico or Democracy so I don't know why I'd want it in an open world shooting/driving/more shooting game. Sounds like more errands to take care of not based on any plot, and more notification annoyances.

 

 

I suppose much of my position stems from the fact that I find R*'s stories to be comprised of inept and superfluous writing and characterizations (as I do of all of the Houser's work). I'd think if a bit of agency was given this could be overlooked or at least blunted, but perhaps that's why people play. For me, I want control of the world, not to be an errand boy to a prepubescent narrative with skydiving to break up the monotony.

 

I know that what I'm advocating would necessitate a fundamental grasping of the basic principles of economics as well as the interplay of political dynamics (even if they'd be massively stripped down), though these are really not difficult to grasp. But perhaps the audience for GTA isn't interested. Even so, it's a shame as it could blossom as a crime enterprise simulator, not simply a superficial world to play around in which only has a story in advancement of any real gameplay consequence.

 

As I said, these worlds deserve more for the tremendous amount of labor that goes into them, and if executed correctly, I think it'd only be beneficial. Of course if they continue selling as they've been, what's the point? It would accomplish its goal, but IMO will forever remain creatively bankrupt.

Edited by 25cansofbacon
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GTA could learn some things from Scarface: The World Is Yours I guess.

Scarface was a copy of gta vice city,how about you say gta needs to learn from the first saints row.

Vice City was a copy of the Scarface movie.

Vice City Stories was sort of a copy of the Scarface game (in case you didn't know there was a Scarface game) :p

 

But yeah, it could learn some things from the first Saints Row too. Mobile radio, buddies that can drive for you, etc...

Edited by B Dawg
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Femme Fatale

GTA could learn some things from Scarface: The World Is Yours I guess.

Love that game, it's a shame you can't kill civillians :(...
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I guess the point of the OP is to have a system which allows for long-term, emergent, additional gameplay outside/after the story, and at the same time is engaging, complex enough, integrated into the gameworld, naturally evolving and makes sense. In other words, what taxi missions, collectibles and stunt jumps are not.

 

Now, I agree with that, but again I'm not interested in running an empire in this kind of game. If you break down this idea, it can go 2 ways: one, it's gonna become some sort of a strategy game (maybe even with a top-down UI), which can be a nice diversion but is way too out there to be an integrated element in a game like GTA. Two, this whole empire thing will be on the background and will basically give the player driving and shooting missions. In which case the whole empire business is just context.

 

The other problem is that even this kind of gameplay has to have an endgame, which is essentially 'own everything'. And then it's either just busywork to keep everything in shape, or the game constantly interrupting you with alerts how someone is attacking an establishment or the ship with the new shipment of hookers has sunk. Frankly I'll probably have bad dreams of 'your hood is under attack' for a few more weeks after I finished SA so this is not what i'm looking for. Even in GTA V those mini-missions given by the properties just became annoying after a while.

 

Nah, in my view the best way to expand a game such as GTA is with mission packs and mission DLCs and more mission packs and more mission DLCs (not just clothing and other superfluous crap). Eventually something like what you're proposing might crop up as the very last final pack.

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25cansofbacon

There's nothing I'm suggesting that anyone would need to use to complete the game. Like Chinatown Wars, the drug dealing mechanic wasn't necessary to touch, but it did make financial matters easier.

 

While it would be great to see these elements become the core pillar of gameplay IMO, there's nothing precluding narrative and missions in staying the focus (for players like you) without anything else required for those not interested. I don't see why one type of gameplay must exclude the other, while one could grant much more freedom that could tie into narrative alternatives if one chooses to utilize them. More options are never a bad thing.

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GTA could learn some things from Scarface: The World Is Yours I guess.

Love that game, it's a shame you can't kill civillians :(...

I think you can kill them playing as one of the henchmen. Not sure, been a while since I played.

Edited by B Dawg
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Is everyone forgetting that V was a last gen game? It was designed for ps3/x360 not current machines.

 

And I think the ideas in OP are outside of GTA. What he is basically asking for is a football manager game, GTA manager basically.

 

Remember, GTA games are supposed to be big, silly fun with serious elements thrown into the story. They aren't about micro managing a criminal empire or choosing whether or not you want to be a gun runner, use kidnapping to increase your power and so on. These games have very detailed and thought out storylines and would suffer if they were switched to a freemode style of play.

 

Look how disjointed and empty the online feels. I don't feel like I've done anything online apart from grind for cash to buy new toys. Where as in the V story mode i felt a genuine progression to each character and their status.

 

I don't think that OP's ideas are even close to being right for GTA. GTAO maybe but not the story mode.

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The perfect GTA will be made when:

 

1. Morality isn't an issue (this would allow Rockstar to make more violent and realistic stories maybe? i don't know)

2. Technology is capable of running a huge GTA

 

Number 1 will never happen though

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25cansofbacon

Is everyone forgetting that V was a last gen game? It was designed for ps3/x360 not current machines.

 

And I think the ideas in OP are outside of GTA. What he is basically asking for is a football manager game, GTA manager basically.

 

Remember, GTA games are supposed to be big, silly fun with serious elements thrown into the story. They aren't about micro managing a criminal empire or choosing whether or not you want to be a gun runner, use kidnapping to increase your power and so on. These games have very detailed and thought out storylines and would suffer if they were switched to a freemode style of play.

 

Look how disjointed and empty the online feels. I don't feel like I've done anything online apart from grind for cash to buy new toys. Where as in the V story mode i felt a genuine progression to each character and their status.

 

I don't think that OP's ideas are even close to being right for GTA. GTAO maybe but not the story mode.

There's nothing about the ideas I'm proposing that would impose on story.

 

Did drug dealing in Chinatown Wars, or the stock market in V, or turf warfare in SA? Whether you'd like to admit that these ideas are close or not to what is right for GTA to be, you make that argument in the face of the fact that some have already been implemented in past games, albeit not under an umbrella nor connected in terms of any significant ramifications to the the main story if utilized which is what I'm asking for. I'm not the one who's come up with these mechanics, they have been shown to me in the above forms. I'm curious to hear how these are acceptable to you. You don't want to be a gun runner or kidnap, but are fine with the stock market, drug dealing, and turf wars? What's the difference?

 

Sorry, if R*'s going to go this way, they should go all the way. You give me access to the stock market, what do you expect I will want further? Blame R* for me coming to desire only a natural extension and evolution of something that they've dangled in front of me in various iterations, but yet have failed to capitalize on in a collective infrastructure. The only difference in what I'm arguing for and what R* has already done is expanding on their experiments and beginning to bring it all together into a cohesive, easy to understand and manageable interface that wouldn't even need to be paid heed to if one wishes. I am not asking for a GTA Manager, and this isn't online. It would be available outside the story but also operate and hold bearing within it if it the player chooses the alternative avenues it gives. Like tackling a mission yourself, or hiring crews (as V did) for it. A massive step in the correct direction (and something widely praised in reviews, btw) even if the execution lacked and was scripted to give the illusion of the freedom that I wish we actually had. Options are NEVER a bad thing.

 

Thing is, I have R* on my side as they have toyed with the very things I'm asking for and you seemingly detest. If you want GTA to remain a massive, lifeless, empty world subservient to a banal and juvenile narrative in between jet-skiing and BASE jumping episodes, have at it. That's probably what we'll keep getting anyway considering sales, but it will always stand in contrast as to the brilliance this game shows in potential of being.

Edited by 25cansofbacon
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Is everyone forgetting that V was a last gen game? It was designed for ps3/x360 not current machines.

Even if the game was made primarily for PS4/XBONE, the game would have been just as bad anyway. Most of the game's issues are design choices, not console limitations.

Edited by B Dawg
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Did drug dealing in Chinatown Wars, or the stock market in V, or turf warfare in SA?

I'm sure everybody respects your opinion here, it's just we don't necessarily have to agree.

 

First, whatever we want or don't want doesn't really affect what will or won't be in the next game anyway so we can just voice our opinions to each other basically.

 

That said, I think those mechanics you mentioned (and a lot of others) are useless to begin with. I don't know much about the drug dealing in CW (never finished it), but the gang warfare system in SA was horrendous and the stock market in V completely useless. I mean sure, they have some ingame uses, but I'd be much happier if the devs rather spent their time doing something else.

 

It's like with ingame activities - we've had pool, bowling, darts, yoga, tennis, arcades and whatnot - it's something that can have its uses and can be enjoyable for a moment here and there. But then people can say - well if we've had these sports, why not also have football, baseball, ice hockey and figure skating?

 

Personally I'd be happier if they removed most of this fluff and concentrate on doing the best crime story.

 

Also, LS in V feels empty and lifeless because it's designed that way. Frankly whatever stuff they might add in the game wouldn't change that. In contrast, LC in IV+EFLC, SA in SA and some other games feel enjoyable just to watch and drive around. I think that's the basic thing about the environment. Once the city itself is fun to begin with can other activities be considered.

Edited by RogerWho
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Lethal Vaccine

 

I don't know much about the drug dealing in CW (never finished it)

 

Well, then, let me fill you in. It never ends...Once unlocked, it's there forever. Can use it whenever you want. If you plan on actually reaching 100% and owning all 21 Safehouses in the game, then it's mandatory to use it to get money, since they cost $15,000 to around $100,000, yet you only get about $200 for Missions. It's ESSENTIAL if you actually play the game and want to do everything in it...

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Mister Pink

I like some of the ideas in the OP and I agree with the money making crime-exploits outside of the story.

 

I can't remember who it was on here but they made a great point about why S.A was kind of good at that with pimping missions, burglary missions, trucking missions, gambling in casinos and betting shops and more. I remember Houser or someone from Rockstar saying that they're going to reduce the amount of games in GTA V but focus on making those games more deeper or more complete, I guess they may have thought tennis or golf might take off more. While they're implemented pretty well, I kinda don't want to play GTA to play golf. Yes, it's fun that they're there but I would rather be doing crime-based missions that compliment my character's demeanor.

 

Some of the side-missions can be introduced by characters during the story to keep the cash flow more balanced as the story progresses.

Edited by Mister Pink
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Actually I expected most of these features in GTA V already as it could have featured the border to Mexico with San Diego in the South. Unfortunately it turned out to be different as we all know. However, I doubt these things will be in next time as there are too many factors to be paid attention to. Such a complex system would take years alone to develope.

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I honestly think my Online Character had much more progress than the characters in single player, and I'm not even in current gen yet where you can buy a yatch and become a CEO of your own criminal business.

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Cheatz/Trickz

It doesn't need to evolve, it just needs some improvements beyond graphics, because really all GTAV pushed was graphics. Every other mechanic is a simplified version of a previous R* game. Or it's broken/irrelevant (property, stats, stealth, mods etc).

 

If you're gonna put these things in your game, Rockstar, give them some use.

Edited by Cheatz_N_Trickz
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Official General

F*ck this, I've had enoug of this sh*t.

 

I've done lots of research on GTA V and the modding scene on PC, and these mods are incredible, just the kind if stuff I dream to see in V. I've decided now that I want in, I'm getting a gaming PC soon. I'm even gonna get IV and do mods on that too.

 

Time to enjoy GTA the best way possible without Rockstar's support. Ordinary PC mods doing a much better job than those punk b*tches at Rockstar, time to head where SP is fully appreciated.

Edited by Official General
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Alpha Demigod

While I 100% do agree the series needs to evolve, it sure as hell doesn't need to evolve in the ways you're saying. You're trying to turn the game into some sim/management tycoon game. Like "Cities:Skylines Los Santos DLC"

 

 

The only reason this series sells is because of the brand-name and the hype it's built up due to consistently delivering a fun game for mainstream gamers. But in reality, there are only a few things these games do right. And it seems that all Rockstar does is stick to the core formula where while adding new bells and whistles.

 

GTA core elements:

 

- a big open city to drive around in

- a short, awful, predictable crime story

- some generic aimbot TPS gameplay

- some side activities

- being a "craziness sandbox", its pretty much a simulation where people can do all sorts of crazy things

 

 

All GTA has ever been is just adding more bells and whistles to those elements, but never really expanding on the core or innovating their gameplay. We get cities that are more and more detailed each iteration. In SA we got haircuts and working out. In GTAV we got an underwater ocean. We got new vehicles to f*ck around with. We got a cover system to make the TPS gameplay more realistic. We have better graphics, better physics, better animations, and more detailed side activites like Golf. But the series hasn't really CHANGED.

 

I want to innovate the game, but in ways that stick to its core structure and not try to make the game something it isn't.

 

But, even with this in mind...I still think GTAV had the potential to be an AMAZING game. It had some amazing ideas but they were all undercooked, poorly executed, and just horribly flawed. If these didn't happen this game could have been truly legendary.

 

- Stealth stat? Cool. But let's ruin it by having laughably bad stealth missions

- Heist Crew members gain XP? Cool. But let's ruin it by only having 3 heists where you actually use your crew members.

- A massive countryside? Sure. But let's make 90% of the missions take place in Los Santos

- Stock Market? Property? Ingame internet? All amazing ideas that went undercooked.

 

I don't want to turn this into another "I hate GTA Online rant" , but I still stand by the fact that GTA Online is to blame for GTAV being a disappointment. GTA Online is the cancer that killed GTAV.

Edited by PM-ME-YOUR-TITS-GIRL
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