Military coup d'état attempt in Turkey

[Abel.]

Egypt is definitely better under El-Sisi than Morsi, and I do respect El-Sisi, but his rule will always be questioned due to the means of his ascension. Turkey needs to elect someone better before Erdogan removes that mechanism outright.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Failure

[Eutyphro]

but I do think a coup whilst undoubtedly claiming many victims in the short term one way or another would've paved the way to a better future for Turkey in the longterm than is the case now.

 

I'm very skeptical of that. The media in Western countries claimed exactly that when the military took over in Egypt, not because they genuinely believe military dictatorship gives opportunities for freedom, but because the West has a geopolitical interest in military dictatorship in Egypt. And the regime in Egypt now is worse than those before it, and truly cracks down on opponents with radical violence and repression. The general rule is that freedom isn't provided from top to bottom. Freedoms have to be won bottom up by the people. So the idea that military dictatorship would've provided more freedom in Turkey is in violation of this rule.

[KnowDude]

Whether this Micky Mouse coup was real or a False Flag action, the only one profiting from this is Erdogan and his islamist party.

Now, he has got rid of the last real threat to his autocracy plans, he has the support of the majority of the Turkish population (even a lot of non-AKP voters have stood with them against the soldiers), he has got the support of the opposition and anybody who will criticize him will be branded as a terrorist and will rot in prison.

 

Also, this joke of a coup might have broken the secular/kemalist Turks, because they have been waiting for years for the military (traditionally made up of kemalists, but Erdogan has managed to weaken them) to get rid of Erdogan, but now it seems like Erdogan will be the head of state for lifetime.

I won't be surprised if many Turks who are sick of the thought that they will have to suffer this dictator will flee the country and go to Australia, North America or Europe.

 

btw. you cannot really be that naive to think that you can get rid of Erdogan through democratic means, our beloved defender of Turkish democracy has weakened all the non-AKP media, so the opposition barely has a chance to present itself and its positions properly. Do you really think Turkey is a democratic country because there are elections with very dubious results? Then you must think that cola is a healthy drink because there's water in it.

 

This is really sad, because the first few years of Erdogan's "regency" have been decent, with a lot of reforms and an awesome prosperity like never before in Turkey, but in the last three to five years, he has been deconstructing the traditional secular & democratic structures to build himself a new islamic Ottoman Empire with himself as the Sultan for lifetime. Sadly, he has been really successful at building a cult of personality around himself and thus replacing the great Atatürk (who clearly was not a saint, but a wise modernizer) in the heads of many people, which lead to the traditional values being replaced with an increasing islamization, as you could see by the masses yesterday who were yelling "ALLAHU EKBER"

Edited July 17, 2016 by KnowDude

[otachi]

Egypt is definitely better under El-Sisi than Morsi, and I do respect El-Sisi, but his rule will always be questioned due to the means of his ascension. Turkey needs to elect someone better before Erdogan removes that mechanism outright.

Bullsh*t,as an Egyption i can say El-Sisi is murderous bastard and a pathetic liar,he killed thousands in order to make his coup,he did nothing for the people of egypt,do you know what's the worth of a dollar in egypt?? it's 11 pounds,it was 7 pounds in time of morsi.

 

I might agree that morsi has somewhat a weak personality,but everything was going fine but now after El-sisi it just went downhill,people are now so poor that they are kidnapping woman and men and children,woman for rape,men for selling their organs,children for begging people to show some sympathy and gave them money.

 

Morsi just needed to be tough,what the hell happened to death sentence,it made everyone to check themselves before doing any outrageous stuff.

[Eutyphro]

Yeah, but Failure is a completely brainwashed pro Israel dummy to the extent that he thinks it is best for Egypt to live under a murderous torturous military tyrant who opposes any civil freedom you could imagine, so it favours Israel's geopolitical power in the region. And sadly there were also multiple others on this forum speaking in favor of Sisi. But they are only parotting the media propaganda I guess.

[acmilano]

http://112.international/politics/one-of-participants-of-coup-in-turkey-was-pilot-who-shot-down-russian-fighter-plane-7185.html

 

One of the participants of the coup was a pilot that shot down russian SU-24 in november 2015.

[Abel.]

 

Egypt is definitely better under El-Sisi than Morsi, and I do respect El-Sisi, but his rule will always be questioned due to the means of his ascension. Turkey needs to elect someone better before Erdogan removes that mechanism outright.

Bullsh*t,as an Egyption i can say El-Sisi is murderous bastard and a pathetic liar,he killed thousands in order to make his coup,he did nothing for the people of egypt,do you know what's the worth of a dollar in egypt?? it's 11 pounds,it was 7 pounds in time of morsi.

 

I might agree that morsi has somewhat a weak personality,but everything was going fine but now after El-sisi it just went downhill,people are now so poor that they are kidnapping woman and men and children,woman for rape,men for selling their organs,children for begging people to show some sympathy and gave them money.

 

Morsi just needed to be tough,what the hell happened to death sentence,it made everyone to check themselves before doing any outrageous stuff.

 

 

Reasonable response. You know better than I. It wasn't Morsi's "weak personality" that worried me so much as his oppression of Christians and regressive Islamist policies. Again, you know a lot more about this than I do as you're an Egyptian, and I respect that. I'm sorry if I appeared flippant and I hope things improve in your country. It's easy to judge things from afar but you miss a lot of nuance in doing so. This is what Euty doesn't understand when he derides Israel.

 

 

@Euty: I want Israel to be secure and have good relations with its neighbours. I don't care if you don't want there to be a Jewish state or if you'd rather have half my family languishing as an underclass in the Arab world. As for parroting propaganda, you have an obsession with Iraq, you've insisted on sticking to flawed, biased studies regarding depleted Uranium, have called Iran's military policy since 1979 "purely defensive" and are totally unwilling to acknowledge well founded reports critical of the modern Labour party. If I'm brainwashed, so are you.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Failure

[Eutyphro]

It wasn't Morsi's "weak personality" that worried me so much as his oppression of Christians and regressive Islamist policies.

 

Which was mostly conjecture of linking tragic acts by Islamists to Morsi, and holding Morsi directly responsible, which has no basis in fairness at all. Morsi appointed Christians, and freedom for Christians to practice their religion was part of his constitution.

 

It's easy to judge things from afar but you miss a lot of nuance in doing so. This is what Euty doesn't understand when he derides Israel.

 

I could argue for the opposite, but let's not do that. These are all pretty fallacious arguments and they have no relevance for the truth.

 

I don't care if you don't want there to be a Jewish state or if you'd rather have half my family languishing as an underclass in the Arab world.

 

You seem to be imagining things again.

 

​As for parroting propaganda, you have an obsession with Iraq, you've insisted on sticking to flawed, biased studies regarding depleted Uranium, have called Iran's military policy since 1979 "purely defensive" and are totally unwilling to acknowledge well founded reports critical of the modern Labour party. If I'm brainwashed, so are you.

 

The depleted uranium discussion was actually quite complex. Sivispacem had good research to back up depleted uranium is not proven to cause such amounts of birth defects and cancers. I had studies pointing out how the diseases in Fallujah must've been caused by metal poisonings. There were also studies by Iraqi doctors with data on the insane amounts of birth defects and cancers. I remember comparing the amount of ammunition used in Basra in the first Gulf War, and Fallujah in the Iraq war, with those examples of the Yugoslav war used in the studies by Sivispacem which disputed the toxicity. It was a very complex discussion actually. It didn't even have a specific outcome. It's pretty much a specialist issue.

 

On the non aggressiveness of Iran: I was talking about the Iranian military itself, and not about their support for rebels/paramilitary groups/totalitarian states. Iran is not openly agressive, but rather indirectly so. I think I said that in the context of Iran and nuclear weapons. Iran would use nuclear weapons defensively, as a deterrent. US intelligence is actually well aware the Iranian military is a joke compared to more modern armies, and that Iran isn't dumb enough to openly wage war with its army against much more advanced opponents like Israel. Iran doesn't have a history of using their own military for aggression.

 

On the Labour Party, I'm not willing to accept media smear campaigns to discredit political outsiders. It was a bit unclassy of me to call you brainwashed. I doubted on whether to post it like that. But that was my true honest sentiment, and if in any case it was too uncivil I apologize.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Eutyphro

[Abel.]

You shouldn't tred lightly, if that's your honest opinion then it's fine to express it. There's something to be said about being blunt.

 

 

Restrained response. I don't think Iran has been purely defensive since the revolution, at the same time I won't designate it a terror state as other neocons are wont to do. It's support of Hezbollah is pbviously something I take serious issue with, but it is natural for Iran to do what it can to engender support and alliances abroad.

 

Itanian military structure and the relationship between its regular army and the revolutionary guards is a complex and intriguing issue.

 

I think we should both stop putting words into eahother's mouths.

[El Dildo]

sorry this is going to be slightly off topic...

 

@Euty: I want Israel to be secure and have good relations with its neighbours.

yeah, well, that's never going to happen.

 

I think if there's one thing we can all objectively agree on, it's that the establishment of the modern Israeli state was a terrible idea. just forcing them in there. making refugees out of Palestinians who were there first. 2,000 years of human suffering all directly traceable to this stupid turf war over a little strip of barren desert. and all because of some stupid difference of opinion over the afterlife.

 

f/ck the Abrahamic faith. you guys are ruining the world for the rest of us.

[Abel.]

Difference of opinion on the afterlife? As you should know, Jews believe that every non-Jew warrants the world to come by following the seven laws of Noah, which most do automatically by virtue of living in a society of laws and not murdering people.

 

All Sephardi Jews in Israel, half the population, will disagree with you. In Arab lands Sephardim/Mizrahim were at the mercy of a society that hated them for being Jews--it wasn't some theological dispute, it was having to live with things like the Farhud where Jews were slaughtered in the streets of Bagdhad. No, Israel is the better option. The UN offered to partition the land of Israel/Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state, the Arab world declined and chose its course, to the great detriment of many Arabs and at the cost of many lives, Jewish and Arab.

 

Am I sympathetic to Palestinian refugees? Of course, but I also recognise that there were just as many Jewish refugees from the Muslim world who were never compensated for the wealth stolen from them by their former hosts, who had to live in transit camps for years and live under the Mapai government for 30 years. You need to inform yourself and read about the other side. You're generalising and glossing over the deep issues that prevent reconciliation, instead choosing to smugly blame religion wholesale, which solves nothing. This is my greatest problem with American liberalism: it screams about feelings but offers no tangible answers.

 

 

Forcing them in there? There were 300,000 some Jews living in Israel before the Holocaust, and a lot bloody more would have voluntarily poured in had it not been for the infamous 1939 White Paper which limited aliyah due to Britain's colonial interests. The Jews of Yemen who desperately made their way to Israel in several waves since the 19th century weren't exactly forced in, nor were the Jews of Iraq who had lived in Iraq for over 2000 years. Were Soviet Jews or Ethiopian Jews, both at major risk of cultural genocide (and famine in the latter case) forced in? Sorry, but if you accept a Polish state explicitly defined as such, and a Latvian state explicitly defined as such and many more such states, then accept a bloody Jewish state. Look to your own history and understand the necessity of Israel.

 

 

@Euty: I've heard Labour friends of mine dismiss it as a smear campaign, but there's hard evidence which shows that there are deep issues within Labour which have been in the background for years and Corbyn has failed to address. The people actually affected by antisemitism are the ones complaining, not the Conservatives.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Failure

[El Dildo]

while I respect your attempt to be cordial, you're just beating around the elephant in the room.

it's just zealots fighting zealots over scripture.

 

the only reason any of this conflict exists is because The Bible. and the Quran. and the Old Testament.

this is my greatest problem with self-styled religious moderates: they cling to a false logical inconsistency which provides cover for the real extremists who are hellbent on destroying the society you claim to love. stop covering for this crap. religion is poison. there will never be peace in that part of the world until they get past it.

Edited July 17, 2016 by El Diablo

[Abel.]

Sorry mate but how on earth can you blame the Old Testament for this? For 2000 years Jews living in Arab lands and Iran were persecuted for being Jews, and this was a one-sided thing--Jews were not the agitators. Jews firmly believe that any Muslim who doesn't murder or condone murder has automatically warranted heaven. The antisemitism in the Arab world is multidimensional: There is an Islamic aspect, there's an Arabist aspect and there's also the antisemitism taught to the Arab world by the Nazis and others, which persists to this day ("Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is still read in the Muslim world). I'm not going to apologise for the fact that half my family chose going home to Israel over living in the midst of that sh*t.

 

Again, this liberal equivalence of every belief system is frustrating. There were periods were Sephardic Jews lived peacefully with Muslims, such as the Golden Age in Iberia, but these moments were fleeting in the grand scheme of things, and there were regular bouts of persecution right up to the Farhud in 1941 Iraq. In Iran (yes I know it's not an Arab country) things were largely dependent on the ruler: Sometimes Jews were treated very well, other times they were seen as racially inferior to Persians and deserving of scorn.

 

 

I'm not saying that all Muslims hate/hated Jews. The Ottomans were very pragmatic and were largely tolerant of Jews fleeing the Inquisition and Al Mohades to settle in their lands. They were also happy to sell plots of land in the land of Israel/Palestine to Jews when they controlled it (this is how many early Zionists settled the land). There was also a period of coexistence between all three faiths in Iberia which remains well known for the literary contributions made. In the end though, just as in Europe, Jewish life was ultimately untenable.

 

 

You can't just back out of saying that:

 

 

 

I think if there's one thing we can all objectively agree on, it's that the establishment of the modern Israeli state was a terrible idea.

 

The establishment of the modern Israeli state was a Jewish enterprise. It represented the culmination of Jews returning to the land since Sephardic Jews had started resettling the holy cities after the expulsion from Spain in 1492 and Zionists began major efforts to escape the pogroms and bring national pride back to Jewish life. In all the awful, horrific ideas in 20th century politics, the reestablishment of a Jewish state in Israel was not a bad one. You seem to think that Jews were just transported to Israel after WW2 out of kindness by the great powers, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Jews fought for that land, both before and after 1948, and Jews did all they could to revive their language and rebuild their lives in Israel.

 

By reverting to arguments of religion here you're completely evading the point. There are plenty of secular Jews living in the Gush Dan region of Israel; Hamas and Hezbollah hate them all the same. People don't just escape from being Jews by renouncing religion and eating bacon.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Failure

[El Dildo]

ok now we're too off topic.

when I get a chance I'll reply to your PM and maybe re-quote it within the context of the Middle East debate.

Edited July 17, 2016 by El Diablo

[acmilano]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-17/turkey-detains-incirlik-airbase-commander-over-6000-arrested-historic-systemic-purge

 

Commander of Incirlik military base is arrested for participation in coupe. The one where 90 US nukes were deployed. This coulda be quite bad.

[make total destroy]

AKP supporters and police are now coordinating attacks against Alevis, Kurdish, and leftist neighborhoods in Istanbul.

Edited July 17, 2016 by make total destroy

[dice]

[018361]

 

 

On topic: Tribute to the Turkish people who foiled the coup, they had the courage to stand in front of tanks and fight for their democracy against the putschists.

Sadly most of those standing in front of tanks got smeared all over the pavement. If you want to see the proof of that go to liveleak..

 

Links please ?

 

Holy sh*t Eutyphro, WTF this I just see ?

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=75e_1468646982

 

My god! The total disregard of human life by whoever was driving that tanks disgusts me. That poor person was ripped in half in a matter of seconds!

 

Edit: Even as a christian I hope that whoever was driving that tank literally burns in hell.

Edited July 17, 2016 by 018361

[otachi]

Holy sh*t,i just saw a video of a tank ran over civilians.

[make total destroy]

So is it too early to say fascism is taking root in Turkey or nah?

[Turan]

AKP supporters and police are now coordinating attacks against Alevis, Kurdish, and leftist neighborhoods in Istanbul.

 

 

Source?

[Clem Fandango]

 

I don't care if you don't want there to be a Jewish state or if you'd rather have half my family languishing as an underclass in the Arab world.

 

Yes this is a completely likely and plausible scenario. How could we not see? If Israel stops colonising land and blowing up random apartment buildings Iran will gain the courage to invade and enslave Israel while the rest of the world sits on its thumbs for some reason.

[dice]

Looks like Erdogan is launching his own coup, removing around 2700 judges and other legal representatives from duty, effectivly removing 36% of the countrys legal branch.

 

Well you can't really run a dictatorship with an active opposition

[make total destroy]

 

AKP supporters and police are now coordinating attacks against Alevis, Kurdish, and leftist neighborhoods in Istanbul.

 

 

Source?

 

Some folks on Twitter.

 

https://twitter.com/alihaydardgn

https://twitter.com/siyarkocgiri1/status/754404761705779200

https://twitter.com/thefakeparty/status/754352580596203520

 

No idea if this is on-going, or if it occurred during the coup itself, or what.

[Turan]

 

 

AKP supporters and police are now coordinating attacks against Alevis, Kurdish, and leftist neighborhoods in Istanbul.

 

 

Source?

 

Some folks on Twitter.

 

https://twitter.com/alihaydardgn

https://twitter.com/siyarkocgiri1/status/754404761705779200

https://twitter.com/thefakeparty/status/754352580596203520

 

No idea if this is on-going, or if it occurred during the coup itself, or what.

 

 

None of those seem reliable. Just some tweets with statements and random pics and videos where no attack is really happening. Let's try to verify things like these before spreading them around, there is enough tension in the country already as it is.

[anus]

Failure spitting truth up in here. It's refreshing to see someone talk about the plight of the Jews.

[make total destroy]

 

 

 

AKP supporters and police are now coordinating attacks against Alevis, Kurdish, and leftist neighborhoods in Istanbul.

 

 

Source?

 

Some folks on Twitter.

 

https://twitter.com/alihaydardgn

https://twitter.com/siyarkocgiri1/status/754404761705779200

https://twitter.com/thefakeparty/status/754352580596203520

 

No idea if this is on-going, or if it occurred during the coup itself, or what.

 

 

None of those seem reliable. Just some tweets with statements and random pics and videos where no attack is really happening. Let's try to verify things like these before spreading them around, there is enough tension in the country already as it is.

 

To be fair, there's very few reliable sources for anything going on atm. Lots of conflicting information and propaganda coming from every angle. It doesn't seem too far-fetched either way, though.

[Shaundi.]

Mustafa Ataturk would be rolling in his grave with what Erdogan is doing to Turkey like chipping the secular bits off the constitution. The Turkish military enforces a secular democracy and keeps the government in check, good thing a small faction of the military did what Mustafa wanted, bad thing is its only a small faction. I think the whole military should've been involved.

 

6000 arrested, around 2800 of those being military personnel for so called treason. Treason my ass. If anyone's committed treason in this situation, it's Erdogan, his supporters and the AKP going against what Mustafa built.

 

I hope another coup happens in the near future for the sake of secularism. If I was Turkish, I'd join the military in a heartbeat, not out of patriotism (which is dumb) but for the sake of a secular state.

[Carbonox]

It might soon be too late for a successful coup to be even a distant possibility. Too many loyalists being inserted to the military ranks.

[dice]

More than 15,000 education staff in Turkey have been suspended after last week's failed coup, as a purge of state officials widens still further.

 

The cherry on the cake is cpt. Irony Man dropping the truthbombs.

 

"I'm sorry but this parallel terrorist organisation will no longer be an effective pawn for any country. We will dig them up by their roots so that no clandestine terrorist organisation will have the nerve to betray our blessed people again " Mr Yildirim said, according to Reuters news agency.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36838347

 

Im tending to start to believe that staged coup nonsense. This really is getting out of hand