jets ruin all this new vip stuff

[Azarael]

R* currently playing on XB1 getting destroyed https://www.twitch.tv/rockstargames

 

 

I read in the Twitch comment box that these people are not developers working on the game, but are from the social media department.

 

I hope that that's true. There's nothing I hate more than seeing an actual developer play his own game while being in complete denial of its flaws.

 

I stopped watching after about 5 minutes. Seeing those people laughing off being killed out of nowhere by missiles or jet cannons made me feel sick.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Azarael

[Jenkiiii]

FICTITIOUS NEWS

Rockstar have decided to spawn jets next to the CEO just like the Buzzard currently does.

 

If you think the game's broken at the moment, just wait until the next glorious update.

 

[Setzaroth]

 

 

 

 

 

I'll be extremely blunt here - though as a preface, let me say this is not personal against you, because I have agreed with you on a lot of things before and generally like you on this forum. You seem like fine people.

 

So with that out of the way: I'm not interested in reasonable disagreement on this subject anymore, nor in leaving out the insults or having "better exchanges." There are a few reasons for that. One is that the reasonable and polite approach has gotten me nowhere. Rockstar has not changed anything and after arguing about this for 2 years, I have yet to win one pro-jet person over to the side of goodness and light. It's been a monumental waste of my time, so I'm done with all that. The only reasons I'm talking about it at all are: 1) to vent, because it makes me angry; and 2) to hopefully get some other people worked up further. The community around this game has gotten more and more toxic and hostile over time. At this point, I am actively interested in making that worse - in the hopes that it will finally draw some attention from the only voice in this debate that really matters: Rockstar Games. If they don't sit up and pay attention to the bickering and name-calling, this is truly a lost cause, and I might as well retire permanently from GTA Online. Because this is just going to keep on pissing me off, and I'm tired of working around an obvious, stupid, easily fixable problem.

 

Another reason is that the pro-jet side consists mainly of trolls and morons (not entirely, but mainly) who only ever get into these conversations to score cheap points by mocking people and saying "GIT GUD" over and over. Well, f*ck 'em. I've reached a point where I don't mind burning bridges to win arguments. I've lost a lot of my enthusiasm for GTA anyway, thanks to this issue primarily; if I ended up getting a vacation from this forum for being over-aggressive, that's not going to really keep me up nights.

 

 

And you seem like a reasonable fellow. Do you really think that Rock Star makes significant changes by reading through hundreds of pages of bulletin board material from hard core games (gamers that probably do not represent the majority of the players)? Would it not be better for you and your brethren to take advantage of the 1-800 number and barrage them with calls so that you at least know that your message is being heard? I guess this is my problem and has been from the very beginning-this idea that if we just complain on here enough, that will effect the change that you want. You seem like a man of conviction, so I guess it surprises me that you think banding with the whiners will accomplish anything. Reminds me of people who think they are effecting major public policy because they signed an e-petition.

 

 

You're assuming an awful lot there. I've emailed Rockstar and posted on their support forum about the jet problem literally at least a dozen times. I put my money where my mouth is. If I had the phone number of one of their key programmers I'd call him right now.

 

But I do think they keep half an eye on forums like this one - certain boards anyway; this one is popular enough that it doesn't seem too unlikely - and I absolutely do not mind if jet arguments take over the place and burn it to the f*cking ground in the process. I also think if more people get angry about this, maybe THEY will take to Rockstar's forums and flood their inbox. That'd be fine with me. The more people get mad (on either side) and the madder they get, the more chance that any of this penetrates the blinders of the only people who matter.

 

I'll put my money where my mouth is in another way, too. Anyone that thinks the jet is balanced at all is welcome to join me in a lobby this weekend. I'll get my Hydra (as many times as necessary, daisy-chaining them in that special way all jet griefers do); you try to do free roam events, VIP work, and CEO jobs, using any vehicle you want as long as it's not a Hydra, and using any weapons you want, too. Let's just see how many times I kill you vs. how many you kill me. Let's just see how often you actually manage to complete an objective and earn money. Let's find out if you ever have one ounce of fun that I can't snuff out like the angry, sexually frustrated teenager I'm emulating squashes an ant on the sidewalk.

 

Of course, I've made that offer before and been taken up on it approximately zero times total. No one cares. Jet whores will keep on whorin'. Their approach to this debate is completely dishonest - the entire reason they're obsessed with that vehicle is because they know damn well how overpowered it is.

 

 

I'm guessing because having an associate chase you down in our own hydra would dismantle this little scenario.

 

Ya, "emulating" because someone this worked up over a 3 year old online game, who admitted to just wanting to make people mad is completely normal. Do you hear yourself?

Edited June 10, 2016 by Setzaroth

[Azarael]

First up, I think he'd be more than happy to prove the point about Hydras vs CEO work by 2v1ing you in a Hydra. Good luck stopping passive mode abuse!

Second up, if you have to bring a Hydra to dispose of a Hydra... see where I'm going with this? Effective against everything and countered only by itself. OP.

 

and so began another cycle of wasted responses to someone who has a jet in his signature and is thus biased as holy hell...

Edited June 10, 2016 by Azarael

[Setzaroth]

First up, I think he'd be more than happy to prove the point about Hydras vs CEO work by 2v1ing you in a Hydra. Good luck stopping passive mode abuse!

Second up, if you have to bring a Hydra to dispose of a Hydra... see where I'm going with this? Effective against everything and countered only by itself. OP.

 

and so began another cycle of wasted responses to someone who has a jet in his signature and is thus biased as holy hell...

 

"See where i'm going with this?" No... a jet kills a jet, and basically everyone has one. You essentially said that doesn't count 'cause reasons. I've been in lobbies where I checked the map and every org. had a jet escorting them. I didn't even bother getting in my Hydra on that server.

 

I'm not biased, of course the jets are ridiculous. And just recently I said the jets makes this update unplayable in another thread. But a long standing staple of the franchise doesn't need to be changed to cater to everyone who wants to play 3D mafia wars in a poorly implemented update.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Setzaroth

[Azarael]

You're right, it doesn't count.

 

You feel your footsteps treading over well-worn ground. Can you really be here again?

 

Dunno how many times this has to be said to permeate some peoples' skulls. If get a jet is the ONLY answer to being attacked by a jet - WHICH IT IS - it's freaking overpowered. If getting a jet solves every problem you can possibly encounter in the game, which it does because they don't have any weakness, they can be called in every 2 minutes, AND they dominate CEO work because they wreck static targets before they can be destroyed (especially when abusing passive mode) then I'm sorry, but this "staple of the franchise" needs a nerf, which will be at the very least removing the explosive rounds and replacing them with a standard cannon.

 

They are high strength, low risk death machines with ZERO opportunity cost because they're replaceable every 2 minutes for a tiny fee. If you want that kind of power it has to come with a drawback. Jets DO NOT HAVE ONE. Not their durability, not their call-in time, not their replacement cost, not a weakness against air, not a weakness against ground, not a weakness against rockets. Their only weakness is another jet, and it's not even a weakness because two jets have an equal chance against each other - the other jet doesn't have a dominant position. That's the WHOLE POINT HERE.

 

By using a jet you are dictating my gameplay. I have two choices if I want to keep playing actively:

 

- Get a jet.

- DIE.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Azarael

[Superman1233]

All im seeing is cry babies in here and Azareal is the biggest one.

 

The game gave us many counters to jets. The problem is players like the ones in here posses a lack of skill.

 

Getting a jet to counter a jet is imbalanced. So how do we counter someone using a gun? Get a gun yourself.

 

Its logic you scrubs.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Superman1233

[Shadowfennekin]

All im seeing is cry babies in here and Azareal is the biggest one.

 

The game gave us many counters to jets. The problem is players like the ones in here posses a lack of skill.

 

Getting a jet to counter a jet is imbalanced. So how do we counter someone using a gun? Get a gun yourself.

 

Its logic you scrubs.

Bullsh*t. There's only one counter and that is to use another jet.

[Setzaroth]

You're right, it doesn't count.

 

You feel your footsteps treading over well-worn ground. Can you really be here again?

 

Dunno how many times this has to be said to permeate some peoples' skulls. If get a jet is the ONLY answer to being attacked by a jet - WHICH IT IS - it's freaking overpowered. If getting a jet solves every problem you can possibly encounter in the game, which it does because they don't have any weakness, they can be called in every 2 minutes, AND they dominate CEO work because they wreck static targets before they can be destroyed (especially when abusing passive mode) then I'm sorry, but this "staple of the franchise" needs a nerf, which will be at the very least removing the explosive rounds and replacing them with a standard cannon.

 

They are high strength, low risk death machines with ZERO opportunity cost because they're replaceable every 2 minutes for a tiny fee. If you want that kind of power it has to come with a drawback. Jets DO NOT HAVE ONE. Not their durability, not their call-in time, not their replacement cost, not a weakness against air, not a weakness against ground, not a weakness against rockets. Their only weakness is another jet. That's the WHOLE POINT HERE.

 

By using a jet you are dictating my gameplay. I have two choices if I want to keep playing actively:

 

- Get a jet.

- DIE.

 

Jets have plenty of weaknesses. Buildings, fog, storms, power poles that pop-in at the last second and clip your wing off etc. I'm guessing you don't really fly them so you don't know about all of these factors.

 

I disagree with taking away their explosive rounds, because then the jet would be about as useless as the Annihilator is now.

[Azarael]

Already wrecked Superman1233 in this post which he avoided addressing: http://gtaforums.com/topic/857126-jets-ruin-all-this-new-vip-stuff/?p=1068841495

[Gridl0k]

It's a riot cannon at a supersoaker party and if you can't see that you're just enjoying knocking everyone else on their ass too much.

 

Yes I can go get my own riot cannon, but I came to a supersoaker party.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Gridl0k

[Setzaroth]

"I only like using the pistol NERF DUH KARUMA! WHEN U USE DUG KAROOMA U DICTATE MUH GAMEZ11!1!"

 

lol...

[Azarael]

 

You're right, it doesn't count.

 

You feel your footsteps treading over well-worn ground. Can you really be here again?

 

Dunno how many times this has to be said to permeate some peoples' skulls. If get a jet is the ONLY answer to being attacked by a jet - WHICH IT IS - it's freaking overpowered. If getting a jet solves every problem you can possibly encounter in the game, which it does because they don't have any weakness, they can be called in every 2 minutes, AND they dominate CEO work because they wreck static targets before they can be destroyed (especially when abusing passive mode) then I'm sorry, but this "staple of the franchise" needs a nerf, which will be at the very least removing the explosive rounds and replacing them with a standard cannon.

 

They are high strength, low risk death machines with ZERO opportunity cost because they're replaceable every 2 minutes for a tiny fee. If you want that kind of power it has to come with a drawback. Jets DO NOT HAVE ONE. Not their durability, not their call-in time, not their replacement cost, not a weakness against air, not a weakness against ground, not a weakness against rockets. Their only weakness is another jet. That's the WHOLE POINT HERE.

 

By using a jet you are dictating my gameplay. I have two choices if I want to keep playing actively:

 

- Get a jet.

- DIE.

 

Jets have plenty of weaknesses. Buildings, fog, storms, power poles that pop-in at the last second and clip your wing off etc. I'm guessing you don't really fly them so you don't know about all of these factors.

 

I disagree with taking away their explosive rounds, because then the jet would be about as useless as the Annihilator is now.

 

 

Okay, now you're trolling.

 

Buildings...counter...jets. Fog...counters jets. Power poles.

 

So let me get this straight.

 

To counter a jet, I use my "Building Cannon", my "Fog Generator", my "Storm Shooter" and my "Power Pole Lancer".

 

Jesus Christ, just when I think it cannot get any worse, someone like you comes along trying to paint passive features and weather as specific counters to jets.

 

I must be dreaming. No one can be this dense. Please tell me it's not true.

 

EDIT: Running into another thread, bringing its content here and strawmanning it to boot? Ignore #8 hits the ground running!

 

 

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Setzaroth. View it anyway?

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Superman1233. View it anyway?

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Setzaroth. View it anyway?

 

So good.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Azarael

[Setzaroth]

It's a riot cannon at a supersoaker party and if you can't see that you're just enjoying knocking everyone else on their ass too much.

 

Yes I can go get my own riot cannon, but I came to a supersoaker party.

 

No you didn't. That implies you had no idea jets were a thing. They were literally shown off in the earliest reveal footage for GTA online

[Superman1233]

 

All im seeing is cry babies in here and Azareal is the biggest one.

 

The game gave us many counters to jets. The problem is players like the ones in here posses a lack of skill.

 

Getting a jet to counter a jet is imbalanced. So how do we counter someone using a gun? Get a gun yourself.

 

Its logic you scrubs.

Bullsh*t. There's only one counter and that is to use another jet.

*Homie Launcher

*Jet

*Use cover in the city

*Heavy Snipers

*Insurgent

*Call Lester and go off the radar

 

Get creative and stop complaining. Tanks had counters until babies got it nerfed. R* won't touch the Jet.

 

This game been out over 2 years now. Isn't it logic that the Jet isn't a problem?

 

You and others lack skill.

[Setzaroth]

 

 

You're right, it doesn't count.

 

You feel your footsteps treading over well-worn ground. Can you really be here again?

 

Dunno how many times this has to be said to permeate some peoples' skulls. If get a jet is the ONLY answer to being attacked by a jet - WHICH IT IS - it's freaking overpowered. If getting a jet solves every problem you can possibly encounter in the game, which it does because they don't have any weakness, they can be called in every 2 minutes, AND they dominate CEO work because they wreck static targets before they can be destroyed (especially when abusing passive mode) then I'm sorry, but this "staple of the franchise" needs a nerf, which will be at the very least removing the explosive rounds and replacing them with a standard cannon.

 

They are high strength, low risk death machines with ZERO opportunity cost because they're replaceable every 2 minutes for a tiny fee. If you want that kind of power it has to come with a drawback. Jets DO NOT HAVE ONE. Not their durability, not their call-in time, not their replacement cost, not a weakness against air, not a weakness against ground, not a weakness against rockets. Their only weakness is another jet. That's the WHOLE POINT HERE.

 

By using a jet you are dictating my gameplay. I have two choices if I want to keep playing actively:

 

- Get a jet.

- DIE.

 

Jets have plenty of weaknesses. Buildings, fog, storms, power poles that pop-in at the last second and clip your wing off etc. I'm guessing you don't really fly them so you don't know about all of these factors.

 

I disagree with taking away their explosive rounds, because then the jet would be about as useless as the Annihilator is now.

 

 

Okay, now you're trolling.

 

Buildings...counter...jets. Fog...counters jets. Power poles.

 

So let me get this straight.

 

To counter a jet, I use my "Building Cannon", my "Fog Generator", my "Storm Shooter" and my "Power Pole Lancer".

 

Jesus Christ, just when I think it cannot get any worse, someone like you comes along trying to paint passive features and weather as specific counters to jets.

 

I must be dreaming.

 

 

Sorry, I had no idea you were challenged. *starts talking slowly* No, you don't shoot the buildings out of a gun, the buildings are the big concrete trees in the shiny forest.

 

Are you not aware that using the geometry of the map to your advantage is a thing?

[Gridl0k]

 

It's a riot cannon at a supersoaker party and if you can't see that you're just enjoying knocking everyone else on their ass too much.

 

Yes I can go get my own riot cannon, but I came to a supersoaker party.

 

No you didn't. That implies you had no idea jets were a thing. They were literally shown off in the earliest reveal footage for GTA online

 

 

You're missing the point. It's not that it's a jet that's a problem, it's that it's OP. IE It ruins nearly every single other possible tactic. But you're never going to change your tune eh. It takes a big man to admit they're having fun at other people's expense.

[Setzaroth]

 

 

It's a riot cannon at a supersoaker party and if you can't see that you're just enjoying knocking everyone else on their ass too much.

 

Yes I can go get my own riot cannon, but I came to a supersoaker party.

 

No you didn't. That implies you had no idea jets were a thing. They were literally shown off in the earliest reveal footage for GTA online

 

 

You're missing the point. It's not that it's a jet that's a problem, it's that it's OP. IE It ruins nearly every single other possible tactic. But you're never going to change your tune eh. It takes a big man to admit they're having fun at other people's expense.

 

 

Having fun at others' expense. You mean the concept the game was designed around? Not withstanding exploiters and hackers, that's the name of the game. R* made an update that is basically unplayable with jets in the sky, so you know what I did? I didn't spend a dime on the absurdly over-priced buildings and storage facilities. I looked at what the update was and realized it simply wasn't worth it yet.

 

People who jump on the latest update without thinking are now suffering from buyer's remorse because it took a few hours in a public lobby to shoe-horn what should have been painfully obvious into their mind "Oh, this update is terrible"

Edited June 10, 2016 by Setzaroth

[Gridl0k]

Nope, never gonna get it.

 

Try reading up on game theory, or gamebreakers, or game and level design.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_(game_design)

 

That's the argument we're having, not "it's in the game deal with it".

 

 

 

For something to be deemed overpowered, it is either the best choice in a disproportionate number of situations (marginalising other choices) and/or excessively hard to counter by the opponent compared to the effort required to use it.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Gridl0k

[hyperar]

Jet griefers talk about others lacking skill while they abuse the single most OP item in the game while calling you crying baby at the same time, doesn't get any more ridiculous than that

Edited June 10, 2016 by hyperar

[Azarael]

Part of the problem is that we're trying to argue points based on game design and balance with people who actively reject the idea of good game design and balance, because such a thing would go against what they're trying to do, which is abuse overpowered content to ruin everyone else's fun and big themselves up despite their own lack of skill. It's not possible to make any progress when the other party rejects the core idea that the game should be fair and balanced.

 

This is why I'm applying liberal ignore to these people and just hoping that the silent majority are making decisions based on actual arguments/points rather than the "lol azreal ignores everyone lol coz theyre rite lol" which is probably what's going on within all the posts I have filtered. Trolls and zealots need to understand that I don't need to convince them of anything and I understand that I never will. My posts are to persuade the neutral people and ensure that the stupid posts aren't left alone on the last page without being comprehensively debunked.

 

In other words, if I put you on ignore, it means I've judged that you're no threat to me or my position, and that I don't lose anything in the discussion by ignoring you because you're likely to either keep insulting me, attempt to claim victory based on the ignore I applied, or just repeat points I destroyed before. None of this troubles me at all.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Azarael

[Superman1233]

Already wrecked Superman1233 in this post which he avoided addressing: http://gtaforums.com/topic/857126-jets-ruin-all-this-new-vip-stuff/?p=1068841495

Keep dreaming, i already destroyed you and you can only ignore people when you lose. Stay free scrub.

[Gridl0k]

^ Exactly.

 

Either state whether you believe the jet isn't OP, or whether you believe having OP elements isn't detrimental to an overall game experience (ie you wish to disagree with... everyone).

 

Go.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Gridl0k

[Setzaroth]

The only people that ignore me are the ones incapable of debating me.

[hyperar]

The only people that ignore me are the ones incapable of debating me.

So people that have common sense?

Edited June 10, 2016 by hyperar

[Setzaroth]

 

The only people that ignore me are the ones incapable of debating me.

So people that have common sense?

 

 

Common sense = "This thing that has been in the game since day 1 should change to cater to a brand new update"

 

ya, ok.

[BobFromReboot]

 

 

The only people that ignore me are the ones incapable of debating me.

So people that have common sense?

 

 

Common sense = "This thing that has been in the game since day 1 should change to cater to a brand new update"

 

ya, ok.

 

 

Why the hell shouldn't the game be changed to adapt to the current content? If you are in a jet, maybe AI jets should be dispatched, does that sound fair to you?

[hyperar]

 

 

The only people that ignore me are the ones incapable of debating me.

 

So people that have common sense?

 

Common sense = "This thing that has been in the game since day 1 should change to cater to a brand new update"

 

ya, ok.

Exactly my point, you twist the facts to suit your needs, Hydras are being abused because they are super easy to obtain, and as we all know, Hydras were introduced with Heists DLC.

 

And we all have seen you crying not to have the Lazer available for purchase because it is more powerful than the Hydra, so you basically accepting that the Hydra has no match and that you want it to stay that way

[Pedinhuh]

This thread won't last long...

[Nutduster]

 

 

I'll put my money where my mouth is in another way, too. Anyone that thinks the jet is balanced at all is welcome to join me in a lobby this weekend. I'll get my Hydra (as many times as necessary, daisy-chaining them in that special way all jet griefers do); you try to do free roam events, VIP work, and CEO jobs, using any vehicle you want as long as it's not a Hydra, and using any weapons you want, too. Let's just see how many times I kill you vs. how many you kill me. Let's just see how often you actually manage to complete an objective and earn money. Let's find out if you ever have one ounce of fun that I can't snuff out like the angry, sexually frustrated teenager I'm emulating squashes an ant on the sidewalk.

 

Of course, I've made that offer before and been taken up on it approximately zero times total. No one cares. Jet whores will keep on whorin'. Their approach to this debate is completely dishonest - the entire reason they're obsessed with that vehicle is because they know damn well how overpowered it is.

 

 

I'm guessing because having an associate chase you down in our own hydra would dismantle this little scenario.

 

 

It dismantles the point of the exercise, which is to demonstrate how badly imbalanced the jet is vs. literally everything else in free roam. If your best counter for something is "more of the same thing," your video game has a serious design flaw. Jet users/abusers are always so quick to say "Don't tell me how to play" - then equally quick to say, "If you don't want to get owned, use your own jet [or have your friend protect you in theirs]." Because they know damn well that that's the only reliable way to actually protect yourself from jets, no matter what you're doing or where you are on the map. Your "playing style" dictates to everyone else in the lobby how they have to play. Which makes you the asshole in the room.

 

Common sense = "This thing that has been in the game since day 1 should change to cater to a brand new update"

 

 

Or the Executives update from December. Or the Free Roam update from last fall. Or, f*ck it, the good of the game in general since that thing is an OP piece of sh*t and always has been, and the main two ways people have ever dealt with it is either getting their own jet or pressing the passive button so they can be literally unkillable. So balanced!

Part of the problem is that we're trying to argue points based on game design and balance with people who actively reject the idea of good game design and balance, because such a thing would go against what they're trying to do, which is abuse overpowered content to ruin everyone else's fun

 

That's it in a nutshell. Very few even bother trying to argue that jets are actually balanced, and the ones that do are mostly lying - either to everyone else, or to themselves. I'd gladly engage in a real debate, with arguments and rebuttals, with a jet advocate who was actually capable of debating and also understands jacksh*t about multiplayer game design and balance. If you ever meet one, please let me know.

Having fun at others' expense. You mean the concept the game was designed around? Not withstanding exploiters and hackers, that's the name of the game. R* made an update that is basically unplayable with jets in the sky

 

Ah, a rare glimpse of intellectual honesty from a pro-jet fella. Have you considered exactly why THIS update is unplayable with jets? Because none of this content is all that different from stuff we had before. It's organized a little differently and there are bigger financial risks, but ultimately these are the same fetch-and-deliver quests that have been in free roam since the game first came out. Trying to buy or sell cargo as a CEO is fundamentally not much different from stealing and delivering Simeon's High Priority Vehicle (R.I.P.). And alllllll the way back since the game launched, people have complained about how it's borderline impossible to get that done if a guy in a jet comes after you (the main difference being, back then, it was actually hard to get a jet, and there was only one HPV in the lobby once in a while instead of red crates everywhere you looked).

 

This sh*t isn't new. It just got worse.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Nutduster