Veganism, animal rights & factory farming

[el_make 369]

I myself am a vegan, who grew up in a meat eating family; just like almost everyone of us.

Up until now, what I never really considered, was the impact of my meat eating habits on the animal,

that had become, with the grueling, sick, and inhumane way, the sausage on my plate.

I can't really remember what was the experience, or the "wake up call" for me to quit eating red meat and poultry,

but when I still ate fish. I some months ago quit eating fish too; thus becoming a vegetarian.

 

The thing that made me go full vegan was watching this documentary from 2005 called "Earthlings".

https://youtu.be/ffWG5jHO5dY

 

Straight quote from Wikipedia:

 

 

"Covering pet stores, puppy mills, and animal profession, Earthlings includes footage obtained through the use of hidden cameras to chronicle the day-to-day practices of some of the largest industries in the world, all of which rely on animals. It draws parallels between racism, sexism, and speciesism."

 

It was to me, the most eye opening, gruesome, and saddest video that I've ever seen.

And why? Because it's all true. The animals in those factories had no rights whatsoever.

They were routinely tortured, taken as babies from their mothers,

and in some cases given almost no room to move at all.

Their short existence in this world was agony; just to end up at the grocery store shelves and wherever.

Not just as food, but for scientific experiments, clothes, and entertainment = at circus's, zoos, etc.

 

From now on I will no longer support the meat industry with my eating choices, and neither will I wear leather,

go to zoos, circus's and all that. Watching that documentary to me, was a must, even though it pissed me the hell off,

and made me angry, but it was really an eye opener; on what goes on behind the curtain off my previous life choices. Not anymore. I made a personal choice to withdraw, and not support any of that.

 

I would challenge all the factory farmed (that is sold at grocery stores, restaurants etc.) meat eaters out there, who claim to be an "animal lover", to watch that documentary.

In closing: what are your thoughts on all three subjects, and would you personally be willing to at least try a meat free lifestyle?

 

Let the discussion begin.

Edited May 20, 2016 by el_make

[Voodoo 37,460]

I can't imagine any conscious person who consumes animal products being made aware of the cruelty involved in the industrialization of the food industry and not feeling sickened by it. I've limited my intake of processed animal products for years now as a result. It is possible to consume some animal products from cruelty-free sources but it's expensive and requires research. I think everyone should at least be aware of everything involved with putting that food on their tables so they can make an educated decision. The food industry is so large and powerful that there really isn't much you can do other than choose whatever path helps you live with yourself.

[make total destroy 19,935]

I can't ethically justify my consumption of meat--or any animal products, really--but having grown up regularly eating beef, chicken, drinking milk, etc., it's hard to imagine my life without it, especially fried chicken. Holy sh*t fried chicken tastes good. I'm aware of the ecological problems caused by factory farming and so forth, and I've wanted to go veg for a while now, but I just can't wean myself off the stuff. I'm just a morally-bankrupt individual lacking in willpower, I guess. <| 8^[

[Raavi 22,366]

My stance on the whole topic of animal produce is pretty simple. Good food is a great pleasure of mine, that good food often times includes meat. Whilst I spurred on by a rather vocal vegetarian advocate-friend of mine, watched the documentary you linked as well as some others, including "Cowspiracy" (though I have trouble calling that one a documentary, very murky when subjected to scrutiny), and found some of the practices in factory-farming they portrayed rather objectionable, much to their disappointment it hasn't changed my eating habits one bit. Does that make me a desensitised asshole, you be the judge. That being said, I am and have been for many years very selective when it comes to purchasing meat and other animal produce, though honestly not out of any altruistic concern for animal welfare but more plainly because the meat from a class butcher is of infinitely higher quality and better tasting than the water-laden meat you can buy in supermarkets. I will say this, when we can start mass-producing lab grown meat that has the same taste and texture as regular meat, I won't have any issue switching to that.

[Abel. 5,853]

I can't ethically justify my consumption of meat--or any animal products, really--but having grown up regularly eating beef, chicken, drinking milk, etc., it's hard to imagine my life without it, especially fried chicken. Holy sh*t fried chicken tastes good. I'm aware of the ecological problems caused by factory farming and so forth, and I've wanted to go veg for a while now, but I just can't wean myself off the stuff. I'm just a morally-bankrupt individual lacking in willpower, I guess. <| 8^[

No ethical consumption under capitalism mate. I don't think you're morally bankrupt for eating meat any more than someone is "morally bankrupt" for buying a T-shirt. I don't eat loads of meat now (mainly because it's expensive), but I could never be vegan. Quorn is pretty good--doesn't replace meat but it's not too bad. I'd also say eat more eggs and less meat, but egg production is probably just as bad.

 

 

 

One thing I find funny is that European rights activists love to complain about shechita (kosher meat), but the method employed by observant Jews to slaughter animals was, until the introduction of stunning, the most humane way to kill an animal (indeed, minimising the animal's pain is paramount in the process). This is of course if it's done by a ritual slaughterer by hand (mechanising the process is pretty messed up actually. Indeed, former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren became a strict vegetarian after inspecting a kosher slaughterhouse in Canada). I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with, say, a traditional family raising animals and slaughtering them for meat because the animals will have some measure of freedom and a quick death. The ethical concerns come in when you mechanise the process. I'm not sure if the method of slaughtering is as cruel as how restricted the animals are beforehand.

 

I eat meat and it's generally Tesco's cheapest chicken breast, so yeah, I'm part of the problem. I eat a lot of Quorn because it's fairly cheap and a good source of protein, but it's not the same. Lab grown meat is an interesting avenue. I'd be happy to switch to that.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Failure

[X S 6,180]

OP, in the US, we have a place called Wholefoods. It's an organic food grocery chain founded by two hippies from the 60's. Eating meat isn't inherently malicious, just be mindful of where you're buying it.

 

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/mission-values/animal-welfare/animal-welfare-basics

 

Also, since we're discussing Animal Rights, Canada still fails to comply with animal welfare rights for harp seal pups. Many countries have now banned its sale in hopes of creating awareness and destroying value for furs. In my opinion, this is the worse kind of abuse, because they're basically killing helpless baby infants. Same goes for other animal abuses where the byproduct is anything other than some necessity for survival or consumption.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by X S

[Saggy 823]

So I am not an animal lover because I can sequester my emotional response to not feel guilty? Cool, I will be sure to remember that next time I am fostering a sick cat to health so the local humane society doesn't euthanize it. When the family that adopts them comes to get them I'll be sure to show them that documentary so they know I'm evil for enjoying a steak.

 

So do you have a problem using the computer you typed this on seeing as the people who mined the resources for it were forced to live and work in inhumane conditions? I think if abstaining from a product that results in mass exploitation is important to you, you need to do like Ted Kazinzsky and go live in a cabin in the woods. Just uhh... Don't get into pyrotechnics.

 

I think we should all be advocating for less meat for sure though. It's entire unsustainable for human health, resources and ecological standpoints so I do think we should start embracing vegetarian lifestyles, or at least treat meat as if it weren't a staple of one's diet. The health aspects are not just personal though, but because of the over use of antibiotics (just for mass increase in the animals) people are becoming sick with common bacteria that has become drug resistant to the most common antibiotics. The bacteria that survives in the gut of the animal's is resistant to the antibiotics they use to increase their size and that leads to the bacteria in their waste being highly resistant. Get the stuff airborne and you have people dying, considering the unsanitary conditions of pork and poultry farms that presents a major public health risk.

 

Take into consideration as well that animals need to eat too. We're exhausting supplies of corn and grain to feed livestock, and then wondering why other food costs are so much higher. Every acre of dent corn grown feeds a few cows where it could feed hundreds of people (growing a differ crop). Include into this the huge ecological impact these types of farms have. Trying to indulge our taste for meat just takes other food off the table.

 

It use to be a big deal to have a steak. It was a treat, because beef isn't cheap and most made into burgers. Now days beef is so inexpensive people are having steak multiple times a month. If you took someone from 50 years ago and showed them how much steak we eat now, they'd think we lived in some kind of utopian society.

 

I have been trying to eat less meat just for my own personal health but I am not really one who thinks red meat is really bad for you, I just eat practically no vegetables. When I was a kid at daycare, I threw up my greenbeans, and the daycare worker forced me to eat the vomit. She was so amused with herself she did the same with corn. Anyway now I gag and almost puke any time I chew most types of vegetables. Only way I can really stand them is in juices of cooked into something and even then if I just feel the texture in my teeth I will gag.

 

Anyway so I grew up eating mostly meats and other dairy products, breads and such. I did like fruits at least, but anyway long story short I can't say such a diet pays dividens, because I have plenty of GI problems now. I think people advocate based on personal health and emotional appeals when it comes to this subject though. I think that's a flawed approach though because there's so many other aspects of modern life and consumerism that are just as bad. I think instead of focusing on what wrong we are doing to the animals or our personal health, people need to be more aware it is becoming a burden on society as a whole.

 

If you really want to think about it in a f*cked up way... People die of starvation in the world where crops can't grow, and meanwhile in the US we grow more corn for alcohol production, livestock feed and biofuel than we grow corn we actually eat. We use more acreage so we can get drunk, eat steaks and drive SUVs than many countries have acreage for food.

[El Dildo 14,396]

I think the problem itself just comes from the unethical treatment of animals in general; whether they be used as pets, entertainment, or food. meat consumption is not technically a problem and I don't see anything morally violating in consuming meat the way almost every other mammalian species on the planet consumes meat.

 

the issue is simply how we do it; farming isn't the problem it's the factory part.

animals should have rights as we have rights. unfortunately at this moment in time, given the wildly unplanned trajectory of mankind, we would be unable to feed the world's population if unethical farming were shut down tomorrow. countless people would die of starvation.

 

we've made this bed and now we're sleeping in it.

that doesn't mean we should just ride the train over the cliff but we have to address our food supply chain crisis; aside from the fact that most of it involves unnecessary harm and torture, it's also a major contributor to rapid climate change and methane gas buildup.

 

I want to do my part but like with anything else it's so hard to know where to start. we're just born here. we don't usually realize that everything is f/cked up until we realize that we're too old to do anything about it... the human race has it's priorities so out of whack.

[GTA_stu 8,365]

the issue is simply how we do it; farming isn't the problem it's the factory part.

 

I think most people probably agree with this, me included. As long as the animal is reared and slaughtered in an ethical way, then I have no issue.

 

It'll be interesting in the future, if lab grown meat becomes a more viable thing. Potentially we might find ourselves in a situation where traditional farming becomes almost obsolete because the efficiency and productivity of lab grown meat totally outpaces animal farmed meat. I wonder if in such a future we would as a society decide to outlaw farming animals or introduce other animal welfare laws which would seem crazy to introduce now.

[I was a Junk 102]

Sorry if I screw up, my first time in DnD. Regarding the people saying that we shouldn't abstain from animal products because technically everything we buy is exploited, the simple fact is that it is not practical to not use a computer (which also includes animal products as well) or to stop wearing clothes while it is very possible to mostly eliminate animal products from our consumption.

 

The definition of "Vegan" by the Vegan society is "Vegan ism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and of cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose which I will emphasize right now since yeah, it is impossible to go 100% vegan unless we kill ourselves from small animals being killed by harvesting plants etc. Should also be noted for people not as familiar with veganism that its more of a philosophy and not just a diet so other aspects such as circuses, animal testing for cosmetics are a no no.

 

Also even if everything we consume comes at the exploitation of somebody that is no reason to just give up and accept things are for what they are. Why can't we try to improve worker's rights AND animals rights together. Being vegan doesn't automatically mean that I don't care about worker's rights either. It's really no different from telling abolitionists to give up because there will always be slavery in the world or women's rights activists to give up because there will always be discrimination against women. I want to do something now instead of waiting for something that will never happen if people don't step up and actually commit action.

 

I also do not think hunting as a recreational activity even if you use the meat is ethical either (although it is more humane i definitely agree but "more humane" does not mean morally right as it is still killing a living being, when chances are you don't need it for survival.

 

I am definitely for lab grown meat, I will not lie meat tastes good and i'd love to eat it again lol but without all the suffering and needless killing.

 

Also sidenote but yeah I hate PETA too. I've heard stories of their shelters euthanizing animals most of the time when it is clearly not needed most of the time.

 

Finally apologies for grammar, not really my strong suite but I tried.

[Saggy 823]

Sorry if I screw up, my first time in DnD. Regarding the people saying that we shouldn't abstain from animal products because technically everything we buy is exploited, the simple fact is that it is not practical to not use a computer (which also includes animal products as well) or to stop wearing clothes while it is very possible to mostly eliminate animal products from our consumption.

 

The definition of "Vegan" by the Vegan society is "Vegan ism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and of cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose which I will emphasize right now since yeah, it is impossible to go 100% vegan unless we kill ourselves from small animals being killed by harvesting plants etc. Should also be noted for people not as familiar with veganism that its more of a philosophy and not just a diet so other aspects such as circuses, animal testing for cosmetics are a no no.

 

Also even if everything we consume comes at the exploitation of somebody that is no reason to just give up and accept things are for what they are. Why can't we try to improve worker's rights AND animals rights together. Being vegan doesn't automatically mean that I don't care about worker's rights either. It's really no different from telling abolitionists to give up because there will always be slavery in the world or women's rights activists to give up because there will always be discrimination against women. I want to do something now instead of waiting for something that will never happen if people don't step up and actually commit action.

 

I also do not think hunting as a recreational activity even if you use the meat is ethical either (although it is more humane i definitely agree but "more humane" does not mean morally right as it is still killing a living being, when chances are you don't need it for survival.

 

I am definitely for lab grown meat, I will not lie meat tastes good and i'd love to eat it again lol but without all the suffering and needless killing.

 

Also sidenote but yeah I hate PETA too. I've heard stories of their shelters euthanizing animals most of the time when it is clearly not needed most of the time.

 

Finally apologies for grammar, not really my strong suite but I tried.

 

Well frankly I think you are blissfully unaware on how much your daily life depends on animal products and the exploitation of animals as a resource. An obvious one would be medicine, but really even a lot of building materials and things like that are still animal based as well.

 

I am not saying a person should give up on trying to limit their use of animal products, it's admirable if not futile, but I resent the implication from the OP that you cannot be an animal lover and still utilize animal products. It's a hypocritically silly way to think.

[I was a Junk 102]

 

Sorry if I screw up, my first time in DnD. Regarding the people saying that we shouldn't abstain from animal products because technically everything we buy is exploited, the simple fact is that it is not practical to not use a computer (which also includes animal products as well) or to stop wearing clothes while it is very possible to mostly eliminate animal products from our consumption.

 

The definition of "Vegan" by the Vegan society is "Vegan ism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and of cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose which I will emphasize right now since yeah, it is impossible to go 100% vegan unless we kill ourselves from small animals being killed by harvesting plants etc. Should also be noted for people not as familiar with veganism that its more of a philosophy and not just a diet so other aspects such as circuses, animal testing for cosmetics are a no no.

 

Also even if everything we consume comes at the exploitation of somebody that is no reason to just give up and accept things are for what they are. Why can't we try to improve worker's rights AND animals rights together. Being vegan doesn't automatically mean that I don't care about worker's rights either. It's really no different from telling abolitionists to give up because there will always be slavery in the world or women's rights activists to give up because there will always be discrimination against women. I want to do something now instead of waiting for something that will never happen if people don't step up and actually commit action.

 

I also do not think hunting as a recreational activity even if you use the meat is ethical either (although it is more humane i definitely agree but "more humane" does not mean morally right as it is still killing a living being, when chances are you don't need it for survival.

 

I am definitely for lab grown meat, I will not lie meat tastes good and i'd love to eat it again lol but without all the suffering and needless killing.

 

Also sidenote but yeah I hate PETA too. I've heard stories of their shelters euthanizing animals most of the time when it is clearly not needed most of the time.

 

Finally apologies for grammar, not really my strong suite but I tried.

Well frankly I think you are blissfully unaware on how much your daily life depends on animal products and the exploitation of animals as a resource. An obvious one would be medicine, but really even a lot of building materials and things like that are still animal based as well.

 

I am not saying a person should give up on trying to limit their use of animal products, it's admirable if not futile, but I resent the implication from the OP that you cannot be an animal lover and still utilize animal products. It's a hypocritically silly way to think.

 

I agree tons of things from computer i am using right now to toothpaste contain animal products. And yep hoping to go into medicine sometime in the future there are no alternatives for the animal products needed to grow bacteria and the alternatives to medical testing are not widespread yet.

 

Unfortunately as of currently, it is simply not practical to not use a computer right now while it is very practical to eliminate meat and dairy, eliminate fur, leather, mostly eliminate animal testing etc for cosmetics. I feel that if we do in fact start to say as consumers that we aren't okay with the treatment of animals this causes the search for alternatives when a lot of times we haven't even tried to create products animal free simply because there isn't a demand for it. However this is starting to change with the development of extremely realistic fake meats, lab grown meat cosmetics free of animal testing etc, we simply take this further for items you mentioned among other things. I hear they are starting to develop tissue and using computer models as alternatives for medical testing!

 

 

Obviously alternatives from animal products and having a vegan society aren't going to happen in a day, and may never (welp most likely) completely happen but this is similar with any other radical change. But as I said before, we should start now.

 

EDIT: although it is cool that you are at least reducing your consumption of animal products. Still better than someone who feels the need to eat meat all day ever day.

Edited April 27, 2016 by (junk)

[G's Ah's 371]

I don't have any problems with eating meat. I do, however, have problems with groups like PETA which claim to be for animal rights yet kill over 90% of the animals in their "care". Not to mention they spread a lot of misinformation about industries, especially the wool industry (which as a New Zealander, it's my patriotic duty know a few things about sheep).

 

The thing about this is that man has been eating animal meat basically since we started walking on two legs and ambled about parts of Africa. We're omnivores. Our brains have grown to the size that they are because of our evolutionary development through increasing the consumption of protein. It's how we became us as a species.

 

Of course, certain methods of factory farming need to be improved or done away with entirely but the fact of the matter remains is that we as a species will never fully become herbivores simply because our body demands that we consume large amounts of protein and other nutrients and minerals to sustain our bodies.

 

As for the OP, I sincerely hope you don't have a cat or a dog as a pet and feed them "vegan" meals.

[Clem Fandango 4,979]

We require protein, but it can come from any source as long as the quantities are right. Same with dogs and cats. They aren't giving dogs broccoli, they're giving them beans which imitate the consistency of meat. It's fine.

[I was a Junk 102]

We require protein, but it can come from any source as long as the quantities are right. Same with dogs and cats. They aren't giving dogs broccoli, they're giving them beans which imitate the consistency of meat. It's fine.

Welp cats actually do need meat since it has an amino acid called taurine which cats cannot make themselves. There are vegan cat diets but i've heard they are not very healthy for cats.

 

 

Sorry for the slight off topicness but the development of lab based meat definitely excites me even more since it solves a lot of the problems with the "obligate carnivore" pet thing.

[Voodoo 37,460]

Of course, certain methods of factory farming need to be improved or done away with entirely

The reality here is that there are way too many humans eating meat products for any of that to ever happen. Factory farming is the only economical way to feed all of those meat eaters. The only way to decrease the global impact would be for people to stop eating meat and that's just not going to happen. Agribusiness is also way too wealthy and powerful to allow for any changes to occur that would benefit anything other than the corporations' profit margins. You can wish for change but the only things you will ever control are the choices you make every day.

[Saggy 823]

 

We require protein, but it can come from any source as long as the quantities are right. Same with dogs and cats. They aren't giving dogs broccoli, they're giving them beans which imitate the consistency of meat. It's fine.

 

Welp cats actually do need meat since it has an amino acid called taurine which cats cannot make themselves. There are vegan cat diets but i've heard they are not very healthy for cats.

 

 

Sorry for the slight off topicness but the development of lab based meat definitely excites me even more since it solves a lot of the problems with the "obligate carnivore" pet thing.

 

For cats at least it's more important what isn't in their food. Taurine gets added to poultry meal and stuff, the real problem with cat food is they're purely carnivores and the foods are full of grains.

 

As far as protein goes though, a lot of Asianic countries are already using insects, like worm meal, to supplement low protein food. Kind of gross to think about but the most abundant source of protein we will probably have to rely upon soon are insects.

[el_make 369]

Good conversation going on in here.

 

It's being talked about that many of the products we use in our everyday lives contain animal ingredients;

plastic bags, nail polish, candles, toothpaste, soaps, cologne and perfume, shampoo and conditioner, tires, deodorant

and yes - even a computer most likely.

 

I myself try to limit my intake of those mentioned above, by buying cruelty free products,

such as non animal tested soaps and toothpaste. "Himalaya Herbals" brand that makes organic and cruelty free

skin care, toothpaste, soap etc. products is one of my favorite choices to buy from when needed.

I don't personally use any cologne or deodorant (sue me), so I don't even need to consider those things.

 

Organic and ecological food, clothing, cosmetics etc. seems to be in more and more growing demand as years go by.

And while we probably can never go fully (100%) animal-free (we are animals ourselves) until the day we stop breathing and die that is, I think that it's important to be more conscious of the stuff happening around us, and making more

animal and environmental friendly choices as consumers.

After all - we only got this one planet - that we all inhabit together. (/hippie talk) Going meat free was personally an easy choice for me, and am trying to, like I wrote previously in this very post, to limit my use of products containing animal ingredients by buying more consciously in the future. I even most of the time buy my beer guaranteed vegan friendly.

 

Replying back to some of the comments aimed at the OP (me):

 

 

 

"I am not saying a person should give up on trying to limit their use of animal products, it's admirable if not futile, but I resent the implication from the OP that you cannot be an animal lover and still utilize animal products. It's a hypocritically silly way to think."

 

I'll admit that I wasn't really aware of the computer part at least, (about products using animal ingredients) so thanks for pointing that out for me. I did a little more research about the use of animal ingredients in our everyday products that I already hadn't probably even known about. The soaps, skin care stuff, toothpaste etc. I was already fully aware of. While it might have been just a tiny bit of ignorance from me on that part - it's not nowhere near as ignorant & hypocritical - as someone who pets and cuddles with let's say a dog, and claims to "love animals" and "support animal rights", but still eats pork, poultry and probably drinks milk, wears leather, wool etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"As for the OP, I sincerely hope you don't have a cat or a dog as a pet and feed them "vegan" meals."

 

Yes, we own a cat, (or our cat owns us if you want to be more specific) but no - we do not feed her vegan cat food; just your average cat food that have, excluding meat, lots of good vitamins and minerals in it.

Edited April 27, 2016 by el_make

[G's Ah's 371]

We require protein, but it can come from any source as long as the quantities are right. Same with dogs and cats. They aren't giving dogs broccoli, they're giving them beans which imitate the consistency of meat. It's fine.

 

Dogs and cats have different digestive systems and different levels of protein intake. As has been posted already, cats actually need to eat meat because they otherwise cannot live a healthy life. And if you aren't willing to let them eat cat food, at the very least let them go out and catch their own food.

 

Going back to your dog and beans example, it really depends on the kind of beans that are being given and how many. Some dog foods already have beans in them. If it's just a diet of beans and other vegetables, it's actually unhealthy for the dog as their digestive system requires meat for their protein. Dogs can have an omnivorous diet but it's primarily a carnivore and as such, should be treated as one.

 

Which is ironic that I come to the conclusion that people forcing their beliefs onto their pets is highly unethical, as pets clearly cannot consent (for the want of a better word) to the diet that people are feeding them. I would also suggest that a purely vegan diet is unhealthy for cats and dogs, because both animals have digestive systems that need meat in order to stay healthy. I'm sure these people wouldn't approve of people neglecting the nutritional needs of a baby so why should their pets be any different?

Yes, we own a cat, (or our cat owns us if you want to be more specific) but no - we do not feed her vegan cat food; just your average cat food that have, excluding meat, lots of good vitamins and minerals in it.

 

You do realize your cat needs to eat meat in order for it to be healthy, right? As has already been said, cats need meat because it contains the amino acids that cats cannot naturally produce. So the meat in the cat food (I'm seriously hoping there's meat in there) is doing a lot to keep your cat healthy.

[Otter 7,900]

My business partner has gone vegetarian, and this is a guy who once roasted a whole suckling pig in his oven for my stag party. It's inspiring, and he's attempting vegan now.

 

This is such a sticky topic, but an important one. It's also difficult to avoid summary judgement from folks on either side of the equation, and there's another contingent I've seen popping up lately - the economic apologists, who claim that vegetarianism is not affordable and that moralistic positions on the subject are economically discriminatory.

 

I'm loving the conversation so far (and loving seeing Voodoo back here!) but I'm conflicted on the subject. I love meat and leather. (Heyo)

I've personally been working to reduce my intake, especially beef for environmental reasons and pork for the sake that... they're actually super smart creatures. Yes, even the big stupid farm variety; I've raised a few. And ate them.

 

I have trouble reconciling this with my values, and I think that's why a healthy vegan lifestyle appeals to me. I do think that, if you consume a product, you should be aware of its origin - remaining willfully ignorant is a bullsh*t excuse, as are defeatist comparisons and blanket accusations in regards to other products we consume. You can inform yourself and make purchases that reflect this: not all computers and clothing are the product of slave labor. Yes, it's harder to pin down, but that doesn't make the effort fruitless.

 

"Cowspiracy" (though I have trouble calling that one a documentary, very murky when subjected to scrutiny)

Is this true? I remember trying to fact check a lot of it when I first watched it and everything checked out. Granted, this was back when it was first released on netflix.

[El Dildo 14,396]

(and loving seeing Voodoo back here!)

yeah I thought I was the only one caught off guard by this...

see, I want to believe that Voodoo is a callous and emotionless automated bionic person of some kind, perhaps much like the avatars so befitting of his otherwise cold and calculating public persona; blanketed by the guise of humanity with it's darting eyes and soft smile - a pantomime! - but monochromatic and sterile below the surface.

 

I can't start thinking that he's human or it's going to wreck the illusion

_______________________________________________

 

the issue of veganism is relatively straightforward and often attractive to me in spite of the blatant abuses of the meat-producing industries. it's clearly a healthier alternative in terms of diet, digestion, and energy efficiency. the old red meat and sugar/salt diet of our recent Anglo Western ancestors is not good for longevity to say the least.

 

these days I try to eat as little beef and pork as possible in favor of free range chicken meats or various types of sea-caught fish. I've tried to cut almost all dairy out of my meals in favor of silk milks and similar yogurts. I do my best to eat as little gluten as I can find. we always have fresh fruit on hand, I drink a lot of water and juice, cut back on alcohol years ago. try to eat salads or carrots or celery with most meals, or we're always adding broccoli and corn to our pastas and rice dishes. I've found that rice and beans make a great base for a lot of meals in place of just meat/meat sauce.

 

but the issue of animal rights ans factory farming is just soaked in complexity right now.

where would you even begin? I'll try to do my best with my own shopping habits as a consumer but the human race has already bit off more than it can chew. we cannot sustain our current global population without the rate of meat production we're seeing right now. but it's easily one of the great moral follies of mankind; a constant genocide against an unfortunate, select few species that we've deemed fit for production.

 

and it obviously extends far beyond what we eat.

it's hard for me to even trust that the clothes on my back or half the items in my home aren't the product of some form of animal torture or human suffering via slave labor. it's the fashion industry. it's the pet industry. it's the waste. it's the environmental damage. it's the great moral conundrum. we tend to classify certain species, persons or beasts, as somehow slightly less than being worthy of a good life. their only value is as it relates to factory or economic output. and so here we are; the 'unwashed masses' must subjugate animals in order to survive while the wealthy elite subjugate and use us like chattel.

 

"....it's the circle of life!

and it moves us all!"

 

[Abel. 5,853]

but it's easily one of the great moral follies of mankind; a constant genocide against an unfortunate, select few species that we've deemed fit for production.

 

Obviously factory farming is disgusting, and I don't eat that much meat anyway, but I'm not sure what to make of this. One of the problems I have with the more fringe animal rights groups is that they view animals on the same level as humans (sometimes, disturbingly, they view humans as less than animals). I remember on the news some animal rights guy comparing the death of millions of rodents in experiments to the Holocaust, for example. There's something profoundly unnatural about this, and I'd feel exactly the same way even if I were a vegan. Obviously we should do our best to treat animals well, and ideally we wouldn't have abattoirs and factory farms in the first place, but I'm not about to call the meat industry a genocide or put animals on the same level as humans. I definitely think we should research lab-grown meat and such.

 

 

Arguments about sweatshops and rare Earth metal mines in Africa mean more to me.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Failure

[el_make 369]

Glad to read that some of you are cutting back your meat consumption, plus dairy & eggs too. Not only is it ethical (by not eating meat at all that is), but also a much better option health wise - and as a consumer by buying more consciously - and not supporting the cruel and inhumane mass factory farming industry with your own choices.

 

So many alternative choices nowadays - and more coming in the future I'm positive. I myself replaced meat with tofu, dairy with oat drink, and there is an option for replacing eggs too with a vegan substitute simply just called "No Egg - Natural Egg Replacer", that is gluten free.

 

I'm researching and digging up more information with alternative options as time goes by, and already have found a good amount of them already. And it's not really that I want to have an alternative for meat, with tofu, but whenever I feel like making a sauce with pasta or macaroni - I use pieces of tofu and fry them in canola oil, and mix it up with the ready pasta sauce to go with either the pasta or macaroni dish.

Edited April 29, 2016 by el_make

[Sir Michael 5,279]

Back in 11th grade, my English class watched a documentary on the food industry, I think it was called Food Inc, and one thing I can clearly remember was seeing chickens having their throats slit and the video describing their rapid rate of growth compared to several decades ago. There was also a part in the video where workers just tossed chickens into cages like garbage, placing said cages on a semi trailer to be shipped off to a processing plant. The stuff they do to those animals is pretty unethical, and images like that can leave a strong impression on anybody regardless of their stance on the subject. However, I don't know if I can give up on eating meat since it's what I've been eating most of my life, but I'd be willing to give it a shot if I can find food that I can regularly eat that can substitute that meaty flavor I've known my whole life.

 

As of now, I can't think of a clear cut solution to this problem since there are maybe billions of people around the world that incorporate meat in their diets. As long as the demand for meat is there, the status quo will remain, and like El D said, there's just too many people on this planet to just call for an end to these practices, despite the health and environmental hazards they present. Edit: Sorry in advance if I took your post out of context.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sir Michael

[Eutyphro 2,894]

I can't ethically justify my consumption of meat--or any animal products, really--but having grown up regularly eating beef, chicken, drinking milk, etc., it's hard to imagine my life without it, especially fried chicken. Holy sh*t fried chicken tastes good. I'm aware of the ecological problems caused by factory farming and so forth, and I've wanted to go veg for a while now, but I just can't wean myself off the stuff. I'm just a morally-bankrupt individual lacking in willpower, I guess. <| 8^[

 

In high school my philosophy teacher had a genius response to this. He'd say "but a pedophile could say, having sex with children is just too damn good". Lol, but anyway, I feel the same way about it. Good food is just too damn good. I'm eating a lot less meat than I used to actually, but I don't think I'll ever go vegatarian or vegan. I actually disagree with radical ecoethicists that the instrumental use or killing of animals is fundamentally evil. What I agree with though is that raising billions of animals in horrible sickening conditions is evil, and it is not only evil from the perspective of animal welfare, but also from a climate perspective.

 

Part of the problem is that there are just too damn many people on the planet. I recently interviewed a well known bioethicist, and I asked him "wouldn't it be most morally superior to not live at all?" I asked him this because considering overpopulation, not damaging the planet, especially in a Western lifestyle, is impossible. He actually responded that he didn't oppose suicide on ethical grounds, but also that each individual has legitimite interests that count as well, which don't have to be discounted completely for other beings.

 

This is kind of where my disagreement with bioethicists is located. U purely utilitarianistic suffering-opposing life view is what Nietzsche would probably call a 'life hating ideology'. Suffering, animals eating other animals, people raising, killing and eating animals respectfully, is just the natural circle of life. But humans have become a plague and our practices have become disgusting. So since recently I eat a lot less meat, and buy more organic food. That's probably as far as I'll go. I have lots of respect for people who go beyond, but I don't believe it is my duty to do so. The plague of humanity destroying the planet just isn't my fault. My responsibility goes as far as limiting the harm I cause to a reasonable degree, though what is reasonable is definitely open to discussion. Besides that, I also think I have a responsibility to not get too many children from this perspective. Those are all interesting things to think about.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Eutyphro

[El Dildo 14,396]

Arguments about sweatshops and rare Earth metal mines in Africa mean more to me.

in that case I'm just baffled that you fail to make the connection.

 

...allow me to elaborate.

 

(sometimes, disturbingly, they view humans as less than animals). I remember on the news some animal rights guy comparing the death of millions of rodents in experiments to the Holocaust, for example.

first of all; this is not me.

I'm saying that animals should be equals with humans in as much as they possibly can be.

 

I'm certainly not say that humans are below animals.

humans are animals. I trust you understand that much... right? I'm saying that we should strive to level the playing field because we're all animals and we're all just sharing the same planet Earth.

 

I'm not calling the farming industry the Holocaust.

that was the slaughter of 6 million Jews by Hitler.

 

but factory farming - in its current state - is a type of ongoing genocide against those select species of animals we have deemed fit for production. obviously not all cows, chickens, and pigs are butchered the same way, but by and large the vast majority of these animals are kept around only for slave-breeding; when the milk stops flowing and they go sterile they're thrown into the meat grinder. their kin are born into horrific conditions to live out a brief and tortured life that ends with them being beaten and kicked and prodded and bled out and slowly carved to pieces and dismembered along with all of their brothers and sisters, often while most of them are still conscious and kicking and feeling... all so that McDonalds can sell $0.87 cent Big Macs and we can buy bacon for pennies.

 

there's a way to kill and prepare meat.

but as the industry exists today, these are just torture and death factories.

 

it's the attitude we take towards nature.

it's the attitude we adopt as humans towards other living creatures. if we're willing to treat certain animals this way, it's an extremely short next step to the subjugation of human cattle. it speaks directly to the way we exploit one another as human beings. you want to talk about sweatshops and rare mineral mines? THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL FACTORY FARMS.

[G's Ah's 371]

Glad to read that some of you are cutting back your meat consumption, plus dairy & eggs too. Not only is it ethical (by not eating meat at all that is), but also a much better option health wise - and as a consumer by buying more consciously - and not supporting the cruel and inhumane mass factory farming industry with your own choices.

 

I'm not going to cut back on meat or dairy (I don't eat eggs simply because I don't like the taste) purely because I don't have a particular problem with the ethics, as I live in a country with animal welfare laws that are actually enforced and that you can get organic options that are unprocessed and have better nutritional values than processed meat and dairy products.

 

What I take issue with is your claim that it's healthier if you don't eat meat. That is actually false. Meat, especially if it's unprocessed, is rich in a huge amounts of vitamins and other nutrients that can only be found in meat. In addition, all those claims that meat causes diseases and certain cancers is either bogus or has a very, very weak link that is more to do with the overall health of the person rather than any inherent carcinogens present in meat.

 

And of course, the source for anyone who is interested: https://authoritynutrition.com/7-evidence-based-health-reasons-to-eat-meat/

 

Also, you haven't answered my question when I asked if your cat food contains meat.

[Otter 7,900]

Let's avoid any possible woo in this discussion please, from either direction. And moral grandstanding - if we can keep that on the back burner, I think we'll all have a better time. I don't care what he feeds his bloody cat when we live in a world where people feed their cats f*cking whiskas.

[Clem Fandango 4,979]

Australia has factory farming, and what qualifies as 'free range' still involves elements of factory farming.

 

You're the only one who considers the cat thing relevant. You haven't explained it either. Do we have to produce so much meat for cats that we may as well continue on as we are? Is this taurine stuff impossible to synthesise?

[el_make 369]

 

 

Also, you haven't answered my question when I asked if your cat food contains meat.

 

Yes I did:

 

 

 

Yes, we own a cat, (or our cat owns us if you want to be more specific) but no - we do not feed her vegan cat food; just your average cat food that have, excluding meat, lots of good vitamins and minerals in it.

 

We feed her average cat food that has meat in it. After doing some research about the subject - a cat probably needs to eat mainly meat based food to keep healthy, yes - unless you have some super duper (funny word) well produced vegan substitute option specifically made for them available. If you were confused by what I meant with the "excluding meat" part, was that I personally don't consider meat as a good option, in general, (vitamins and minerals are a very good option of course) but for a cat it's (meat) most likely a necessity in their diets, as carnivores that can't produce the amino acids and vitamins in their bodies the way herbivores or omnivores do.

 

Moving away from that topic now:

 

 

 

I'm not going to cut back on meat or dairy (I don't eat eggs simply because I don't like the taste) purely because I don't have a particular problem with the ethics, as I live in a country with animal welfare laws that are actually enforced and that you can get organic options that are unprocessed and have better nutritional values than processed meat and dairy products.

 

That's probably what they'd want people to believe; that the animals all have good living conditions before they are slaughtered (by cutting open their throats and letting them bleed to death in the pile of their own blood, or sometimes hanging by their legs from a ceiling). "Yeah, we enforce the animal welfare laws good, don't worry about it." - an example sentence someone involved would say to the people what they'd want to hear, and the people be all like: "OK, well that's a good thing then, good to know that my meat is produced with taking good care of the animals first." Same goes for my country (Finland) - no matter how "free-range" eggs, or "organic" milk options there are out there - I think that the producers make these names to give the consumer an idea, a mental image, that the animals are doing just fine and are having a good time. I don't think that that's really the case. They're still seen as profit for the industry and are expendable and nothing more. Have you heard of the "debeaking" - a practice they do to birds - where they cut the tip of their beak - in order to minimize the damage caused by pecking another bird. That's what the birds do to another birds; peck them in the crowded spaces they live in, which is caused by stress. And these things happen in the "free-range farms" too.

 

An article from a website called "Animals Australia": http://www.animalsaustralia.org/issues/codes-of-cruelty.php

Edited April 30, 2016 by el_make