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el_make

Veganism, animal rights & factory farming

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RedDagger

You're arguing against a point that no one is making, I'm not sure how exercise is relevant. 

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Flash525

A bit late to the party here; I've watched that Earthlings documentary, and whilst I felt for those animals, I remain an omnivore. There's no way I'd be able to give up Beef, Chicken, Turkey, Pork or Fish. The documentary highlighted the worst of it, but I'm not quite sure what the documentary serves; simply because even if there was a documentary showing animals being treated really well, at the end of the day they're still killed so that we may eat them, or farmed (milk/wool) for our benefit. I condemn animal torture however (there was a scene or two in the documentary where some animals were literally skinned alive - there's simply no need for that, and it's only done for those men to feel manly (and that's questionable).

 

We've omnivores by nature, and I don't particularly feel the need to go against nature. 

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RedDagger

I suppose you also reject other opportunities to encroach on your natural behaviours, such as modern houses, electricity, supermarkets, transport, etc. As before, the essence of humanity is the agency we have instead of just going "that's our nature" like we ascribe to every other living being. You can't really bring up an argument for nature unless you can show that it actually matters whether it's natural or not, since humans very clearly are doing a lot of stuff "against nature". 

 

There's also the fact that there's a very good chance your consumption of animal products is in itself going against nature; bred on farms, processed, packaged to supermarkets or butchers; milk from cows that it isn't natural for us to consume; animals artificially bred to produce far more than would be natural to absurd degrees, be it meat, milk, eggs, wool or otherwise; the way we consume animal products is pretty hard to argue as being a system that isn't going against nature, even though that doesn't matter in the first place. 

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Flash525
59 minutes ago, RedDagger said:

I suppose you also reject other opportunities to encroach on your natural behaviours, such as modern houses, electricity, supermarkets, transport, etc. As before, the essence of humanity is the agency we have instead of just going "that's our nature" like we ascribe to every other living being. You can't really bring up an argument for nature unless you can show that it actually matters whether it's natural or not, since humans very clearly are doing a lot of stuff "against nature". 

 

All of those things have allowed life to become more convenient; they're not necessarily taking away from anything - other than (maybe) our natural survival instincts, but if those were natural in the first place, we'd not lose them by changing our living conditions.

 

1 hour ago, RedDagger said:

There's also the fact that there's a very good chance your consumption of animal products is in itself going against nature; bred on farms, processed, packaged to supermarkets or butchers; milk from cows that it isn't natural for us to consume; animals artificially bred to produce far more than would be natural to absurd degrees, be it meat, milk, eggs, wool or otherwise; the way we consume animal products is pretty hard to argue as being a system that isn't going against nature, even though that doesn't matter in the first place. 

You're probably right, but as a species, we should only ever eat fresh and organic foods, and only when we're hungry. It's society that has placed meal times and bowls/dishes/plates (allowing for portion sizes) to regulate diets and the like. Even a Vegan/Vegetarian doesn't need to eat specifically when they do, nor do they necessarily need to eat as much/little. You can buy all your Vegan/Vegetarian products from a supermarket too, or even grow them yourself, but you can't be absolutely sure they they're not packed with foreign agents either, so where exactly is it that we draw the line? It's not just animal products.

 

Not to change the subject of the topic too much, but if nature had it's way, there'd be a better balance, and in turn, less of us. The only reason animals are farmed in the way they are is due to demand; a demand set out by the human race because we can't keep a balance on our reproduction. 

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RedDagger

The point was more than using nature as an argument doesn't really make sense from multiple perspectives. There's nothing wrong with not being natural since that's like half the point of this whole humanity thing, but that also means you can't fall back to "we're omnivores" when we have the agency to break from that.

 

As for demand, the demand is more for animal products than as an innate demand forced by reproduction. We could reproduce as we are without the demand for animal products - the entire point of veganism is to remove the demand for and thus the practise of as much animal farming as possible. 

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trip

The problem is the toothpaste is out of the tube so to speak here.  Mankind has tasted meat and now will never be able to give it up.

 

Animals will never win.  The "I'm bigger than you" attitude almost always wins.  Mankind is far from nice and kind.  

 

Sure people may change over time, but evolution is such a long process.

 

 

 

*My wife is a vegetarian by diet for nearing 40 years now.  Not vegan.  She doesn't mind the byproduct of someone else's doing but could never feel responsible for the direct death of an animal for her needs.  I'm not a vegetarian but I don't eat a lot of meat and even then I sometimes get totally weirded out.  You'll never see me eat any seafood because of my emotional attachment to fish.

 

*For the record I'm just jumping in after reading RedDagger's post above... And nothing else in the thread. :)

 

 

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RedDagger

Yeah, it can be pretty daunting looking at a "perfect" goal of veganism in comparison to what we have now,  it's not something anyone can hope for any massive changes over just several years; definitely one of those slow-burning processes. 

 

One problem I don't see touched upon much, is that while veganism/vegetarianism/flexitarianism is on the rise in the Western world and that it does seem to be affecting the intended industries, there's a big ol' developing world out there - plenty of people who are technically vegan due to that being the cheapest option for them (like subsistence farmers) being an emerging market for cheap processed animal products. 

 

Yeah, gonna be a long process.

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Nico

I don't have much to contribute to this particular topic in terms of debate or discussion but I wanted to express something that's related to this subject.

 

I f*cking despise people who try constantly and hardassly to tell you how you're supposed to live your life. Veganism is becoming a thing in my country and I'm perfectly fine with the people who peacefully choose to live this way. I'm personally not willing to give up meat. But those who attack restaurants and angrily yell at everybody who come out of them -either be customers or employees who work hard to earn their income- that they are wrong are not doing anything helpful in my honest opinion. Some people are both overly sensible and outrageous these days.

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RedDagger

Ayjqb3h.png

 

If you're specifically talking about people who harass and terrorise, then, well...I'm not sure how that's specific to veganism instead of an annoyance against those who harass and terrorise for any reason. 

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