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el_make

Veganism, animal rights & factory farming

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dudclub55

You can get all the nutrition you need from 100% non-animal based sources, the only exception might be vitamin b12, but even then that's not produced in animal tissue, it's stored. Vitamin B12 is produced by microbes.

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ThatBenGuy

I’m gonna be as straight forward as possible. For vegetarians and vegans who respect my lifestyle, I am AOK with you guys. I don’t agree with senselessly killing animals for no reason. No one who can think straight does. There’s also a HUGE difference between hunting and poaching. Hunting means you kill animals LEGALLY. As far back as the time of Native Americans, there was a lot of respect that went into hunting. There were ceremonies for the animals and every part of the animal was used. Same even went for fishing, but I’ll get to that later. Poaching means you kill animals ILLEGALLY! There’s also just as big of difference between fishing and overfishing. Fishing is clearly legal and overfishing is clearly illegal. If anyone reading this STILL can’t tell the difference between hunting and poaching or fishing and overfishing, then I’m sorry but your head needs to be examined!

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RedDagger

I'm not sure where the focus on legal vs illegal is coming from since this is predominantly an ethics issue, which has no regard for legality. 

 

As with the "killing animals for no reason" thing, omni diets can be argued as doing that already. We're at a stage where plenty of people can live pretty much just as they are but without eating animal products - unless pleasure and convenience count as valid reasons, upon which it's kinda hard to argue against any form of killing animals since it can all be argued as being done for pleasure. 

 

Think yer gonna need more nuance. 

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ThatBenGuy
On 6/13/2018 at 9:56 AM, RedDagger said:

I'm not sure where the focus on legal vs illegal is coming from since this is predominantly an ethics issue, which has no regard for legality. 

 

As with the "killing animals for no reason" thing, omni diets can be argued as doing that already. We're at a stage where plenty of people can live pretty much just as they are but without eating animal products - unless pleasure and convenience count as valid reasons, upon which it's kinda hard to argue against any form of killing animals since it can all be argued as being done for pleasure. 

 

Think yer gonna need more nuance. 

There STILL is respect for animals when it comes to hunting and fishing even to this day. Not only are the cattle killed for beef to make delicious hamburgers, hotdogs, and steak, but then other parts are used to make awesome leather jackets and other products. The manure can be used for fertilizer and cows are also well-known for making milk and other dairy products. There are also plenty of byproducts from cattle that we may not even know about. As I had said, if you are a vegetarian or vegan who respects my lifestyle, I’ll show respect right back but if you’re one who constantly b*tches and complains about the fact that I eat meat, seafood, and dairy products, or that I support hunting and fishing, then just f*ck off! It’s the same exact thing as people saying “video games make you violent” or “heavy metal is satanic”, just something else. I have a younger sister whose a vegetarian as well as a friend whose a vegan. I love them both very much and respect is shown in a two-way streak. Vegans and vegetarians also need to call out their own kind when their own kind are clearly being assholes. That makes me give them extra respect points! If you can’t call out your own kind, no matter what it is then you need to grow the f*ck up! That’s how I see it!

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RedDagger

So you like vegetarians and vegans that shut their mouths unless it's to put down another vegetarian/vegan? How very...kind of you to let them do that. 

 

I'd like to point out that my post focused on necessity, not convenience or desire. The point is that their meat may be delicious, their skin may be "awesome" and their byproducts may be convenient due to their abundance in parallel with the agricultural industry, but the point is that it's not necessary to kill/farm them. Not only is it not necessary to farm animals, it's also extraordinarily detrimental to the environment and if someone thinks they have a moral duty to reduce needless suffering/environmental decay, it makes perfect sense for them to try to reduce animal farming and the reliance on animals, either through the industry or through demand. 

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ThatBenGuy
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, RedDagger said:

So you like vegetarians and vegans that shut their mouths unless it's to put down another vegetarian/vegan? How very...kind of you to let them do that. 

 

I'd like to point out that my post focused on necessity, not convenience or desire. The point is that their meat may be delicious, their skin may be "awesome" and their byproducts may be convenient due to their abundance in parallel with the agricultural industry, but the point is that it's not necessary to kill/farm them. Not only is it not necessary to farm animals, it's also extraordinarily detrimental to the environment and if someone thinks they have a moral duty to reduce needless suffering/environmental decay, it makes perfect sense for them to try to reduce animal farming and the reliance on animals, either through the industry or through demand. 

No, I was NOT saying “I only like vegetarians and vegans that shut their mouths unless it’s to put down another vegetarian/vegan”. There is a HUGE difference between putting someone down and calling them out for being assholes. Putting someone down is clearly talking down to someone else and being an asshole to them. I don’t want vegetarians or vegans to do that to each other nor do I want them to “shut their mouths”. I just want them to show respect to me and others who use animal byproducts, go hunting, go fishing, etc. Whether you’re a meat eater, vegetarian, vegan, no matter what your diet is, you are fully capable of being an asshole or being normal and if you can’t call someone out for being such because “oh, they have the same diet as me”, then there’s a f*cking problem.

Edited by ThatBenGuy

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RedDagger

And as for the second half of my post which was the main part of it, they don't need to "show respect" to those that are wilfully ignorant of the damaged caused. Since animal farming clearly causes an unnecessary amount of damage, there's no problem trying to reduce demand for it and instil change in the industry. 

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Darth Yokel
Posted (edited)

I wish I could be a vegetarian. I love animals, and eating meat is pretty much a guilty pleasure. Maybe one day I'll give it a shot. But if I do I'll have to do it slowly and get rid of meat little by little. At least the meat that I eat doesn't come from giant farms where animals live and die in horrific ways. But the fact that they still get slaughtered at the end of the day doesn't make me feel that much better about the whole thing. Like I said, a guilty pleasure.

 

I would still feed my cat with meat products though. Cats are carnivores. They literally need it to survive. It's not negotiable.

Edited by Darth Yokel

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Doctor Holliday
13 minutes ago, Darth Yokel said:

At least the meat that I eat doesn't come from giant farms where animals live and die in horrific ways.

 

Cats are carnivores.

How do you know exactly where your meat is coming from??

 

Also, humans are carnivores, too... Human beings wouldn't be humans as we know them without meat consumption. Arguably the onset of our rapid cerebral development is directly related to a high protein diet. For all PETA's moral grandstanding, meat is not inherently murder. There's nothing wrong with killing and eating for sustenance; it's as natural as nature itself. The issue is obviously with the techniques and technology we use during the process. I'm not against eating meat but I'm definitely against the treatment and rendering of the animals from which we source our meat. Could the process be made more humane and dignifying? Absolutely. Should we have a greater balance and importance placed on a well-rounded meal so that we're not growing more cows and pigs (and methane) than we need for the sake of pollution? Of course.

 

But do we need to stop eating meat because of some great moral or ethical dilemma?

Not really.

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Darth Yokel
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Doctor Holliday said:

How do you know exactly where your meat is coming from??

I buy meat from a store that's owned by a family that owns the farm where the meat comes from and I've seen the farm with my own eyes.

 

Humans are omnivores.

 

11 minutes ago, Doctor Holliday said:

But do we need to stop eating meat because of some great moral or ethical dilemma?

Not really.

It's a personal choice. I wouldn't force it on anyone. I don't even have a problem with hunters. In fact, hunting is probably ethically superior to farming meat, considering that pretty much every wild animal that isn't high enough in the food chain dies either by being eaten alive by a predator or they die from some disease.

 

When you think about it, most living things on this planet don't have a very good time.

Edited by Darth Yokel

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RedDagger
7 minutes ago, Doctor Holliday said:

it's as natural as nature itself.

This argument doesn't hold since, being humans, we're generally separate from nature - that's what the whole artificial vs natural divide is. Sure, in the past it would be a bit silly to try not eating any animal products, but now we're able to pretty much as easily as eating animal products - appeals to nature never really work.

 

While I believe the ethical argument is just as valid as the environmental argument, the environmental argument is the easier one (and this is just some random video game forum) so I'll just go with that; animal farming is very harmful to the environment (in terms of resources, space, air pollution, water pollution etc.), therefore it's ethical to reduce the consumption of animal products as much as possible.

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MyNameHere
Posted (edited)

Sometimes I don't like chicken or meat, but I love eggs, cheese, milk and on.

 

To me is hard to don't eat animal food besides being delicious, is a joke be vegan thinking gonna stop animal killing, is like saying to a gay stop being gay, that don't works like that.

 

I was watching many videos about killing animals and don't change my mind.

 

Even humans in the old days where eating themselves in a sacrifice.

Edited by MyNameHere

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RedDagger

The point is that we've developed beyond surviving by the skin of our teeth and having to make do with what we have and are able to make these choices. We don't have everyone gorging themselves on the tastiest food around because we're capable of putting needs over wants; we know plenty of things we could do that would feel good and we're capable of not doing them for the same reason. All you have to do is extend this to the downsides of farming for animal products, and it's pretty easy to realise that the wants for cheese are something you can overcome. 

9 hours ago, MyNameHere said:

is like saying to a gay stop being gay, that don't works like that.

lmao

 

no, unless you have a deathly allergy your diet is not like a sexuality

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Doctor Holliday
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Darth Yokel said:

I buy meat from a store that's owned by a family that owns the farm where the meat comes from and I've seen the farm with my own eyes.

 

Humans are omnivores.

And you never, ever buy or consume meat from any other source?

 

So yeah, like I said, humans are carnivores ;)

 

14 hours ago, RedDagger said:

1) This argument doesn't hold since, being humans, we're generally separate from nature - that's what the whole artificial vs natural divide is. Sure, in the past it would be a bit silly to try not eating any animal products, but now we're able to pretty much as easily as eating animal products - appeals to nature never really work.

 

2) animal farming is very harmful to the environment (in terms of resources, space, air pollution, water pollution etc.), therefore it's ethical to reduce the consumption of animal products as much as possible.

1) Say what? Of course it holds :lol:

Human's aren't separate from nature. We aren't robots, yet. We are nature. We are animals. Although our influence and predatory habits are very skewed, we still exist within the natural food chain. My only point was that there's nothing inherently wrong or immoral or unethical about eating dead meat. Killing and eating is as natural as anything, meat is delicious, etc etc. It's totally cool to do it, whether you personally hunted it or not.

 

2) So we're already in agreement?

After stating my first piece, that's pretty much what I said in the conclusion of my point. There's absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat but we totally need to reform the way we grow, render, and produce it. Personally? I've got a fairly balanced diet when it comes to meat, fish, veggies, and fruits (and was born with some sweet genes), but obviously I recognize the overconsumption of meat and cruel rendering practices which plague the typical meat industry and lifestyle. I acknowledge that it needs some serious new regulation.

Edited by Doctor Holliday

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Darth Yokel
26 minutes ago, Doctor Holliday said:

And you never, ever buy or consume meat from any other source?

Why would I? I don't eat processed meat, this store is in the walking distance from my home and the meat is always fresh.

 

26 minutes ago, Doctor Holliday said:

So yeah, like I said, humans are carnivores

At a risk of oversimplifying things, being a carnivore is more than being able to eat meat. Carnivores will die of malnutrition without it. Humans can eat meat and it's even healthy for us, but we don't need it. We can live healthy lives as vegetarians too. That's what makes us omnivores.

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Short Stay

As a meat eater I like to think that it gives me the ability to crush the life out of weedy vegetarians using only one fist.

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RedDagger
5 hours ago, Doctor Holliday said:

1) Say what? Of course it holds :lol:

Human's aren't separate from nature. We aren't robots, yet. We are nature. We are animals. Although our influence and predatory habits are very skewed, we still exist within the natural food chain. My only point was that there's nothing inherently wrong or immoral or unethical about eating dead meat. Killing and eating is as natural as anything, meat is delicious, etc etc. It's totally cool to do it, whether you personally hunted it or not.

 

2) So we're already in agreement?

After stating my first piece, that's pretty much what I said in the conclusion of my point. There's absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat but we totally need to reform the way we grow, render, and produce it. Personally? I've got a fairly balanced diet when it comes to meat, fish, veggies, and fruits (and was born with some sweet genes), but obviously I recognize the overconsumption of meat and cruel rendering practices which plague the typical meat industry and lifestyle. I acknowledge that it needs some serious new regulation.

The point is that, as humans, we're above doing things simply "because nature". That's how morals and ethics are a thing, because we're able to make conscious decisions outside of naturalistic tendencies; we're able to control ourselves beyond the needs of nature. That's the entire point. You can't defend something as being okay just because it's natural or occurs in nature, because it ignores the aspect of humanity. 

 

As for farming, I'm not talking about regulation or the systems in place, it's the practice of farming and the like that is inherently bad for the environment and wasteful. The only way to reduce the harmful effect in any meaningful manner is to reduce the amount of farming, preferably by as much as possible.  

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Doctor Holliday

But what are we talking about? We're talking about eating food.

It's about as base as reproduction.

 

Humans are "above" nature in several realms, sure, but in terms of eating food? You're trying to apply an elevated level of intellectualism to a theory that doesn't warrant it. Morals and ethics are a thing because we recognize right and wrong where it applies to the greater good... but eating meat doesn't fall into that category inherently. I can absolutely defend something as being OK because it occurs in nature when the argument follows that there's nothing wrong with it... because there's nothing inherently wrong with it. That's the only point I was making.

 

We don't need to shame people into being vegans and that will not work. It's classical psychology.

 

Again your logic doesn't hold water when applied en mass. I already agree with you on the individual basis, but you commit the same fallacy when talking about farming. You're painting with too large a brush. Farming and animal husbandry is NOT INHERENTLY bad. It's not INHERENTLY bad for the environment and it's not INHERENTLY wasteful. You don't seem to know what INHERENTLY means... I already agree that our meat growing and rendering practices could use serious reform. But there's no law in nature that says animal farming is evil. You don't split the atom and find the words "STOP FARMING" under a microscope... :pp

 

The practices could be obviously be improved, be made more humane, and more environmentally friendly. We're in agreement across the board. But to say that farming is "inherently" bad cries ignorance of the history and functional practice of both herding and farming. Historical farming and husbandry was practiced in a way that worked with the environment by way of crop and field rotations, grazing rotations, and ensured that fertilizer and soil was spread in such a way that the richness of land and earth actually improved over time and yields became greater as the dirt soaked up the various ingredients of each planting season.

 

Have we gotten away from that? Absolutely. Is that a problem? Yup.

But it's not written into the stone that farming is bad...

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RedDagger
11 hours ago, Doctor Holliday said:

Farming and animal husbandry is NOT INHERENTLY bad. It's not INHERENTLY bad for the environment and it's not INHERENTLY wasteful. You don't seem to know what INHERENTLY means...

The process of converting plant matter into food via animals is massively inefficient, that's the inherent part. No matter what you do, using resources for animal feed and other upkeep will always be a waste of resources compared to eating plant matter directly. As for the not properly inherent parts, we're always going to be a little stuffed in terms of handling the waste animals produce. 

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Short Stay

Like many people must have said before its the taste, texture and filling or 'meaty' properties of eating meat that I crave for and enjoy. Yes, it's wasteful, Yes, it involves animal suffering. Yes, these problems could be ameliorated to a greater or lesser extent. 

I don't want my life to be complicated by having what I shovel into my gob to be linked in a tangled web of morality, guilt and SJW issues. I just want to shovel.

 

What we surely need is for science to get cracking and develop synthetic meats, ones that can be 3d printed, with interlocking layers of meat and lovely juicy fats, covered in a roasted crispy 'skin'.

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Doctor Holliday
11 hours ago, RedDagger said:

The process of converting plant matter into food via animals is massively inefficient, that's the inherent part.

Yes.

And we can talk about methods for addressing that issue without dismantling the entire farming and animal husbandry industries in the process. Inefficiency does not equate with evil.

 

The connection between factory farming and methane production is not lost on me, but this is a multifaceted and complex problem to say the least. It's arguable that meat farming wreaks as much havoc on the environment, if not more, as all the fossil fuel cars on the road. So let's address everything that needs addressing in a balanced manner instead of singling out one aspect of our culture. Because that won't cut it, anyhow. You won't solve climate change alone by banning cars, you won't solve the issue alone by banning meat. It's all related.

 

So if we're not going to save the Earth by putting farmers out of business, let's consider the sum total of environmental impacts caused by mankind. The efficiency of farming itself could be vastly improved in conjunction with other developments that we need to be pursuing in the realm of energy saving methods. Instead of just taking a dump on the farming industry, we should be performing these upgrades and reforms simultaneously across the board in related industries such as biofuel machinery, electric transportation, synthetic animal stock/feed, and other areas of technology whose potential we haven't even tapped yet.

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Darth Yokel

Didn't scientists recently discover that if you give cows some kind of sea weed they produce like 90% less methane? And you don't even need to give them a lot of it IIRC.

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sivispacem

IIRC the impact of methane production is fairly insignificant compared to the impact of cutting down huge swathes of South American rainforest to create arable land to graze cattle for the Western meat industry on.

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MyNameHere

Sorry to throw a huge bucket of water on this nonsense, but it’s impossible to live a lifestyle that does not involve killing animals.

Anyone who has ever worked on a farm knows that agriculture is especially hard on animals. The simple act planting crops kills thousands of rodents - mice, groundhogs, etc. Agriculture drives out animals from their native habitat. Even “organic” farming involves all manner of chemicals that are hard on the environment and ultimately kill animals. Hang out on a crop farm for a couple days. You’ve never seen so much death in your life.

Oppose agriculture of scale? WTF are you gonna do, live off the tomatoes you grew in your greenhouse? Good luck with that.

I could go on and on but I doubt it’s going to change anyone’s mind. PETA and the Vegan lifestyle is a preposterous fantasy but if it helps you sleep at night, go for it...

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JayKed20
Posted (edited)

This ultra politically correct crap is going too far, unless you're a cannibal I don't care what you eat as long as you don't force other people to eat the way you do.

Edited by JayKed20

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RedDagger
On 7/11/2018 at 10:11 PM, MyNameHere said:

Sorry to throw a huge bucket of water on this nonsense, but it’s impossible to live a lifestyle that does not involve killing animals.

Anyone who has ever worked on a farm knows that agriculture is especially hard on animals. The simple act planting crops kills thousands of rodents - mice, groundhogs, etc. Agriculture drives out animals from their native habitat. Even “organic” farming involves all manner of chemicals that are hard on the environment and ultimately kill animals. Hang out on a crop farm for a couple days. You’ve never seen so much death in your life.

Oppose agriculture of scale? WTF are you gonna do, live off the tomatoes you grew in your greenhouse? Good luck with that.

I could go on and on but I doubt it’s going to change anyone’s mind. PETA and the Vegan lifestyle is a preposterous fantasy but if it helps you sleep at night, go for it...

Morality isn't a black or white decision, harming less animals is still a good and worthwhile goal over being apathetic because you can't harm zero animals. 

 

And veganism isn't a preposterous fantasy, since tens of millions of people live perfectly fine on a vegan diet. 

 

On 7/11/2018 at 11:24 PM, JayKed20 said:

This ultra politically correct crap is going too far, unless you're a cannibal I don't care what you eat as long as you don't force other people to eat the way you do.

If someone's ethical decisions affect other beings, it's pretty acceptable to make sure they're not doing anything unethical to them; as a not-directly-comparable analogy, if you saw someone kicking a dog, it's not exactly political correctness to stop them kicking the dog. The concept of "not caring as long as you don't force people" is silly, dismissive, and apathetic. 

 

The argument would be fine if the food someone ate didn't have any outside ethical considerations, but they do, so it isn't. 

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