Terror Attacks In Brussels

[Abel.]

And it's worth noting there are a great many moderate voices, past and present, in Islamic jurisprudence.

 

True, but somehow they tend to get drowned out, and this isn't always the fault of external powers. Jews and Muslims lived peacefully in the Iberian peninsula for something like 200 years, but when the Al Mohades swept through the territory that was all over and the Jews had to flee.

 

 

 

but these individuals are not the suicide bombers or mass shooters we see targeting civilians in Europe.

 

No, but they still have textbooks which teach some pretty unpleasant things regarding the West, liberal values and the Jews. I'm a supporter of religious freedom and agree with people educating their children about their heritage and faith, but there are some things which don't have place in schools which, in the end, should just be about teaching kids literacy, numeracy and the rudiments of how to cope in a diverse society. Obviously faith schools like JFS and Charedi academies in London present a different mission, but they aren't incubating bigotry or dangerous attitudes (though I do think much more needs to be done regarding English and maths education in the Charedi system).

 

 

 

And all this continues to ignore the fact that none of the above applies to the vast majority of Muslims in the West. People seem to neglect entire swathes of Islamic thought like Sufism when they construct these attacks on the religion as if it were one monolithic entity. Violent extremism targeting Europe is isolated to a small sub-group of Salafist Sunnis.

 

This is salient and needs to be pointed out more. At the same time we can't forget about Islamic extremism on the other side funded by Iran, even if it isn't a direct threat to the West right now. The main issue I have is that we've seen many examples of young, non-Salafist Sunnis in Europe, often from middle class families, turning to Salafi-Jihadism. This needs to be investigated, countered and ultimately dealt with. Sticking our fingers in our ears and saying "it's just a tiny minority" is useless, even if it is indeed a tiny minority causing issues.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure

[mr quick]

Have you read the Bible?

[Abel.]

Have you read the Bible?

 

Yes. This is what I said:

 

 

 

No, but they still have textbooks which teach some pretty unpleasant things regarding the West, liberal values and the Jews.

 

I made no mention of the Q'ran or Shariah law here. I'm talking about what is taught in certain Islamic schools. I don't believe in using verses from the Q'ran as "evidence" of how Islam is "evil" or anything as this is a ridiculous, narrow-minded way of approaching the issue. Most Kurds are Sunni Muslims are have integrated very well into the West, are running virtually the only stable place in Iraq and their extremist elements are concerned with nationalism, not Islam. Many Muslims just want to live in peace in accordance with God, which is fine.

 

There is, however, an issue regarding how scripture is used in the Islamic world. The Tanakh has some very violent passages when taken at face value, but Maimonides (one of the greatest thinkers in Jewish history) reasoned that seemingly simple messages are seen in the scipture so that everyone can have some understanding, but that there's a much deeper message which can only be assimilated through scholarship. People seem to think that rabbinical Judaism is "just" the Old Testament, but there's also the Oral Torah which Jews also believe was given at Sinai which offers a great deal more depth than the Christian view of the Old Testament. This developed into the Talmud which was basically a collection of rabbinical arguments designed as a guide for the application of Jewish law. One such law was that Jews should obey the laws of the country they inhabit at any time whilst still remaining true to their heritage.

 

"What about the Amalekites!" I hear you say. Judaism tends to view the Amalekites as a metaphor for the great enemies of the Jewish people (Roman empire, Inquisition, Nazis, you name it). In Exodus the Amalekites target the Jews just after their escape from Egypt, when they're weary and tired. This leads to the declaration that the Amalekites should be wiped from the Earth which, taken on its own, sounds genocidal. The prevailing line of Jewish thought though is this just means that the various enemies of the Jewish people will not win in the end. The Egyptians are definitely seen as antagonists whilst the Jews are in Egypt, but the Oral Torah says that God silences the angels when they try to join in Moses' song about the destruction of the Egyptian chariots in the Red Sea. At Mount Sinai it's also clearly said to "not hate the Egpytian for you were a stranger in his land" and to "not hate the Edomite for he is your brother".

 

 

 

A lot of the time punishment by "death" in the Torah really refers to a spiritual excision. Go to the Holiest of Holies in a state of impurity? Spiritual excision. If you read the Torah literally though you'd think it would mean an immediate death.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that this kind of commentary is simply not mainstream in Islam, leading to its heightened capacity for abuse.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure

[Not A Nice Person]

I'm sure that's to show solidarity, since you can't do much as the damage has been done, quoting a racist doesn't look good either.

[feckyerlife]

I thought this thread is about what happened in Brussels, the last 3 and half pages have been a debate about Islam and nothing about Brussels, isn't there a thread for that in the D&D section.

[Moth]

I thought this thread is about what happened in Brussels, the last 3 and half pages have been a debate about Islam and nothing about Brussels, isn't there a thread for that in the D&D section.

You expect a discussion about an islamic terrorist attack not to have a discussion about islam? 0_0

 

[Abel.]

They haven't implemented the "truest interpretation" of their founding texts though as there's no consensus in the Islamic world regarding what that actually is. ISIS certainly has something to do with Islam but, given that it's been disavowed by other extremist salafist groups, and this attack has actually been condemned by other radical Muslims (Hamas, Hezbollah and such) it really isn't a simple thing. There are political considerations here, it's not solely religious. Yes it's frustrating when the hard left wants to blame Western society 100% for this sort of thing but it's also not right to wave the Q'ran about and blame that at the same time. Radical Islam is a global menace, it is pervasive and has various guises, but it's also deeply tied into the political atmosphere of various parts of the world.

 

 

 

Again, I disagree with this self-loathing, far left, "blame the West" narrative, but it's not a simple issue.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure

[feckyerlife]

 

I thought this thread is about what happened in Brussels, the last 3 and half pages have been a debate about Islam and nothing about Brussels, isn't there a thread for that in the D&D section.

You expect a discussion about an islamic terrorist attack not to have a discussion about islam? 0_0

 

 

no but i expected the mod's to take control of the thread like they do with the other ones, but they seemed to contribute to the debate as well

[Fonz]

Usually when a text uses the phrase "regressive left" you can kind of stop reading because it's sure to be complete horsesh*t written by New Atheist liberals and Sam Harris cultists against an imaginary group of people.

[sivispacem]

no but i expected the mod's to take control of the thread like they do with the other ones, but they seemed to contribute to the debate as well

If you don't like the direction of the thread, extracate yourself from it and/or report it. But I can tell you now, I'm not going to stifle discussion on inarguably relevant issues as I find your in-thread complaining far more objectionable.

[Sir Michael]

This may be a bit rash for me to say, but I would have figured this place would have much tighter security to prevent something like this from happening, especially after what happened in Paris. Being the center of the EU and NATO, it's crazy to hear about a terror attack happening in a place like Brussels. These guys really sent the message that they can attack anywhere at anytime with this one.. Apparently, there was a suicide note found at the airport, along with an undetonated bomb. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/03/23/belgian-state-tv-names-brussels-attack-suspects/82153446/

[El Dildo]

[stupid rambling Facebook diatribe image]

total bollocks.

 

I've literally never met a liberal in-real-life who talks like this about the issue of Islamic extremism. I don't think these people really exist but they make for cute Straw Men when it comes to ignorant internet memes.

[make total destroy]

"Regressive left" lmao

 

I love how all these "alt-right" kiddies--who are p much fascists with memes--just started using that term last week. Buncha f*ckin knobs.

[Fonz]

I don't think these people really exist but they make for cute Straw Men when it comes to ignorant internet memes.

Nah, dude, don't you know that if you say the issue is more complicated than "lol damn barbaric mooslems", you're obviously defending ISIS and every atrocity that goes on in theocracies? I mean, what the f*ck is nuance?

[Moth]

 

[stupid rambling Facebook diatribe image]

total bollocks.

 

 

 

It's not a random person,

http://thehumanist.com/contributor/faisal-saeed-al-mutar/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_Saeed_Al_Mutar

 

 

[Sweet Bellic]

f*ck I´m really tired of current situation.We can´t even critisize terrorism and refugees on Finland without it being censored.

[El Dildo]

It's not a random person,

frankly my dear, I don't really give a f/ck.

 

if his thoughts are represented by that stupid ass facebook post, he can respectfully suck my dick.

[Abel.]

 

[stupid rambling Facebook diatribe image]

total bollocks.

 

I've literally never met a liberal in-real-life who talks like this about the issue of Islamic extremism. I don't think these people really exist but they make for cute Straw Men when it comes to ignorant internet memes.

 

 

To be fair, there definitely is an attitude on the left of hatred of our own civilisation (Western civilisation) and a pitiful desire to ascribe all of the world's ills to it. Not everyone on the left is like this but I've definitely heard people say stuff like "it's our own fault" or that the US "invented ISIS" for its nefarious interests.

 

 

The Facebook post is stupid because he claims that ISIS' form of Islam is the "purest" form of Islam or something. Given that there's a country of roughly 77 million people which considers itself very Islamic and is a mortal enemy of Wahabism this isn't really the case. Islam is broad, and radical Islam is just as broad.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure

[Fonz]

 

 

[stupid rambling Facebook diatribe image]

total bollocks.

 

I've literally never met a liberal in-real-life who talks like this about the issue of Islamic extremism. I don't think these people really exist but they make for cute Straw Men when it comes to ignorant internet memes.

 

 

To be fair, there definitely is an attitude on the left of hatred of our own civilisation (Western civilisation) and a pitiful desire to ascribe all of the world's ills to it. Not everyone on the left is like this but I've definitely heard people say stuff like "it's our own fault" or that the US "invented ISIS" for its nefarious interests.

 

There is a small sect that does this, but it's mostly Stalinist parties that come out with statements saying ISIS are "anti-imperialists" and other dumb things. Those people are mostly contrarians who just "support" anybody who's opposed to the US, though, I wouldn't pay them any attention.

[Eram]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenager-injured-brussels-terror-attacks-7611883

 

This kid should be tracked 24/7!

Joke aside, what are the odds?

[El Dildo]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenager-injured-brussels-terror-attacks-7611883

sh/t dude

and his parents say things like it was a "miracle" or "gods blessing" that their son wasn't killed in the blast.... so was it "gods blessing" that the other 30 people had to die??

 

f/ck I hate religious people so much.

[sreyazsec]

Reading these ongoing different points, I do want to say that I myself am not left or right (in case anyone has assumed based on my previous posts).
I believe that blaming an entire religion is uninformed and dangerous, but I believe in harsh punishments for extremists who are caught, and that goes for any other religious extremists also.

I do believe in the death penalty for such people, you cannot help or rehabilitate someone who is so deeply brainwashed and corrupt.

I do not however believe banning muslims from entering our countries will help. Nor do I believe the enough is being done to help the innocent people.

 

*On another point I've heard that now everyone is being thoroughly searched when entering places with groups of people, which I guess is a step in the right direction, even if only a small one*

[Typhus]

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenager-injured-brussels-terror-attacks-7611883

sh/t dude

and his parents say things like it was a "miracle" or "gods blessing" that their son wasn't killed in the blast.... so was it "gods blessing" that the other 30 people had to die??

 

f/ck I hate religious people so much.

 

And that hatred will keep things like this happening for a very long time.

[Abel.]

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenager-injured-brussels-terror-attacks-7611883

sh/t dude

and his parents say things like it was a "miracle" or "gods blessing" that their son wasn't killed in the blast.... so was it "gods blessing" that the other 30 people had to die??

 

f/ck I hate religious people so much.

 

 

Come on, can you blame his parents for thanking Gd? Their son has narrowly avoided death at the hands of radical Islam several times, they're just happy he's okay. That they ascribe his safety to a higher power is just an expression of their faith, that doesn't make them deserving of hatred; if they were calling for the destruction of all Muslims then they would be.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure

[mr quick]

Reading these ongoing different points, I do want to say that I myself am not left or right (in case anyone has assumed based on my previous posts).

I believe that blaming an entire religion is uninformed and dangerous, but I believe in harsh punishments for extremists who are caught, and that goes for any other religious extremists also.

I do believe in the death penalty for such people, you cannot help or rehabilitate someone who is so deeply brainwashed and corrupt.

I do not however believe banning muslims from entering our countries will help. Nor do I believe the enough is being done to help the innocent people.

 

*On another point I've heard that now everyone is being thoroughly searched when entering places with groups of people, which I guess is a step in the right direction, even if only a small one*

 

 

Come on now, the death penalty is cruel and unusual and should be abolished without exceptions. With a bare minimum of 4% of those executed in the US being innocent I don't think it's a risk worth taking. No state should have the ability to kill people. Additionally, that type of punishment does not deter; IIRC the crime rates in states with capital punishment were higher than those which did not.

[sivispacem]

I do believe in the death penalty for such people, you cannot help or rehabilitate someone who is so deeply brainwashed and corrupt.

This is clearly false. There have been numerous examples of people being successfully deradicalised.

[El Dildo]

Come on, can you blame his parents for thanking Gd? Their son has narrowly avoided death at the hands of radical Islam several times, they're just happy he's okay. That they ascribe his safety to a higher power is just an expression of their faith, that doesn't make them deserving of hatred; if they were calling for the destruction of all Muslims then they would be.

it's just the sentiment.

I hate the sentiment because it's ignorant and callous as f/ck.

 

we're about to blow open another huge hole in this discussion that will take it off topic, but sooner or later we just need to admit to ourselves (as a species) that we invented god; not the other way around. god doesn't exist. if he does, he doesn't exist for us. and believing that he does or that he expects certain things of us ultimately leads to all manner of horse sh/t; this modern day terrorism, the shunning of basic logic, the ignorance of human empathy.

 

it's just a stupid thing to say. think about it.

oh it was "gods blessing" that the little baby survived the plane crash... so it was "gods blessing" that the other 200 people had to die? that's what you're saying when you maintain such a mindset or a belief. they think religion is about keeping your own ego in check and being humble. it's the exact opposite. oh I survived. oh I was hand picked to survive. oh I'm so special. god's blessing. god's grace. god's will.

 

get the f/ck out of here.

god doesn't go around f/cking picking people to live or die based on mystical karma algorithms. he's not there. we need to get over ourselves but it's probably too little too late. religious fundamentalism will likely go unchecked until some radical state actors get their hands on a nuclear weapon and ruins it for all mankind. because they all just want to go to heaven. to paradise. to nirvana. religious people don't truly care about the planet at large. they believe that the world is just made up of gods creations that were planted here to serve man.

 

when you believe in heaven you let Earth become hell.

I'd rather everyone believe that there's NOTHING awaiting us in death. we should be forced to work SO HARD to make heaven on Earth while we're here. for everyone. regardless of anything. because paradise on Earth is as close as we're ever going to get to a heaven. but we're just f/cking it up so bad. our priorities and allocation of resources is so unbalanced and out of order.

 

I'm rambling. I need to go eat lunch...

[sreyazsec]

 

I do believe in the death penalty for such people, you cannot help or rehabilitate someone who is so deeply brainwashed and corrupt.

This is clearly false. There have been numerous examples of people being successfully deradicalised.

 

I just can't support that though, an eye for eye. If you have stolen someone's life, then you lose yours. No victims were given a second chance, no murderer who kills without reason should be given a second chance.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ceszayers

[Sweet Bellic]

 

 

I do believe in the death penalty for such people, you cannot help or rehabilitate someone who is so deeply brainwashed and corrupt.

 

This is clearly false. There have been numerous examples of people being successfully deradicalised.

 

I just can't support that though, an eye for eye. If you have stolen someone's life, then you lose yours.Yes you're right.

[Abel.]

we should be forced to work SO HARD to make heaven on Earth while we're here. for everyone. regardless of anything.

 

 

This is basically Tikkun Olan, a central tenet of Judaism.

 

 

 

 

because paradise on Earth

 

Basically the Messianic Age, which Judaism strives towards.

 

 

 

Not all religion is bad. We should direct our anger at instances where it's used as a violent vessel of hatred, not when it's a way of giving people hope and direction. I'm not religious or anything but some people are and deriding them for their belief isn't going to change that or inspire a more tolerant society.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Failure