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Ai®a©ob®a

Making a Murderer [Netflix Documentary]

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Ai®a©ob®a

 

 

He served 18 years for a crime he didn't commit. Now he's on the line again, and some want to see him put away for good.

 

I've been watching this lately on Netflix and can't get enough.

Edited by AiraCobra

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AlienTwo

Dude.... I finished episode 1 and thought "eh" thinking episode 2 would be about another case, not the crazy level of twists that it provided!

 

I loved this show. 9/10.

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Orange Juice

Four episodes in and it's getting really interesting, looks to be very well-documented and pieced together. Sort of like Serial but on the telly and with an added hint of inbreeding.

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feckyerlife

i feel bad for the guy. i think they were setup. which sadly happens in these small towns all the time

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Raavi

Fascinating and deeply troubling look inside the American justice system. Regardless of their innocence, and I do question very much so their innocence, it's clear that they both deserve a new trial, their was no certainty beyond a reasonable doubt, not by a mile.

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John The Grudge

I was very disturbed by Making a Murderer. I've seen a few documentaries now that show a justice system that appears to treat the law like a game where victory, rather than the truth, is the ultimate goal. I think another problem is the jury system. Anyone who lives in the real world should be troubled by the prospect of having people plucked from the herd decide their fate. What if they don't pay attention? What if they just don't like the look of the defendant? What if they're just too stupid to process the evidence? Frankly speaking the whole thing is scary.

 

On a side note I found the behaviour of the victim's brother to be very suspicious. He seemed unconcerned with the truth and was incredibly eager to get in front of a camera from the get go and declare his belief that Dassey and Avery were definitely guilty. I also thought her ex boyfriend was suspicious. He hacked into the victims voicemail and deleted messages yet not only was he never considered a suspect, the police actually gave him access to the Avery property. I think one or both of them is guilty and the police know it and framed Avery.

 

I don't know who is guilty but it's clear Dassey and Avery should have been acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt.

Edited by John The Grudge

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Raavi

SA's Motive was never established, why would a man set to make 36 million from the city that wronged him, kill someone before getting his payout, this fact alone makes zero sense. What's more is why having access to a litany of tools to completely dispose of a body and other evidence, including an industrial grade incinerator and a crusher would he burn a body in the burn pit behind his trailer and just park the victim's SUV somewhere on his property as opposed to crushing it. Granted these people aren't the brightest of bulbs, but these are slapstick movie levels of stupidity.

 

Where SA's lawyers failed in their "city police conspiracy theory" was establishing a clear motive for them. Them just hating SA isn't enough for them to go to this length framing him twice, let alone enough to convince a jury. They'd need some kind of motive, starting for example with the 40 acre plot of land with a "gravel pit" the size of a small quarry that would become SA's when his elderly parents pass away, surely a city already in financial rough seas could benefit from a 40 acre plot of land? Was the family approached to sell the land? Was there a third party with significant interest and financial gain if they were to acquire the land? Whatever theory they'd put forward wouldn't have to have been true, it'd only had to have made enough sense to cause enough lasting division among the jury.

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AlienTwo

To me it feels like the cops knew he committed the murder but couldn't prove it, so they "framed" him for a crime he committed. I think this case is full of problems and at the very least was handled by negligent police, but in my opinion he was set up by the cops.

 

Again... I still also believe he is guilty.

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feckyerlife

those anyone feel like they are about to watch some game of thrones when the intro comes on.

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I Love Anna Kournikova

To me it feels like the cops knew he committed the murder but couldn't prove it, so they "framed" him for a crime he committed. I think this case is full of problems and at the very least was handled by negligent police, but in my opinion he was set up by the cops.

 

Again... I still also believe he is guilty.

This wash my conclusion as well. They were sure he did it, they just wanted to make sure he was was put away for it by doing some shady sh*t. It almost backfired.

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John The Grudge

What evidence is there for you to conclude that he's guilty? There's evidence to suggest the body was actually burned at another location and the remains dumped in the pit behind Avery's house. We know that the victim's keys were most likely planted, which means the vehicle was most likely planted. This is backed up somewhat by the call one of the detectives made on the day of her disappearance to check a vehicle's details. It's also backed up by the fact that Avery could have crushed the vehicle with his crusher rather than park it in a location where it can be seen by anyone visiting his property. If the vehicle was planted then the blood found in the vehicle was also planted, which is backed up by the tampering found on Avery's blood sample, which is completely inconsistent with any proper procedure. We know that zero of the victim's DNA was found in Avery's home, which had obviously not been cleaned in a while. This is despite the police's claims that the murder took place there. We know that all the major evidence was discovered my Manitowoc County detectives despite them having a conflict of interest, despite the fact that they were not supposed to be involved in the investigation and despite the fact that the scene had been searched for hours prior with nothing turning up. Then we're supposed to believe that the keys and the bullet was found right out in the open? We know that the detective actually assigned to search the home said they were not there when he looked. We know that Dassey's interrogation was handled inappropriately and the information he ultimately gave was clearly fictional.

 

What's left? There's no reliable evidence that says Avery did it. Meanwhile the ex-boyfriend of the victim is hacking into her voicemail and deleting messages. Then he's getting access to the Avery property. It seems to me that he's a better suspect than Avery. So I don't believe that the detectives knew or thought Avery did it. If catching the culprit was their goal they'd have declared the ex-boyfriend as a suspect.

Edited by John The Grudge

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AlienTwo

He burned his family cat as a kid for starters... this guy just gives me the "I can murder you" vibe. Plus the fact that the photographer had been requested to come to his house and take pictures of his cars time and time again and was even attacked at one of those shoots... there is just too much for me to think he's not guilty. Some of the blood splatters weren't planted, while many others were, but there is a mix of real, weaker, evidence with the strong planted stuff.

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Raavi

He burned his family cat as a kid for starters... this guy just gives me the "I can murder you" vibe.

 

Yes, drenching a cat in gasoline and lighting it on fire is a pretty strong indicator that there's something seriously wrong with someone, the link between childhood animal cruelty and anti-social personality disorders is well established as well. Many high-profile killers are known to have engaged in animal cruelty in their childhoods. Playing devil's advocate, quite literally, here's the problem though, if it was brought up in the trial by the prosecution, and I'm not positive it has, it should have been inadmissible. Arguing one's propensity to commit a crime is called character evidence, which is not admissible.*

 

Legalese aside, SA having burned a cat on a bonfire, having ran a woman off the road and pointed a gun at her head, having allegedly sexually assaulted a relative when she was 16, strikes me as someone two-faced with severe mental issues, definitely not out of the realm of reason that he is also capable of murder. I do think a new trial would show exactly that, but at least this time it would take away the doubt.

 

The documentary wasn't really about his innocence in any case, it was to show a system open to abuse that did not adequately protect the presumption of innocence defendants in the US are constitutionally afforded.

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Not A Nice Person

Does anyone know the state this took place in? I wasn't paying close attention to the show because i was half asleep when my brother played it.

 

I think another problem is the jury system. Anyone who lives in the real world should be troubled by the prospect of having people plucked from the herd decide their fate. What if they don't pay attention? What if they just don't like the look of the defendant? What if they're just too stupid to process the evidence? Frankly speaking the whole thing is scary.

It's not too bad, the jury is supposed to show up on all the court dates and they are given time to process the verdict, also they work together so any unfair thoughts are pushed aside. (at least from my knowledge)

 

either way it should be abolished imo, i don't see anything wrong letting the court officials handle it

Edited by Sayuri

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John The Grudge

@AlienTwo I don't think she was ever attacked at his property. From what I recall she told people Avery once came out to greet her with only a towel wrapped round his waist. As for blood the only blood ever found was that tiny drop in the victim's car and science can't say whether or not it came from Avery's blood vial. None of the Victim's DNA was found at the supposed scene of the crime.

 

Avery's history isn't evidence of his guilt in this crime so it's mostly irrelevant. Another point worth noting is the car the victim was there to photograph was not Avery's. He was selling it at a family member's request.

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I Love Anna Kournikova

Does anyone know the state this took place in? I wasn't paying close attention to the show because i was half asleep when my brother played it.

 

 

Its in Wisonsin.

 

This Documentary was made by people who really wanted to get the point across that Shady stuff happened. It never told every piece of evidence. Most of the evidence that was not told was the stuff that made it look more like he was guilty. They told you everything thsat made him look innocent. All these follow up shows are telling more about that side of the case. You cant base your opinion just off this documentary alone.

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El Dildo

y'all realize that the documentary is not about his guilt or innocence.

not really.

 

it's about the treatment of the criminal justice system in relation to prejudicial biases, especially in regards to financial status, public representation, and race. in fact, arguing his guilt or innocent is almost beside the point.

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krashr

i've seen five episodes now, it's really interesting

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westsxde

On a side note I found the behaviour of the victim's brother to be very suspicious. He seemed unconcerned with the truth and was incredibly eager to get in front of a camera from the get go and declare his belief that Dassey and Avery were definitely guilty. I also thought her ex boyfriend was suspicious. He hacked into the victims voicemail and deleted messages yet not only was he never considered a suspect, the police actually gave him access to the Avery property. I think one or both of them is guilty and the police know it and framed Avery.

 

I don't know who is guilty but it's clear Dassey and Avery should have been acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt.

!!! I'm glad someone has mentioned this. Throughout the whole series I kept saying it seemed like the brother was just ecstatic that SA & BD were going to prison for life. Without really even thinking about everything said in court.

 

My mom also mentioned that she thought, the lady who found Teresa's car on SA's property just seemed so happy in her 911 call. I remember the lady was a relative to Teresa as well.

(I don't remember this part exactly but,) wasn't she trying to get in the car? And the 911 operator was getting pissed with her?

And why was this lady the only one out of the search group that was given a camera. I mean I don't think that really leads to any evidence that she was the only one with a camera but it was suspicious.

Just weird how she found the car right away while on the Avery's property.

 

Now this is not to say that SA & BD didn't kill her. But they weren't given a fair trial. At all.

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shadowoperative

Officers should have been given 1 shot to find evidence. Not go back 7 times. Ridiculous.

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westsxde

Officers should have been given 1 shot to find evidence. Not go back 7 times. Ridiculous.

I thought it was 8! Regardless, ridiculous.

 

Most EVERYONE said that all of it was bizarre conduct on the police's behalf.

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Ai®a©ob®a

 

On a side note I found the behaviour of the victim's brother to be very suspicious. He seemed unconcerned with the truth and was incredibly eager to get in front of a camera from the get go and declare his belief that Dassey and Avery were definitely guilty. I also thought her ex boyfriend was suspicious. He hacked into the victims voicemail and deleted messages yet not only was he never considered a suspect, the police actually gave him access to the Avery property. I think one or both of them is guilty and the police know it and framed Avery.

 

I don't know who is guilty but it's clear Dassey and Avery should have been acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt.

!!! I'm glad someone has mentioned this. Throughout the whole series I kept saying it seemed like the brother was just ecstatic that SA & BD were going to prison for life. Without really even thinking about everything said in court.

 

My mom also mentioned that she thought, the lady who found Teresa's car on SA's property just seemed so happy in her 911 call. I remember the lady was a relative to Teresa as well.

(I don't remember this part exactly but,) wasn't she trying to get in the car? And the 911 operator was getting pissed with her?

And why was this lady the only one out of the search group that was given a camera. I mean I don't think that really leads to any evidence that she was the only one with a camera but it was suspicious.

Just weird how she found the car right away while on the Avery's property.

 

Now this is not to say that SA & BD didn't kill her. But they weren't given a fair trial. At all.

 

Mom of Making a Murderer’s Steven Avery suggests victim’s brother was involved in her murder

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tcfanatic

A theory that's been gaining steam around the internet. If I'm not mistaken, it was first presented in a comment section of a youtube video of all places. But it sure does cover a lot of holes with this case ...

 

 

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on October 31, Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call-in" instead of "radio-in" the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4 two days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.

 

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically keep quiet about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

 

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo road on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.

 

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

 

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated -- everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right. Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom. He must have been like WTF?!

 

A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder: "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN." We will see Scott, we will see........."

I would like to expand on that theory as it relates to Brendon Dassey. If the above theory is correct, I would think that Brendon had nothing to do with the murder itself, but he WAS aware that his brother and step dad were the killers. This would explain why Brendon was so troubled and lost all that weight. I think Bobby eventually convinced his not so bright brother to help him pin the murder on Steven. It didn't quite go as planned because Brendon inadvertently implicated himself as part of the guilty party. He eventually backtracked and tried to say he made the whole thing up, but it was too late. Unfortunately some misplaced loyalty towards his brother has kept him from revealing the real truth.

 

Wouldn't it be wild if some day Brendon broke down and told the cops his brother and step dad were the real killers

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the_grizzly_man

While I don't personally believe Avery was guilty I almost think this is a secondary point.

 

The main - and perhaps only point - is that it was a completely unsafe conviction.

 

The conviction was based on a premise put forward by Brendan's extremely coerced and patently made up statement (later retracted) and evidence that, at best, is of questionable veracity (tampered blood samples, lack of dna to support the claims of the prosecution of a violent and bloody murder, evidence that common sense should suggest had been planted, lack of motive, no reliable timeline of events, officers on site when they were prohibited from being there, the involvement and personal motive of investigators who fitted the same defendant up previously for a crime and were facing impending censure for it).

 

Should have been thrown out.

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shadowoperative

No body. No murder weapon.

 

Hmmm....

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All Those Chickens

These ain't mine, I found them somewhere on a discussion about this documentary.

 

 

 

Let me sum up the prosecution's airtight" case:

A guy who is a month or two away from a $36 million dollar check gets impatient waiting for all that money and decides to rape and murder a woman that he telephonically arranges to come visit his propert
y in the middle of a weekday in full view of various people coming and going from said property. Once he gets her inside his trailer and commences with said raping, he gets a knock on his door, and answering it, he sees his nephew with the mental capacity of a 9 year old. Rather than saying, "I'm busy", he invites said nephew in to witness, participate in, and eventually confess about all the subsequent rapiness and other crimes that happen. Luckily for him, the nephew does not seem to possess any DNA, since none of it gets anywhere during the entire afternoon and evening.

Later, after much raping, stabbing, cutting, slitting, etc, that happens without any blood loss, the woman is dragged to the garage where she is shot eleven times, again without any blood loss, and also without making any sound. Later that evening, they burn the woman's body a few yards away from where several people live, without the horrifying and distinctive smell caused by a burning body.

At some point during this time, the guy and his nephew drive the woman's car (after first taking some of her bloody hair and drawing pictures with it in the back of the vehicle) to what they think is a perfect hiding spot behind 3 or 4 branches, which is located very close to a large and inconvenient car-crusher. They do this without leaving any fingerprints or the tiniest bit of DNA in the car, except for a lot of smeared blood in very obvious spots.

Three days later the police come asking questions and want to look around inside the trailer. The guy lets them do it, knowing he is safe because all of the raping, stabbing, cutting, slitting, etc, that happened in his carpeted trailer happened without any blood loss. The very next day, this guy leaves for his family's cabin 100 miles away, but decides not to bring the woman's car key, bones, teeth, cell phone, camera, etc. to dispose of far away because he knows he's loved by the Manitowoc police department and they will never suspect him and search his property.

Oh, yeah that sounds about right

 

 

 

Ok im to blow your mind here. i never thought that i might be able to add something to this case...but here you go.
I also drove a Toyota (which I have sold recently) and my k
ey appeared identical to this one. Mine was a Tacoma, hers a Rav4.
a couple years ago I locked my keys in the car. I attempted "break in" to my car in several fashions.
1. using a coat hanger thru the top of the door jam to hit the unlock button. No Luck. Upon actually depressing the unlock button the vehicle automatically reengaged the lock within milliseconds
2. using a slim jim provided and administered thru a licensed locksmith. Apparently there is a metal plate within the door that prevents access to the locking mechanism via the window via slim jim
3. after 3 hours i put my elbow thru the window of my truck in frustration. I let myself in.

My point is not the security of the Toyota( even tho its amazing) but what happened in the ensuing days. upon telling my story to a friend at the gym whom works for Toyota he said "why didnt you just call me with the VIN #? I could have cut you a new key in minutes."
Let that sink in for a second...
Theresa's DNA was not found on the key.
The key, if you take a close look at the key it looks freshly cut with absolutley no lateral striations on it. Upon examining multiple keys of my own that have been used for several years as hers would have they are present. The key in this video which appears brand new and freshly cut has none of Theresa's DNA on it. This in an of itself is a HUGE RED FLAG. I can personally guarantee with the way that i handle my keys... in and out of my pockets and such, have my DNA all over them. They are also worn.
Theresa drove a '99 Rav 4. She was murdered in 2005 (If i remember correctly).
Take a look at your 6 year old house or car keys.
Do they look this pristine?
Has anyone investigated whether another key was made via Toyota with the VIN # or possibly thru an independent locksmith?

 

My personal favorite.

 

 

 

12418090_1828331080727349_63885869074958

 

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69_black_69

Man, never thought that this kind of courtroom drama would be so interesting. I'm not really convinced at first eps, because it felt like too drawn out for me to kept me interested in the problem presented in the documentary. I mean, it's like +10 hours of documentary about something i'm not really familiar with. But i was wrong, and i'm glad i watched it through the end.

 

For my opinion, i honestly still not sure who's guilty for all of this. Certainly both sides had a compelling argument, but in this documentary, ofc it sided with the Avery's family, though i believe their evidences felt more stronger than the county to be honest. And yes, i heard that some evidences were omitted from the documentary which strongly puts Steven as a suspect, but i wont be an armchair detectives and blames everybody i think is guilty. I just enjoyed the documentary for pointing out the problem with the American justice system, which is certainly need to be addressed.

 

Now, we need another documentary that focused on the Manitowoc County side, lol

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Erik Decimus

It's damn good. Starting episode 3 tonight.

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