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make total destroy

I'd say it's much more rational than dismissing social sciences in their entirety.

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Eutyphro

I'd say it's much more rational than dismissing social sciences in their entirety.

"Dismissing social sciences in their entirety" isn't the only alternative, or the alternative that I'm arguing for, as a conclusion from dismissing postmodernist social constructivism and moral nihilism.

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DEALUX

Moral nihilists should do us all a favor and commit mass suicide. I mean they literally have nothing to lose except their ego.

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Clem Fandango

 

Could say that about your posts too my guy, just please bear with us buddy.

So you can read about something like 'cultural appropriation' or 'rape culture' and think to yourself "ah, yes, this is perfectly rational"?

 

'Rape culture' as a concept predates postmodernism by like twenty years. It isn't a postmodern concept.

 

It's also y'know, obviously true.

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DEALUX

Obviously true but completely based on anecdotal evidence? (speaking, of course, about developed countries) The term doesn't even make sense.

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Eutyphro

'Rape culture' as a concept predates postmodernism by like twenty years. It isn't a postmodern concept.

 

It's also y'know, obviously true.

Well thanks for educating me on the history of the concept 'rape culture'... And 'rape culture' is indeed a real phenomenon in the parts of the world where rape within marriage is legal, or where victims get punished after being raped, or where large parts of the population think women are asking to be raped if they are outside the home alone/not have their bodies covered significantly enough/are infidels. But the irony is that the countries where these problems are the least significant seem to have have the highest amounts of women complaining about living in 'rape culture'.

Edited by Eutyphro

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DEALUX

Well, we have something like that, men justifying rape in some cases but how rampant is that really that you are calling it a culture? I don't think that you even know the meaning of that word if you use a term like that.

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Eutyphro

For the concept 'rape culture' to be meaningful you have to contrast it with examples of non rape cultures. The same is true of the idea of patriarchy. In the case of patriarchy, what you find out is that supposed examples of 'matriarchal' cultures by feminists like certain Native American tribes have extremely rigid gender roles compared to Western developed countries. And I think the same is true of 'rape culture', that there have never been countries where the cultural norms have been so to the benefit of the safety of women as in modern Western countries. Obvious examples of 'rape cultures' that satisfy all the rational conditions I set for the term in my previous post can be found in the Middle East.

Edited by Eutyphro

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sivispacem

For the concept 'rape culture' to be meaningful you have to contrast it with examples of non rape cultures.

Eh? This is utterly perplexing. It's not a relative term, it's an observation on the normalisation of sexual violence directed at women. Come on Euty, you must be able to see how silly this sounds?

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Eutyphro

Of course it is a relative term. The term implies that compared to other cultures sexual violence is more prevalent and more normalised in a specific culture, and that it is therefore a 'rape culture'. If it is not relative then Northern European countries have 'theft' or 'murder' cultures because they have more than zero thefts and murders in their crime statistics. But if these crime statistics are uniquely low compared to other countries, and stealing and killing aren't in any way normalized, then it would be quite a ridiculous thing to call them murder or theft cultures.

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make total destroy

"Dismissing social sciences in their entirety" isn't the only alternative, or the alternative that I'm arguing for, as a conclusion from dismissing postmodernist social constructivism and moral nihilism.

 

The idea that race, gender, etc. are all socially-constructed is one that is largely accepted by sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists, and so on. Like, these aren't even 'radical' ideas anymore. This is some intro to soc sh*t.

 

Also what's wrong with moral nihilism? Do you think morals are innate or some sh*t?

The term implies that compared to other cultures sexual violence is more prevalent and more normalised in a specific culture, and that it is therefore a 'rape culture'.

Does it?

Moral nihilists should do us all a favor and commit mass suicide. I mean they literally have nothing to lose except their ego.

Nihilism and egoism > you

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DEALUX

Whether it's innate or not is kinda irrelevant but it would have to be to some extent because otherwise you can't really explain where it all came from then. Morality, if it means anything, has to do with human and animal suffering\well-being. At least that's the only objective way to measure it. Moral nihilism (AKA "every man for himself") doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a position a lot like solipsism only a little less crazy. If you want to have anything resembling a productive and satisfactory life you have to care about other people to some extent at least.

 

For the concept 'rape culture' to be meaningful you have to contrast it with examples of non rape cultures.

Eh? This is utterly perplexing. It's not a relative term, it's an observation on the normalisation of sexual violence directed at women. Come on Euty, you must be able to see how silly this sounds?

 

Except that you are totally glossing over the fact that the term makes no sense. In fact society (collectively) condemns rape. In order for a rape culture to exist you would expect rape to be legal or something. Kind of how it is in some third-world countries.

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sivispacem

Of course it is a relative term. The term implies that compared to other cultures sexual violence is more prevalent and more normalised in a specific culture

No it isn't, and no it doesn't. It's simply an observation of an excessive level of sexual violence in a particular society. It's absolutely not relative.

 

Except that you are totally glossing over the fact that the term makes no sense. In fact society (collectively) condemns rape.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. The fact that rape is generally frowned upon in Western societies does not preclude there from "rape culture" being a thing; "culture" can be confined to subgroups within society.

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DEALUX

The only thing that is a thing is that some men justify rape, something that I already granted. The only evidence we have of that happening is anecdotal evidence, which is not very strong. I wonder what subgroup you think has a "rape culture". Bear in mind that this term is generally used by feminists to describe societies in developed countries. Some of the same feminists that embrace the burqa as a symbol of women empowerment, when in reality it is a clear symbol of oppression.

Edited by ΣΓ

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Eutyphro

that some men justify rape, something that I already granted. The only evidence we have of that happening is anecdotal evidence

Actually, the EU did a survey on this. Look at the interactive graph in the article here: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sex-without-consent-acceptable-to-21-of-irish-poll-respondents-1.2882362

 

And not just men 'justify' rape. The results from the survey point out that women justify sex without consent almost equally as often as men. People often assume that on the topic of 'women's issues' the sexes on average hold different opinions, but this is rarely the case. Men and women also tend to hold similar opinions on the topic of abortion whenever such a survey is done. There are quite large differences in results depending on the country in the EU poll though. In Romania 55% think sex without consent can be justified under some circumstances and in sweden 6%.

Edited by Eutyphro

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Clem Fandango

For the concept 'rape culture' to be meaningful you have to contrast it with examples of non rape cultures.

So what, the amount of sexual violence we see in society is normal and natural?

 

Anyway your argument makes about as much saying "in order to discuss biological life on Earth, we need to find aliens."

 

 

 

If it is not relative then Northern European countries have 'theft' or 'murder' cultures because they have more than zero thefts and murders in their crime statistics.

Of course we have a culture of theft and murder. What do you think criminology concerns itself with?

 

 

 

But if these crime statistics are uniquely low compared to other countries

Umm, they have well understood institutional means of dealing with crime. Rehabilitative justice, social programs, welfare state etc. The existence of those responses demonstrates that crime is apart of their social structure. Similarly the West has comparative low levels of sexual violence, because there are conscious attempts in society to reduce and eliminate it.

 

 

 

The same is true of the idea of patriarchy. In the case of patriarchy, what you find out is that supposed examples of 'matriarchal' cultures by feminists like certain Native American tribes have extremely rigid gender roles compared to Western developed countries.

You can't be a matriarchy without rigid gender roles, dingus. I don't know why you're putting it in quotes either, it's a totally legitimate anthropological term. It means women have social power built into their position. Patriarchy meanwhile means that social power is held by men. We live under a collapsing patriarchy, not comparable to the pre-patriarchal tribal structures you're so fond of misrepresenting.

 

 

 

And 'rape culture' is indeed a real phenomenon in the parts of the world where rape within marriage is legal

Marital rape wasn't criminalised throughout the West until the 90s.

 

 

 

where victims get punished after being raped

So literally nowhere but the modern middle east?

 

 

 

where large parts of the population think women are asking to be raped if they are outside the home alone/not have their bodies covered significantly enough

Well that's pretty arbitrary. So if only a small part of the population thinks that, it doesn't qualify?

 

 

 

But the irony is that the countries where these problems are the least significant seem to have have the highest amounts of women complaining about living in 'rape culture'.

A society with large scale opposition to sexual violence has less sexual violence? Well quelle surprise.

 

 

 

social constructionist irrationalism

I don't know what you mean here. Do you not believe in social constructs?

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Eutyphro

So what, the amount of sexual violence we see in society is normal and natural?

Yes. No matter how gravely you punish sexual violence, you will never absolutely reduce it to zero. Human beings are not angels, and crime will never completely disappear.

 

Of course we have a culture of theft and murder. What do you think criminology concerns itself with?

No not really. Theft and murder aren't cultural constructs. Though due to cultural, historical or economic circumstances theft and murder might increase, human beings will always steal or murder to an extent merely out of individual moral failure.

 

Umm, they have well understood institutional means of dealing with crime. Rehabilitative justice, social programs, welfare state etc. The existence of those responses demonstrates that crime is a part of their social structure.

It proves the exact opposite. It proves that preventing crime and punishing crime is part of our social structure. And of course it is, because crime occurs naturally because human beings are not angels.

 

You can't be a matriarchy without rigid gender roles, dingus. I don't know why you're putting it in quotes either, it's a totally legitimate anthropological term. It means women have social power built into their position. Patriarchy meanwhile means that social power is held by men. We live under a collapsing patriarchy, not comparable to the pre-patriarchal tribal structures you're so fond of misrepresenting.

I'm putting it in quotes because matrilineal cultures are confused for being 'matriarchal', which simply doesn't exist. Even in those matrilineal cultures deemed matriarchal the feminine is identified with nature, the family, harvest, and masculinity with culture, the army, religious authority etc.. It is all pretty universal and constant. In these supposed 'matriarchal' cultures the traditionally feminine domains are deemed specifically important because of contingent facts. I've been reading comparative mythology, and what you find out is that masculinity and femininity are significantly constant cross culturally.

 

What I meant to point out was that women have more self determination and freedom under these supposed 'collapsing patriarchies' than under any supposed 'matriarchy', and gender roles are far stricter under them than in modern Western countries.

 

Marital rape wasn't criminalised throughout the West until the 90s.

In some countries it was earlier, but at least we've done so. Better late than never.

 

Well that's pretty arbitrary. So if only a small part of the population thinks that, it doesn't qualify?

In the West the part of the population that most often agrees with this are probably Islamic immigrants. They aren't popular ideas among white native Europeans. So if you want to look for a rape culture, look elsewhere.

 

A society with large scale opposition to sexual violence has less sexual violence? Well quelle surprise.

Sure. But there is a difference between 'opposing sexual violence' and pretending you live in a 'rape culture'.

 

I don't know what you mean here. Do you not believe in social constructs?

I 'believe' in social constructs but I also know human beings have a nature.

Edited by Eutyphro

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sivispacem

 

So what, the amount of sexual violence we see in society is normal and natural?

Yes. No matter how gravely you punish sexual violence, you will never absolutely reduce it to zero. Human beings are not angels, and crime will never completely disappear....Wait, are you genuinely suggest that it's impossible to decrease levels of sexual violence prevalent in society from their current point? That's in essence what you're saying by claiming that the level of sexual violence currently prevalent is "normal and natural".

 

If you really did mean to say that, and you didn't just misspeak or misread, that's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post.

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Eutyphro

What I'm arguing for is that 'an' amount of murder, theft, and rape is natural. Not the amount 'we' (wherever that may be) have now. Human beings will always make moral errors regardless of the society they live in, because human beings are fallible. Whether sexual violence statistics can be reduced far further than in a homogeneous Western rich egalitarian country like Iceland remains to be seen.

The main point though is that there is no credible rational argument that indicates that Western countries have ‘a rape culture’, and that there is something peculiar about our culture which makes rape in any way normalized or accepted, beyond the natural moral failings that human beings commit because of the simple fact that they are not angels.

According to you 'rape culture' means "an observation of an excessive level of sexual violence in a particular society". But isn't all sexual violence excessive? There is never an amount of sexual violence 'within reasonable limits'. Even if within a century one rape occurs in a country of a hundred million people, it would still be excessive. Then what basis is the mere observation of something being 'excessive' for caling it a 'rape culture'? It makes the term 'rape culture' degenerate into meaninglessness. How I propose 'rape culture' be defined is that a rape culture is a community where the sexual violence can be understood through a range of cultural attitudes and laws, examples of which I've mentioned, and that these cultural attitudes and laws contribute to a rise in sexual violence.

Edited by Eutyphro

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Hayduke

'It'll happen anyway' isn't a reason to not try and prevent it or minimize it. If you honestly believe what you're saying has any point or value, you'd be obliged by your own logic to jump off a bridge being as everyone dies anyway. Regardless of whether or not the west has a 'rape culture' sexual violence against women is common and I'm pretty certain that the causes can be mitigated much more than they are currently, you'd have to be way too cynical or way too ignorant to say otherwise.

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Eutyphro

'It'll happen anyway' isn't a reason to not try and prevent it or minimize it.

Where exactly am I arguing that sexual violence shouldn't be prevented?

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sivispacem

What I'm arguing for is that 'an' amount of murder, theft, and rape is natural. Not the amount 'we' (wherever that may be) have now.

Go back and look at what you quoted in your response. This is not what you actually said.

 

The main point though is that there is no credible rational argument that indicates

In your opinion. Which means you are, in essence, saying that the level of sexual violence in Western societies is "acceptable".

 

According to you 'rape culture' means "an observation of an excessive level of sexual violence in a particular society". But isn't all sexual violence excessive?

I don't for one minute believe sexual violence can be reduced to zero. But all reasonable measures should be taken to reduce it to as close a level to zero as is possible. And as long as groups in society perpetuate, act as apologists for, attempt to cover up, trivialise or excuse sexual violence- which numerous social groups do- then the accusation remains valid.

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make total destroy

I 'believe' in social constructs but I also know human beings have a nature.

 

 

 

 

"Human nature" is a social construct.

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Eutyphro

in essence, saying that the level of sexual violence in Western societies is "acceptable".

No

Edited by Eutyphro

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sivispacem

 

in essence, saying that the level of sexual violence in Western societies is "acceptable".

NoAhem:

 

 

So what, the amount of sexual violence we see in society is normal and natural?

Yes. That's EXACTLY what you said.

 

Aside from that, your only two counterarguments seem to be "you can never completely remove sexual violence from society" and "rape is not generally normalised and accepted in society", neither of which actually constitutes a response to the idea of rape culture.

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Eutyphro

You should really just stop misrepresenting what I say and pretend that I'm arguing that certain criminal acts are 'acceptable' because I've never said that. That's bullsh*t.

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Hayduke

I don't know about anyone else, but the only reason I responded is because I find it pretty annoying when someone makes a statement that is completely useless. Whether or not you can eliminate sexual violence completely is irrelevant so stating it is more of a waste of my time and everyone else's than if we all just stared at a wall for five minutes rather than having to view what you've written.

 

You don't need to point out that nothing can happen perfectly because everyone knows this. If you're simply trying to be Devil's advocate then you're bad at it.

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sivispacem

You should really just stop misrepresenting what I say and pretend that I'm arguing that certain criminal acts are 'acceptable' because I've never said that.

By saying something is both normal and natural, you are saying it is acceptable. Behavioural norms are, by their very nature, societally acceptable. And claiming there's a "natural" level of baseline sexual violence which Western countries have, according to you, achieved, is effectively stating this is "acceptable" whether you like it or not.

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Eutyphro

You don't need to point out that nothing can happen perfectly because everyone knows this. If you're simply trying to be Devil's advocate then you're bad at it.

Oke, well let's rewind to understand why I made this point. I was responding to the idea that Western countries have a 'rape culture'. Melchior argued that all sexual violence or crime in general is caused by the cultural aspects and the institutions that form society. I disagreed with this and argued that crime will always occur regardless of culture or society because of the simple fact that humans as individuals can be both good and bad, and humans are not perfectly good. Then I gave an alternative definition of 'rape culture' which gives the term meaning in stead of degenerating it into meaninglessness.

 

As for sivispacem, his definition of 'rape culture' which is "an excessive amount of sexual violence" is just completely vapid, or it is arguing for the idea that there is such a thing as 'non excessive sexual violence' which would be a bizarre and disgusting thing to say.

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Hayduke

Right well this is all semantics and it's pretty boring. Do you yourself believe that the way in which a society operates doesn't impact to a large extent how the people in that society are treated by themselves and react? If so do you not think (if you believe in good or bad people) that any society should put in place a structure in which bad things are mitigated so that less people suffer or are harmed by bad people?

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