Crazy Mechanical Know How (Or Not)

[Cudwieser]

Fair point, but even still. Every manufacturer kind of aims for such success even if the remit is targetted at a particular market.

 

Here is a holy grail of too much of a good thing. The fabled 911 930T. Many a mug bought it not truly grasping the previous 40 years of development from something Porsche had planned to kill off for the reason of more mass market acceptance. Yuppies bought it for presense and bravado not grasping the tail happy nature of the car mixed with rampant torque and power (ok 300 bhp is no longer rampant, but in a 1200kg car it is still a handful for some). Many a fool ended up in a hedge with snapped braces and an insurer writting up a premium to retire on. It is still an excellent car and one that has now evolved into one of the best all round sports cars, back in the 70's and 80's it was still struggling with new fangled turbos (not new , but now mass market) and unadapted anything (you always have to take a pioneer from a distance and with great respect).

[sivispacem]

The only difference is thst Porsche adopted the folklore around their product killing people and actually used it as a selling tool.

[K1FFLOM]

In Germany the Audi TT-fix was mandatory, so it was a recall over here.

I remember half a dozen accidents at the time, of which at least one was a deadly one. This accident was just down the road from my place on the Autobahn "A2 / Bielefelder Berg" where the driver had to brake suddenly and swerved (because of no down-force on the rear axle) underneath an articulated truck.

And from what I can remember all the other accidents were of a similar nature, and in Germany.

 

To carry-on with Audi is that the make itself was only a last-moment idea as the nameright was bought by VW from Mercedes-Benz in 1964/65.

 

 

BMW:

Can anyone here name the founders and the year they first called the company that name ? WITHOUT using wikipedia ?

This nauseating company has always relied on other companies to build cars and killed-off some companies on their way too:

- Dixi/Austin

- ISO

- Mercedes-Benz

- Glas

- Rover

- Rolls-Royce

 

The Rover-story is one of the worst German industrial fcuk-ups, imo. In the early 1990s BMW was looking for something front-wheel driven for their line-up. But like in their history, up to then they wanted to do it the cheap way.

So the Management at BMW took a look at Rover and thought " yup, lets buy them ! "

But it was after they bought Rover, that they saw that none of the vehicle blue-prints were to be found at the R&D department in the UK. No they weren't in Europe at all. They were in Japan with Honda as all of the current fwd line-up was developed by Honda in Japan.

The only fwd-blueprints they found were of the Mini (1959) and the frugal Austin Maestro/Montego.

 

So that was why they had to develop the Rover 75 (and the Mini) anyway and dropped the whole Rover-thing afterwards, when they were finished with the rape and kept all the good stuff too (Mini, 4wd knowhow etc.)

 

Th Rover 75 Estate was introduced by the new owners and not BMW. With the ammount of money they had, Rover died a decent death.

 

Like the band on the Titanic and Scott in the Antarctic, the guys did their best in the situation.

 

 

Mercedes-Benz:

 

The A-Class catastrophe of the late 90s is similar to the TT-hiccup. Uncapable engineers and managers doing their job.

Also the other vehicles at that time and those that were developed then are some of the worst Mercs: They rust like hell !

And to give a Renault a Mercedes-badge says it all too. The 4-banger engines for the fwd-vehicles are all dervived from Renault engines too. Why develop anything own, if it is cheaper abroard, lol

 

VW:

 

Where should I start

Staying put with air-cooled engines for too long ?

Being too close to politics ? ( since the early 50s ! )

Maybe for buying the Rolls-Royce Group in the late 90s without knowing that BMW had a tie-in with the aircraft-department of R-R ?

Incompetent engineering (water condensation in engines freezing-up in winter and causing them to burst ?)

...

ach..

Too much to list.

 

In my opinion there is no such thing as "Quality from Germany" anymore.

 

- All the bridges in this country are falling apart. Trucks aren't allowed to drive on many motorway-bridges.

- The autobahns in Poland and Netherlands are in a much more better state than here. The potholes just get filled-up with bitumen and the surface gets worse every spring.

- Unable to build airports (look-up "new airport Berlin")

- Politicians that move to manager-posts in companies when they feel like it.

 

Geez.

How I love this country and it's super industry, LoL.

[Cudwieser]

Without assistance BMW is the Baverial Motor Works. They made aircraft engines (presumable this was their origin in motors) and the ensignia is a prop in motion. As to year I can't give you info off bat, but it was Pre WWII as their first car was the Austin 7 license built as the dixi (I'm going to disagree with the screw up of austin as that was a British Leyland carbuncle and screwed long before BMW bought rover. The Mini adventure is another story). I am assuming BMW were a foundry before they made motors?

 

On the point of quality it seems the east has moved west (trabant anyone. Who knew cardboard was a building material)

Edited October 31, 2015 by Cudwieser

[K1FFLOM]

Basically you are right about BMW. And even I don't know the names of those 3 or 4 people who founded BMW, by heart. But I just find it amusing, that every petrolhead I have asked before, knows the founders of every other make but they hesitate when I ask about BMW.

 

That the Trabant was made out of "cardboard" was the same reason why the Land-Rover was made out of aluminium:

Shortage of steel and looking for alternatives.

And that the guys in, what used to be the German Democratic Republic, could have done better we all know. Because their proof is in the car-museums of Eisenach (yes, BMW were made in Eisenach, which ISN'T in Bavaria, before 1945). Zwickau and Chemnitz (where Audi and other luxury cars were made before 1945). They just weren't allowed to build those cars with rotary and diesel-engines, because simply the 2-stroke engines were good enough

That region of Germany used to be the centre of the German automobile industry.

It was only politics what destroyed it in the end.

 

I don't laugh at the Trabant, because I know what those people are capable of.

 

 

I want to leave politics aside with my following statement. I just want to explain the craftsmanship with the following words: German car quality plummeted downhill after Thursday, 31st August 1939.

Edited October 31, 2015 by K1FFLOM

[sivispacem]

In Germany the Audi TT-fix was mandatory, so it was a recall over here.

I remember half a dozen accidents at the time, of which at least one was a deadly one. This accident was just down the road from my place on the Autobahn "A2 / Bielefelder Berg" where the driver had to brake suddenly and swerved (because of no down-force on the rear axle) underneath an articulated truck.

And from what I can remember all the other accidents were of a similar nature, and in Germany.

All the fatal accidents, or at least the large majority of ones I've ever seen referenced involved heavy braking and manoeuvring from high speeds. The spoiler constituted a fairly minor dynamic change; the big differences were ESP, rear wishbones, front bushes and full geometry.

[DMC14]

 

In Germany the Audi TT-fix was mandatory, so it was a recall over here.

I remember half a dozen accidents at the time, of which at least one was a deadly one. This accident was just down the road from my place on the Autobahn "A2 / Bielefelder Berg" where the driver had to brake suddenly and swerved (because of no down-force on the rear axle) underneath an articulated truck.

And from what I can remember all the other accidents were of a similar nature, and in Germany.

All the fatal accidents, or at least the large majority of ones I've ever seen referenced involved heavy braking and manoeuvring from high speeds. The spoiler constituted a fairly minor dynamic change; the big differences were ESP, rear wishbones, front bushes and full geometry.

 

 

the spoiler was the original recall. later ESP was offered as a retro fit option that you would have to pay for (after another person died (pretty sure in germany)). i dont know at which point they made changes to the suspension.

Edited October 31, 2015 by DMC14

[Cudwieser]

 

In Germany the Audi TT-fix was mandatory, so it was a recall over here.

I remember half a dozen accidents at the time, of which at least one was a deadly one. This accident was just down the road from my place on the Autobahn "A2 / Bielefelder Berg" where the driver had to brake suddenly and swerved (because of no down-force on the rear axle) underneath an articulated truck.

And from what I can remember all the other accidents were of a similar nature, and in Germany.

All the fatal accidents, or at least the large majority of ones I've ever seen referenced involved heavy braking and manoeuvring from high speeds. The spoiler constituted a fairly minor dynamic change; the big differences were ESP, rear wishbones, front bushes and full geometry.

 

I would wonder if any car is truly at ease at high speed when drastic maneuvers are required. The ford explorer (I pick it out as a paradigm for very good reason) and other suv's are very wobbley when veering at any speed above 30mph, Sports cars are better but even with a low centre they are prone to lose of traction and disaster, I feel that for every dynamic fault the driver has a lot to say in it. Reaction and over reaction often exacerbate what would otherwise be a minor problem by simily easing off and taking a split second to think.

 

 

 

Basically you are right about BMW. And even I don't know the names of those 3 or 4 people who founded BMW, by heart. But I just find it amusing, that every petrolhead I have asked before, knows the founders of every other make but they hesitate when I ask about BMW.

 

That the Trabant was made out of "cardboard" was the same reason why the Land-Rover was made out of aluminium:

Shortage of steel and looking for alternatives.

And that the guys in, what used to be the German Democratic Republic, could have done better we all know. Because their proof is in the car-museums of Eisenach (yes, BMW were made in Eisenach, which ISN'T in Bavaria, before 1945). Zwickau and Chemnitz (where Audi and other luxury cars were made before 1945). They just weren't allowed to build those cars with rotary and diesel-engines, because simply the 2-stroke engines were good enough

That region of Germany used to be the centre of the German automobile industry.

It was only politics what destroyed it in the end.

 

I don't laugh at the Trabant, because I know what those people are capable of.

 

 

I want to leave politics aside with my following statement. I just want to explain the craftsmanship with the following words: German car quality plummeted downhill after Thursday, 31st August 1939.

 

Franz Josef Popp is noted as the lead founder along with two others of BMW. If you were to ask any petrolhead and lover of engineering which people founded which Asian (see Japanese) or Soviet (see Russian) auto maker, you hit a minefield greater than that of BMW. While there is a broad logic to most of the names it is still spectacular.

 

I know you want to avoid politics and I was laughing at the Trabant, but it must be said that necessity is a mother of invention and the invention of many soviet country or state has to be mentioned, even if it is wierd or short of what the aspire to create (yes a lot of soviets are good engineers, just ones with a very limited budget )

[K1FFLOM]

I know.

But BMW is the "in" thing these days and owners not knowing what they are driving just makes me LoL. lol

 

Oh...

 

And for russian ingenuety, may I mention the GAZ - 3105 from 1988/1989 ?

A good-looking 4-door saloon with a V-8, all-wheel-drive and ABS. They actually made around 250 cars. I am personally looking for a brochure of that model....

 

Or the ZIL- 4102 from 1987/1990 ?

A large front-wheel drive saloon which, if it would have entered the western market as planned, would have been sold via Rover-dealerships. It would have been available as a V-6 with 4,5 litre, V-8 with 6,0 litre or a diesel-engine with 7,0 litre displacement....

Edited November 1, 2015 by K1FFLOM

[Cudwieser]

I'm going to disagree. The Zil would have flunked on two counts. The fuel mileage would have been suspect as well as emission. Lada was forced out of the west for various malodies and eventually emmissions. A lot of soviet cars weren't well built and properly tested. Also many western cars (such as Cadillac, Rolls, Bently and Merc) would have run rings around the Zil. Also the price is likely to have been crippling due to import costs.

 

As for the Gorky made 3105 I agree it is better looking than some, but would still be out matched by the carlton, and even the thema or maserati Bi turbo.

 

Also, like the zil, build and price wouldn't have helped.

[sivispacem]

 

 

In Germany the Audi TT-fix was mandatory, so it was a recall over here.

I remember half a dozen accidents at the time, of which at least one was a deadly one. This accident was just down the road from my place on the Autobahn "A2 / Bielefelder Berg" where the driver had to brake suddenly and swerved (because of no down-force on the rear axle) underneath an articulated truck.

And from what I can remember all the other accidents were of a similar nature, and in Germany.

All the fatal accidents, or at least the large majority of ones I've ever seen referenced involved heavy braking and manoeuvring from high speeds. The spoiler constituted a fairly minor dynamic change; the big differences were ESP, rear wishbones, front bushes and full geometry.

 

the spoiler was the original recall. later ESP was offered as a retro fit option that you would have to pay for (after another person died (pretty sure in germany)). i dont know at which point they made changes to the suspension.

The spoiler and suspension was one recall, in Europe at least and I'm fairly certain in the US (http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/1999/10/21/audi-tt-in-safety-recall/6138/). Americans and possibly some other countries had to pay for the ESP retrofit but it was free in the UK and I think Europe, hence the UK centric forums using whether or not a car has ESP as a method of determining whether it's been subject to the recall. The spoiler itself is for lift reduction rather than downforce.

[K1FFLOM]

I am certain, that the recalled cars (at least over here in Germany) were sent back to the factory in Hungary to have the spoiler, the suspension and the ESP fitted there. The only thing the dealer had to do was supply the courtesy-car and determine a time-schedule.

[sivispacem]

The US cars were returned to dealers and retrofitted by engineers flown out by Audi. Think all of the European cars were recalled back to Hungary.

[K1FFLOM]

I'm going to disagree. The Zil would have flunked on two counts. The fuel mileage would have been suspect as well as emission. Lada was forced out of the west for various malodies and eventually emmissions. A lot of soviet cars weren't well built and properly tested. Also many western cars (such as Cadillac, Rolls, Bently and Merc) would have run rings around the Zil. Also the price is likely to have been crippling due to import costs.

 

As for the Gorky made 3105 I agree it is better looking than some, but would still be out matched by the carlton, and even the thema or maserati Bi turbo.

 

Also, like the zil, build and price wouldn't have helped.

 

I guess the prices of these cars would have been very acceptable, if they would have benn built, or as of the GAZ-3105, been offered in Western-Europe.

A while back, on a russian site, there were a couple of GAZ-3105 on offer. Prices started at around 8000 and the most expensive one was about 15.000 Dollars.

 

Or lets take the new Lada Niva Urban, for an example. With a new transmission-design, electric windows, -mirrors, and central locking it costs about 7000 Euros:

http://www.lada.ru/cars/4x4/urban/prices.html

 

Frugal and basic the Lada Niva may seem. But it is far from an unreliable or bad automobile. My good Friend owns a 2012 model (the regular version, not the "Urban") and we have done a couple of journeys with it towing a trailer to pick up cars from abroard (Switzerland, Austria etc) it never let us down and the ride is more comfortable than you would expect. I say it is much more comfortable than a Landcruiser "Troop Carrier" or a Landrover 90.

 

Yes, I'd rather sit in a different vehicle during a crash, but I love the quirkiness of the thing, lol.

Edited November 1, 2015 by K1FFLOM

[Cudwieser]

The Niva was a surprisingly decent seller in Europe. A window cleaner in my town drove one religously. Russians do utilitarian very well, but refinement, no. Even basics are to be desired. My father owned a riva. The panelling was roboust, but suspension, tracking, general wear on the car was abominable. Tyres were forever blowing and wearing out, The steering was vague and the electrics gave him grief on more than one occassion. It was a cheap car, but there were other cheap cars he'd bought that merely needed oil changes and perishables (like his Austin Montego Estate).

[K1FFLOM]

The Lada Niva "Urban" has got got air-conditioning and heated seats as a "refinement" .

 

Ive just found-out that this version (Urban) will be available in Germany as a replacement for the regular version which will be discontinued due to EU-regulations.

 

What would y'all think if I would sell my CRX and go for the Niva.... ?

[Cudwieser]

Why not both. The crx isn't overly expensive unless you are dropping god knows what for the vanity of it. If you are just running the car then why not both. The niva should take the abuse and why not do used.

[epoxi]

Definitely don't sell the CRX, it is only appreciating. All care you've taken of it, the money you'd get right now wouldn't be enough to justify selling.

[K1FFLOM]

I was only kidding,lol.

Too many memories are with the CRX, she's like a family-member to me.

Of course I'll keep her.