Oh, Rockstar...

[Lester-The-Molester]

I just started appreciating TLaD more after starting a new game, heck I'm in love with it, but does that mean I have to make a thread on how TLaD is better than V or some sh*t? Nope, I appreciate each GTA for what it is and hell there's so many wrong things in V like stupid design choices and some missing stuff but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. To me no GTA is better than another, each one offers a unique experience and I really wish these arguments would stop.

[Official General]

How can this forum make a great GTA when they can't even make up their mind about what it is. This game would be a complete disaster. Some people on this forum want the cops to pull you over for speeding then complain that V's cops are too aggressive.

 

Lol you can't be serious. It was Rockstar themselves that couldn't make their minds up about what V was really all about. As professional career criminals, we were supposed to be pursuing dollars and riches for our own gain, but for most of the game we find ourselves being errand boys for government agents, dealing with terrorism, carrying out Special Forces-style missions, stealing cars for some billionaire because he's 'bored', and being payed very little to nothing for it to add insult to injury. Then for side activities we with have bullsh*t like yoga and triathlon. Sometimes I thought I was playing Splinter Cell, COD, or The Sims at different times - but GTA ? I couldn't really say it always felt like it. Now I don't know where the hell Rockstar got these wack ideas from, but it certainly was NOT what the fans wanted, at least on here.

 

But hey, according to you it's still the fans fault, we are still to blame for Rockstar's decisions, yep everything is down to us because we completely controlled and influenced the development process.

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster. Rockstar have already done a good job of ruining the game themselves, I can't see what more damage fans on this forum would do if they were to make V or any new GTA. As far I'm concerned, I reckon the best V modders are could do a way much better job with V in a week than what Rockstar did in the five, long years it took them to the damn game and come up with mediocrity.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Official General

[Algonquin Assassin]

I just started appreciating TLaD more after starting a new game, heck I'm in love with it, but does that mean I have to make a thread on how TLaD is better than V or some sh*t? Nope, I appreciate each GTA for what it is and hell there's so many wrong things in V like stupid design choices and some missing stuff but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. To me no GTA is better than another, each one offers a unique experience and I really wish these arguments would stop.

Nonsense. As GTA fans it's in our blood to wage war on the fanboy battlefield and go head to head what the best GTA is. There's no room for softies here that appreciate how each game offers a unique experience.

 

THIS IS SPAAARTAA!!!

[PhillBellic]

 

I just started appreciating TLaD more after starting a new game, heck I'm in love with it, but does that mean I have to make a thread on how TLaD is better than V or some sh*t? Nope, I appreciate each GTA for what it is and hell there's so many wrong things in V like stupid design choices and some missing stuff but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. To me no GTA is better than another, each one offers a unique experience and I really wish these arguments would stop.

Nonsense. As GTA fans it's in our blood to wage war on the fanboy battlefield and go head to head what the best GTA is. There's no room for softies here that appreciate how each game offers a unique experience.

 

THIS IS SPAAARTAA!!!

 

Yeah. Down with that sort of thing.

[Fuzzknuckles]

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

[slimeball supreme]

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

 

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

 

WHAT???

WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

Edited September 27, 2015 by Mr. Fahrenheit

[UshaB]

THIS IS SPAAARTAA!!!

 

Dude, I'm not sure if y'know but this is clearly the GTA Forums actually. Just take a nap, calm yourself and you should be fine in the morning. Peace I'm out.

 

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

WHAT???
WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

 

Yeah, didn't know that until now. I just researched it up. All you gotta do is, "Beat The Cock".

Edited September 27, 2015 by UshaB

[PhillBellic]

 

THIS IS SPAAARTAA!!!

 

Dude, I'm not sure if y'know but this is clearly the GTA Forums actually. Just take a nap, calm yourself and you should be fine in the morning. Peace I'm out.

 

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

WHAT???

WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

 

Yeah, didn't know that until now. I just researched it up. All you gotta do is, "Beat The Cock".

 

Yep. Here's more Info.

 

Peace.

[Lester-The-Molester]

 

I just started appreciating TLaD more after starting a new game, heck I'm in love with it, but does that mean I have to make a thread on how TLaD is better than V or some sh*t? Nope, I appreciate each GTA for what it is and hell there's so many wrong things in V like stupid design choices and some missing stuff but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. To me no GTA is better than another, each one offers a unique experience and I really wish these arguments would stop.

Nonsense. As GTA fans it's in our blood to wage war on the fanboy battlefield and go head to head what the best GTA is. There's no room for softies here that appreciate how each game offers a unique experience.

 

THIS IS SPAAARTAA!!!

Ok... YOU WANNA PLAY ROUGH? OK. SAY HELLO TO GTA ADVANCE!

[UshaB]

.................hello gee-tea-ay- advance

 

 

I'm scared........MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUM!!!!

 

[Osho]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that a lot of people can admit the flaws in V but still get a lot of enjoyment out of it?

They do acknowledge. It seems you don't want to admit that they do.

So what if you make them acknowledge that a person can get a lot of enjoyment out of GTA V despite a million flaws in the game?

Such arguments imply that there are people who focus too much on what others think about their enjoyment, and when countered by a strong critic, they begin their constant complaining by targeting others being too negative, too biased, nostalgia freaks, blah.. blah, blah..and that attitude really gets to me.

Some people actually won't acknowledge that maybe game has major flaws that puts people into the position of genuinely not able to enjoy the game the way millions do, and thus they can't lie and acknowledge GTA V as some great piece of gaming experience.

Its a decent game in its own right, but by no means a great GTA game, at all.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Osho

[Fuzzknuckles]

 

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

 

WHAT???

WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

[Official General]

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

 

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

Oh sorry Fuzz, I should have emphasised I meant near enough a disaster by GTA standards - to me a 7 by GTA standards is clearly a disappointment. As general gaming standards go, it's not a disaster its just an ok game with high quality in certain areas, nothing special, so overall I give it a 7.

 

I had no issue with the triathlons in SA, because there was a ton of other features to my taste that I found either fun or interesting. There were many features, side missions, and activities in SA that were so much to my preference that I could allow for less appealing powder-puff stuff to exist alongside the rest. As for TBOGT, it had less than SA, but it still had a good number of features that I really enjoyed and took interest in, so it was a similar case there too.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Official General

[drahnier]

I'm sure this has been said a million times but the problem with GTA 5 as a single player game is that they obviously focused all of their effort on the cash cow that is Online. The single player is half-assed and unfinished.

 

The story is short, the missions are linear and easy like the whole game is a tutorial, and it's missing some obvious things like a mechanic for owning cars. You can buy cars in the game but if you actually use them and drive them somewhere they disappear. I assume they could have easily added a car insurance mechanic like in Online but apparently they didn't bother, this highlights the problem of not enough effort going into single player.

 

As a single player game i think San Andreas is still the best GTA by far, and i would also rather replay Vice City than GTA V.

 

I have played Online a lot and i like how it's not just a free sandbox, i like that you have to work to get money and have car insurance and things, because it's basically an RPG and that is exactly what i would want rather than a shallow action game about blowing things up.

[slimeball supreme]

 

 

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

 

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

WHAT???

WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

 

Seriously?

 

 

No, I'm serious. I've had no clue of its existence.

 

Did you make this?

[Dee-account-with-1kbans]

 

 

This is painful to watch. I love how in denial the minority voice is on this forum. And it IS the minority, wether it thinks so or not.

 

In denial about what may I ask?

In denial about the fact that a lot of people do like the game even if it isn't perfect.

Actually. No one is in denial about that. It's very clear the game is successful

[Official General]

 

 

 

This is painful to watch. I love how in denial the minority voice is on this forum. And it IS the minority, wether it thinks so or not.

In denial about what may I ask?

In denial about the fact that a lot of people do like the game even if it isn't perfect.

Actually. No one is in denial about that. It's very clear the game is successful

Futo you could tell these guys this until they are blue in the face and they still will ignore it. They are only gonna keep shoving sales figures down your throat to override any point you make. The way they see it, as long as many people still like V, any critcism or disliking of the game can easily be overlooked and not be acknowledged. Quantity over quality is their approach it seems.

[Fuzzknuckles]

 

 

 

 

In my view, the game being very disappointing critically for me is not far off from being a disaster.

Still votes it 7 out of 10.

 

Genuine question - how did you feel about the triathlon in San Andreas? Or the vehicle triathlons in TBOGT? Was that a sign that you were about to get personally betrayed by people you don't even know?

Wait, there's a triathlon in GTA: SA?

WHAT???

WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON???

Seriously?

 

 

 

No, I'm serious. I've had no clue of its existence.

 

Did you make this?

 

No, I just found it on the 'tube.

 

Looks like you're going to have to play San An again.

[drahnier]

 

 

Futo you could tell these guys this until they are blue in the face and they still will ignore it. They are only gonna keep shoving sales figures down your throat to override any point you make. The way they see it, as long as many people still like V, any critcism or disliking of the game can easily be overlooked and not be acknowledged. Quantity over quality is their approach it seems.

It's true, that's also why Justin Bieber has to be considered one of the greatest artists of our time.

[Osho]

Even I didn't realize about the triathlon during the release. It was a surprise when someone told me about not one, but TWO triathlons exist in the game. Its not easy to figure out during the normal playthrough as they happen only on fixed days and are unlocked upon completion at certain stage in the story.

More details

But once you play then its really FUN. Better than the sh*tty V one.

SA triathlons are rewarding, not easy, nor have any rubber banding sh*t, and require some efforts to pass.

[Niobium]

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

[Gnocchi Flip Flops]

Some people on this forum want the cops to pull you over for speeding then complain that V's cops are too aggressive.

I'm really beginning to wonder if I should block you. When you keep making idiotic accusations like this - especially without backing them up - it really makes you look like a fool. First of all, nobody wants the cops to pull you over for speeding. When V was on the verge of launching, many troll threads were created including one claiming that cops pulled you over for speeding. Do you have any idea how mad people were? Even I was in there confused. Nobody wanted that and nobody wants that.

 

I know this may just be an example - though I'm getting sick of your examples as they feel like you're just taking the piss at others - but you wanna know why people complain about the cops being too aggressive in V? I'll tell ya:

 

It's not that they're "too aggressive" it's that they're annoying and poorly integrated into the game. People wanted the cops in IV to be improved but not quite the way Rockstar went about doing it. In IV, the cops were fat and lazy. They were very funny and the police vehicles were also pretty cool but a trade off was how lazy they were and how poorly they drove in police chases. They were always crashing and playing catch up. An improvement, in my eyes, would've been to make sure they don't under/overestimate the corners they take and to be a little more athletic and challenging in foot chases.

 

Well in V things were different. A lot of improvements were made, such as the police vehicles and line of sight. But a few questionable ones were made too. You never see any cop cars driving around nor roaming the street. Kind of stupid right? An assumption would be "Well it's not like New York, you don't see cops all over the place especially in the suburbs-" um, yes you do. I live in a suburb towards the outskirts of my town and it's pretty middle class. A 13 year old community, not much crime. But you always see sheriff cruisers and the occasional cop car. They're not rare. And there are always cruisers on the side of the road eager to catch somebody doing as little as 5 over the speed limit. There's no excuse, there should've been cops on the road.

 

Back to the actual cops in the game. So improvements were made but it all falls apart when you gain a wanted level. You can gain a wanted level from things like standing next to someone on the sidewalk, standing still in the same area as a cop, revving your engine, driving "too close" to a pedestrian even when you're just parking or cutting a corner at an intersection when you're allowed too, shooting in the wilderness, and honking repeatedly at someone who gets "scared" and calls the cops. When stuff like this happens, I just sigh and enter the wanted level down cheat. You're probably like why, right? Don't you want to have fun with the cops every once and a while? To be honest, no. Never.

 

When the cops are actually on your case, it usually starts with one star. But when they see you, if you're in a car, it automatically climbs up one star. On foot, make one move and you get another star and instantly they start shooting at you with 99% accuracy. The accuracy in IV was abysmal, I admit. About 20 NOOSE officers were shooting at me at once in IV and I was able to run in front of them and then take cover without getting shot at all. So the accuracy needed work, but they overdid it in V. It went from too easy to downright annoying and unrealistic.

 

When you decide that you want to start a chase, things instantly start to make you regret that decision. You could be driving a painfully slow pickup or a lightning fast T20. The cops are much quicker than you and no matter what you're driving, their cars are heavier. Now, technically that isn't true, hop behind a cop car and it feels like it should. But during a chase, the cops have the ability the rubberband. Rubberbanding, where whoever is chasing you suddenly gets a boost of power and force and surges forward no matter what they're driving or how fast they're driving. So you're near top speed on an empty freeway in your Zentorno and you've got some cops behind you. Driving fleet Declasses and Vapids. All of a sudden one of them "speeds up" and rams you. Yeah.

 

Pathetic. That was overkill. They didn't need to do that. In GTA I like to drag out my cop chases but I don't want the cops to have superpowers to help with that. I would've liked it much better if the cops didn't rubberband. With more cars and choppers spawning out of nowhere up ahead, I'm sure the chase would be able to carry on without rubberbanding. And on the topic of cops spawning out of nowhere, that also was overdone. Especially in the air. A chopper spawning out of nowhere above you when you're up at 2000ft? Really? Overkill.

 

But what really irks me is the way they ram you. Granted it's because of the rubberbanding, but goodness it's annoying. They don't try the PIT maneuver, they just ram you and no matter what you're in or how fast you're going you just spin or veer off the road. And if they pass you, they have mind reading capabilities and know every single move you're about to make. Want to steer right, they're already on it. Left, that too. And with the weight inconsistencies in this game, you cannot ram them out of the way.

 

Because of all of those things, I went from at least liking cop chases in IV but thinking they needed help, to loving them because I don't like being chased in V. It's a chore. It's not fun or thrilling, it's just annoying. I just want to have a generic chase across the city making tricky maneuvers and doing some stunts without damaging my car too much but that is definitely too much to ask for. From the rubberbanding - this really kills it - to the ramming and the 99% shooting accuracy, I just don't want to be bothered with the cops at all. They looked so exciting in the trailers. But in reality all I get is annoyed. In IV, when the cops were on my tail, I felt like I was in a movie. Barreling down narrow streets in my Super GT and Making last minute powerslides onto different roads to try and throw off the cops. It was genuine fun. But in V, try that, it just feels silly. And you'll get rammed and spin out and shot up all until your car will look like a molten piece of plastic which takes a few minutes without cheats. They feel so scripted. So I simply don't bother with the cops. They're not fun. They don't even have a sense of humor. They're unfunny.

 

And then we have the NPC chases. Even when I try my hardest to stay away from the cops they're forced upon me.

 

Lemme give you a scenario:

 

I'm having a nice time. Cruising down the boulevard in my Carbonizzare, top down, The Lab blaring on the radio. It's a nice and peaceful sunny day along the Great Ocean Highway heading back into Los Santos and I'm role-playing by following all of the road rules and just chillin'. I get to a stop light sit behind traffic as cars pull in behind me. I hear sirens from behind, then yelling. Another NPC cop chase. I hear lots of banging then gunshots then screaming and maybe even a chopper. The driving AI gets scared as a result, the drivers in front of me hop out of the cars and runaway screaming. The drivers behind me are scared and floor it. BAM! I'm rammed and being shoved out of the way. My beautiful car is banged up and drivers are ramming into me. The peaceful atmosphere I was savoring was gone in seconds. Now I'm annoyed. I'm pretty much forced to use the health cheat after I angrily drive away from the scene.

 

Another scenario. I'm on the highway and a chase spawns behind me. The criminal drives pass me but the cops are ballistic. One rams the back of me as I swerve to the side of the road to avoid them. Sometimes I'll gain a wanted level which instantly climbs up to two stars, other times they'll just shove me out of the way.

 

It's annoying. I thought they'd be fixed on current-gen but judging from the continuous complaints and videos, it's still the same.

 

So there you have it, woggleman.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Scaglietti

[woggleman]

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.

[Gnocchi Flip Flops]

 

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

 

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.Okay?

 

And what are we supposed to do? "Ohp, guess my opinion's not important. Guess I should f*ck off now." No. 'Fraid it doesn't work that way.

 

You've been reusing this argument for 2 years now. It needs to stop.

[woggleman]

 

 

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.

Okay?

 

And what are we supposed to do? "Ohp, guess my opinion's not important. Guess I should f*ck off now." No. 'Fraid it doesn't work that way.

 

You've been reusing this argument for 2 years now. It needs to stop.

 

Your opinion is your and you have a right to it but developing for a vocal minority instead of the majority is just stupid business.

[Zello]

 

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.

 

Closed mouths don't get fed if we don't voice our opinions it won't be heard

Also just because a lot of people like something doesn't mean I have to like it. If everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it? Just because everyone else is?

 

Now I didn't like V but I won't slam it either it added a couple of things I liked putting the top up/down on convertibles, when your car flips over it flips it back up and introduced a three character switch system. Never thought that we would have multiple characters in a GTA game. It introduced North Yankton into the GTA universe and for the first time ever we got to see snow.

But the story was disappointing playing as an errand boy for the FIB, The story ran around in circles, the entire game really turned me off and didn't make me want to replay it again. The side activities? I guess you can call them that weren't really fun I mean yoga seriously?YOGA?WHAT???? The businesses were annoying and didn't feel like businesses. V also lacked a lot of crime based activities it felt like GTA was going soft

Edited September 27, 2015 by Zello

[Gnocchi Flip Flops]

 

 

 

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

 

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.

Okay?

And what are we supposed to do? "Ohp, guess my opinion's not important. Guess I should f*ck off now." No. 'Fraid it doesn't work that way.

You've been reusing this argument for 2 years now. It needs to stop.

 

Your opinion is your and you have a right to it but developing for a vocal minority instead of the majority is just stupid business.

 

What?

 

Rockstar is one of those companies that can do whatever the f*ck they want and still make more money than they did before. They have such a big fanbase and it's fair to say that it will stay that way for a while.

 

I'm not going to talk about V here but there are companies that do their own thing and are successful. Some are too arrogant to take requests and some just like to stay true to tradition.

 

Back to V, the vocal "majority" is likely a bunch of preteens who this game shouldn't even be marketed towards. Everybody, or at least most people, on this forum usually knows what they're talking about. They know their stuff about GTA and all of that. Go to places like YouTube or Reddit or Instagram and these GTA "fans" a.k.a. "vocal majority" will say and do the dumbest sh*t and if you bring up interesting facts about GTA they won't even know or care what you're on about. Half of them, hell less than half, even know what any of the cars in the game are based off of. They couldn't give any less of a damn about what the game has to offer other than the fact that they can kill kill kill and speed and earn bank to spend on hoes and tasteless apartments.

 

The vocal majority doesn't give a sh*t. The vocal majority couldn't give any less of a sh*t what Rockstar does as long as it doesn't affect the driving or killing.

[woggleman]

 

 

 

 

it's not just here that people are disappointed with V. i've seen a lot of people dissatisfied with this game outside this forum. so i'm not convinced that it is just a "vocal minority". the number of people who think V was lackluster is at least significantly high.

It is a vocal minority but the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in general who bought it seem to like it The people who don't like IV are much larger.

Okay?

And what are we supposed to do? "Ohp, guess my opinion's not important. Guess I should f*ck off now." No. 'Fraid it doesn't work that way.

You've been reusing this argument for 2 years now. It needs to stop.

Your opinion is your and you have a right to it but developing for a vocal minority instead of the majority is just stupid business.What?

 

Rockstar is one of those companies that can do whatever the f*ck they want and still make more money than they did before. They have such a big fanbase and it's fair to say that it will stay that way for a while.

 

I'm not going to talk about V here but there are companies that do their own thing and are successful. Some are too arrogant to take requests and some just like to stay true to tradition.

 

Back to V, the vocal "majority" is likely a bunch of preteens who this game shouldn't even be marketed towards. Everybody, or at least most people, on this forum usually knows what they're talking about. They know their stuff about GTA and all of that. Go to places like YouTube or Reddit or Instagram and these GTA "fans" a.k.a. "vocal majority" will say and do the dumbest sh*t and if you bring up interesting facts about GTA they won't even know or care what you're on about. Half of them, hell less than half, even know what any of the cars in the game are based off of. They couldn't give any less of a damn about what the game has to offer other than the fact that they can kill kill kill and speed and earn bank to spend on hoes and tasteless apartments.

 

The vocal majority doesn't give a sh*t. The vocal majority couldn't give any less of a sh*t what Rockstar does as long as it doesn't affect the driving or killing.

 

Keep telling yourself that it is only preteens. I love IV and EFLC but if R continued to go down that road V would not have been nearly as successful. The GTA name sure didn't sell EFLC in large part because it was connected to IV.

[hornedturtle]

I like how gta IV fans act like they are more mature, yet dismiss gta V fans as kids. This thread puts a smile to my face every morning. Thanks scag

[Dee-account-with-1kbans]

I like how gta IV fans act like they are more mature, yet dismiss gta V fans as kids. This thread puts a smile to my face every morning. Thanks scag

Don't judge a full basket by a few bruised apples.

Edited September 27, 2015 by FutoLover