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Dee.

What is your POV on theism and vice versa?

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Not A Nice Person

this argument...

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Abel.

How exactly is that bullsh*t? That's what the book says.

 

That's what the Torah says. However, not one rabbi in the world would tell you to take the Torah absolutely literally. You pick up any Tanakh (Torah in book form), and there will be a commentary based on the works of historic rabbis (Maimonides, Schneerson, Hirsch, etc) to help you decipher the many allegories and metaphors that make up the body of the Torah's messages. Indeed, this is the point of the Talmud (historically the Mishnah): it's there to collect different rabbinic views together so that all Jewish authorities can have their say to produce a better understanding of the Torah.

 

Sure, you'll never find a Modern Orthodox rabbi who will condone gay marriage, and you will never find a Charedi rabbi who will even go near the issue, but active condemnation of homosexuality really doesn't come up in the mainstream Orthodox world, and the Charedim will probably never talk about it. As with any religions you'll get the occasional extremist (Yishai Schlissel springs to mind), but that's certainly not a product of Judaism itself but outside factors.

 

Many reform rabbis, and even some conservative rabbis, are happy to include Jewish homosexuals in religious life and interpret the passage quoted in this thread as a way of discouraging the use of rape (specifically sodomy) as a weapon. I'll concede that this is pretty reaching, but you have to understand that the nuance of classical Hebrew is utterly lost in an English translation. Also, who's more qualified to talk about this, me and you, or someone with a rabbinical qualification?

 

 

 

I actually quite like the Halakha (Jewish law). I don't pretend to follow it to any meaningful degree beyond giving to charity and trying to avoid gossip (indeed, I quite like a cheeseburger), but I really think it's a great guideline for life and has helped a monumentally beset group of people retain purpose and structure during the worst of times. Disagree with me? Fine. Shout me down? Then you're as bad as the fanatics you claim to revile.

 

 

 

I might be coming off a bit strongly here, but do hear me out. The Charedim (the so-called "ultra orthodox", though I don't like the term as it implies an extremist outlook) are deeply religious, but are also deeply insular. Conversion to Judaism is not something to be taken lightly and Charedi Jews, unlike devout members of other faiths, won't try and actively convert random people; they don't put leaflets through your letterbox, they don't proclaim their faith using microphones on the high street. Sure, part of this is out of habit (doing such activities in certain places will get a Jew beaten up), but it's mainly because there's a deep recognition amongst Jews that you're better off leaving people alone sometimes. According to Jewish tradition, Jews, as part of their covenant with G-d, have a duty to try to help the world by committing mitzvot (good deeds, often charitable good deeds) and to encourage belief in one God through the Noahide laws. That's it. There's no attempt to spread Judaism as a faith, nor is there an inborn intolerance to others (indeed, Ruth and King Herod were converts to Judaism, and Jonah's mission is specifically to help the people of the Nineveh, who were not Jews).

 

 

 

At the end of the day, I think everyone could benefit from this piece of wisdom from the sage Hillel: What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.

 

 

 

At the end of the day I don't claim to be a Jew (indeed, I think this would be a grave offence to real Jews), but I do strongly respect them. Ultimately I'll respect those who respect me and my views.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, a little aside to the people who claim that religion breeds intolerance. I know a secular Egyptian girl who's proud of her people's faith and learned Arabic to appreciate it more. At the same time she's more than happy to be friends with me despite my pro-Israel stance; we actually had a good laugh about something from the Egyptian gutter press which claimed that the Mossad had been deploying sharks in the Red Sea to attack tourists. I have another Muslim friend who is devout but was interested in learning more about Judaism and any similarities which might exist between it and Islam. Sure, I don't particularly like Islam, and I'm sure he's not overly fond of Judaism, but this coexistence is certainly possible and should be encouraged (according to Jewish tradition ISIS would certainly be in the wrong, as would any Islamic radical, but a typical Muslim would certainly merit the world to come as he'd automatically be following the Noahide laws). This lad also had a strong interest in martial arts and Chinese culture, which is anything but monotheistic. Contrast this with an atheist friend of mine who comes out with a lot of...shall we say questionable?...remarks about Jews and Muslims.

 

 

 

I loathe radical Islam and want nothing more than to fight it, but I see no reason why devout Jews, Muslims and Christians, and atheists, can't coexist.

Edited by Failure

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Dingdongs

Sivis-

 

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but where? I've seen criticisms of particular organised churches of Christianity, criticism of the content of the bible, but can't see anyone claiming that all Christians are hateful bigots.

By claiming that the content of the Bible is inherently bigoted and further claiming that anybody who follows Christianity must be in full agreement with the Bible, the implication is there.

 

 

 


I don't expect people to have coherent arguments about these things because the majority of them aren't really exposed to them. They're ignorant, which goes some way to explaining why they don't have similar specific critiques. A lack of explicit condemnation shouldn't be confused for tacit agreement.

 

That isn't the issue. I'm not talking about Muslims who fail to condemn Takfirism. I'm talking about the fact that whatever you want to call the ideology of people who criticize Christianity, they have a soft spot for Islam and won't ever say a single bad word about it, while in the same breathe condemning Christians as all a bunch of hateful bigots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote one post where someone said that people who follow Christianity are bigoted hateful people? And how are we sh*tting on it? When you have dozens of people with different views, it's not always gonna be easy to connect the dots. Also, we can discuss Islam too. I've got a lot of stuff to get off my chest about it.

see above

 

 

 

You must not get that most atheists don't hate the religious people, but the religion itself. Would you hate someone if they liked a different ice cream flavor then you? Liked different bands? What if they liked Lincoln Park and you didn't? And vice versa? That's how it works. But on a larger scale. Because religion is a wide topic to discuss upon.

That's a silly comparison. A different ice-cream flavor is not the same thing as something that is a central fabric of somebody's life (i.e. religion). sh*t talking somebody's religion is offensive. I am Catholic and I think Catholic priest molestation jokes are pretty f*cking funny, but I can absolutely understand why others who practice more devoutly are deeply offended. When you sit around and say that the organized religion itself is bad, that extends to those who practice it in a way that saying chocolate ice cream sucks does not extend to those who consume chocolate ice cream.

 

 

 

Yeah, and it also does the opposite as well. So, let's agree to disagree on that one.

I use my knife to cut steak but someone else right now is using one to slit somebody's throat.

 

 

 

Imposing? Is that a defense strategic? Playing victim? There's no doubt that there are flaws in the belief and one doesn't need to hold back on sharing them. Because, to be frank with you, there are a lot of flaws, dude.

With religions? Sure. Everything has flaws. What out there is perfect?

 

 

 


 

 

Alrighty then. If religion doesn't need evidence, then the religious shouldn't expect others to take their religious views seriously, especially when someone warns another about eternal damnation. It only causes a chuckle, because that person KNOWS there's no evidence for it. That's the thing. And that's why there are so many atheists. You wanna have some hope on your shoulder? Cool. Cool. Just don't cry when people deny the teaching of creationism and bring up flaws in the indoctrinated cultivation of your religion.

Who's asking you to take religious values seriously if you don't practice it? I disagree with any religion becoming the law of state. However, even in the American South, I don't see anybody sending agents from the state over to peoples' houses and telling them about eternal damnation. Also, there are significantly more faithful people in the world than there are atheists, and that will remain the same for at least the next 100-200 years according to experts on demographics, with Islam and Christianity in Latin America representing the most growing religions.

 

Edited by Irviding

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Black_Jesus

Sun worship is so

giphy.gif

 

Sun Worship is the only type of religion that makes sense to me. The Sun IS responsible for all life on the planet, So I mean, What else could be more fitting as a "god".

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Abel.

Well I don't think a god that blinds you for worshiping it for too long is one for me.

 

 

 

Carrying on from Irv's post, I don't think people here understand how strongly related religion and culture can be. Religion certainly doesn't need evidence (it's called faith for a reason), and you shouldn't need to believe in what someone else does, but it's common courtesy to respect someone else's custom when you're in their presence. I think it's about mutual respect. I know for a fact that the vast majority of religious people won't harass a typical secular person, so I would expect an atheist to respect the customs of religious people when necessary.

 

 

 

For the record, I'm not sure what I believe, but that shouldn't matter to you anyway.

Edited by Failure

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Alexander

 

Sun worship is so

 

giphy.gif

 

Sun Worship is the only type of religion that makes sense to me. The Sun IS responsible for all life on the planet, So I mean, What else could be more fitting as a "god".

 

 

The aztecs believed in a group of "sun gods" like Tonatiuh, the fifth Sun (if I remember correctly). He, like the other four, demanded human sacrifices, otherwise he would refuse to move through the sky.

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.Smaher.

They're talking about the actual physical sun. Not the phony Mayan myths or whatever you call it.

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Coin

They're talking about the actual physical sun. Not the phony Mayan myths or whatever you call it.

 

How do you think sun deities in polytheistic religions came to be?

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.Smaher.

 

They're talking about the actual physical sun. Not the phony Mayan myths or whatever you call it.

How do you think sun deities in polytheistic religions came to be?

I know exactly what you're saying. But if you looked up above, no one said anything about the ancient deities with personified characteristics. Just the regular sun. I'm not dumb.

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X S

Has anyone ever seen the movie God's Not Dead? I thought I was about to watch a good thought-provoking film, and holy f*ck, no pun intended, but that movie made me cringe. The craziest parts were the Muslim girl who was a closeted Christian and the cameo by the Duck Dynasty guy. I'm so disappointed in Kevin Sorbo.

 

Maybe I should start a thread in the Movies & TV section.

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.Smaher.

Has anyone ever seen the movie God's Not Dead? I thought I was about to watch a good thought-provoking film, and holy f*ck, no pun intended, but that movie made me cringe. The craziest parts were the Muslim girl who was a closeted Christian and the cameo by the Duck Dynasty guy. I'm so disappointed in Kevin Sorbo.

 

Maybe I should start a thread in the Movies & TV section.

They made the stereotypical atheist a person who hates God because something bad happened in his life. And to fix, that they killed him. That movie has the sh*ttiest morals. There's already a trailer for a sequel.

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X S

They made the stereotypical atheist a person who hates God because something bad happened in his life. And to fix, that they killed him. That movie has the sh*ttiest morals. There's already a trailer for a sequel.

 

Yes, stereotypes everywhere. How is it possible to even make a sequel? I mean, sh*t, even Prometheus was a better thought-provoking movie on the subject. At least Peter Weyland actually quoted Nietzsche.

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.Smaher.

 

They made the stereotypical atheist a person who hates God because something bad happened in his life. And to fix, that they killed him. That movie has the sh*ttiest morals. There's already a trailer for a sequel.

Yes, stereotypes everywhere. How is it possible to even make a sequel? I mean, sh*t, even Prometheus was a better thought-provoking movie on the subject. At least Peter Weyland actually quoted Nietzsche.

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid. Edited by .Smaher.

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X S

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid.

 

I hate these types of atheists. Like the ones who make it a point to not capitalize God or insist on using BCE instead of AD. Too edgy for me.

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.Smaher.

 

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid.

I hate these types of atheists. Like the ones who make it a point to not capitalize God or insist on using BCE instead of AD. Too edgy for me.

Does that include the ones who say "X-Mas" instead of "Christmas"?

 

There are also those who announce their atheism without people even asking. Just like most vegans. After being asked what to order, they're like, "I'm an atheist. Anyways, I'll have a salad." They need to find a new hobby that doesn't involve slapping their beliefs in others faces. Most don't even wear fedoras.

Edited by .Smaher.

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Dingdongs

 

 

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid.

I hate these types of atheists. Like the ones who make it a point to not capitalize God or insist on using BCE instead of AD. Too edgy for me.

Does that include the ones who say "X-Mas" instead of "Christmas"?

 

There are also those who announce their atheism without people even asking. Just like most vegans. After being asked what to order, they're like, "I'm an atheist. Anyways, I'll have a salad." They need to find a new hobby that doesn't involve slapping their beliefs in others faces. Most don't even wear fedoras.

 

Had a class the other day where some girl's introduction of herself was the following -

 

"I'm so and so and I'm an athiest-scientist"

 

jimmes rustled/10

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.Smaher.

 

 

 

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid.

I hate these types of atheists. Like the ones who make it a point to not capitalize God or insist on using BCE instead of AD. Too edgy for me.

Does that include the ones who say "X-Mas" instead of "Christmas"?

 

There are also those who announce their atheism without people even asking. Just like most vegans. After being asked what to order, they're like, "I'm an atheist. Anyways, I'll have a salad." They need to find a new hobby that doesn't involve slapping their beliefs in others faces. Most don't even wear fedoras.

 

Had a class the other day where some girl's introduction of herself was the following -

 

"I'm so and so and I'm an athiest-scientist"

 

jimmes rustled/10

Well, its moreso agitating if someone's showing off just so people can think they're dominant. What I think made it different was that she said she was a scientist. But then again, bragging about being a scientist while still being in school still takes a branch off the tree. What difference would it make if you were a Muslim-scientist? Jeez.

 

Actually, no one answer that. It was rhetorical.

Edited by .Smaher.

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Alexander

They're talking about the actual physical sun. Not the phony Mayan myths or whatever you call it.

 

I said aztecs, but you're right, Mayan myths also involved the sun pretty much the same way aztec's myths did (with some different details ofc).

 

 

Had a class the other day where some girl's introduction of herself was the following -

 

"I'm so and so and I'm an athiest-scientist"

 

jimmes rustled/10

 

 

lmao. That sounds like something important to her, to mention it like that.

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sivispacem

By claiming that the content of the Bible is inherently bigoted and further claiming that anybody who follows Christianity must be in full agreement with the Bible, the implication is there.

The thing is, though, the scriptural content is bigoted, but that's simply a reflection of history. That's difficult to dispute. The argument that Christians generally take the bible literally is ridiculous because the overwhelming majority don't but it's not exactly s common train of though, is it? Perhaps one person in this thread do far has expresses it.

 

That isn't the issue. I'm not talking about Muslims who fail to condemn Takfirism. I'm talking about the fact that whatever you want to call the ideology of people who criticize Christianity, they have a soft spot for Islam and won't ever say a single bad word about it, while in the same breathe condemning Christians as all a bunch of hateful bigots.

Really don't actually see this as a thing, certainly not anywhere in this thread anyway. Can't recall ever seeing it anywhere. Stands to reason it's an American thing given the role of the Christian right in recent American political history, but only someone utterly ignorant or deluded would insinuate that's representative of Christianity as a wider phenomenon.

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Abel.

I don't know, Sivis. I think there's credence to what Irv is saying. Criticism of Christianity is seen by many as fine (probably because it has no overt consequences), but these same people would be aghast to say anything against Islam. It's good that such people don't want to make Muslims in the West feel marginalised (Western Muslims have had a hard enough time of it as it is), but this point of view makes it difficult to recognise the deep problems that Islam faces or admit that many acts of extremism are motivated by certain brands of Islam.

Edited by Failure

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Coin

 

I know exactly what you're saying. But if you looked up above, no one said anything about the ancient deities with personified characteristics. Just the regular sun. I'm not dumb.

 

 

The leap between worshiping 'regular sun' and 'ancient deities with personified characteristics' is a minimal one. It becomes more than just 'the regular sun' the moment you start worshiping and regarding it as a God or otherwise sacred personage/object.

 

And to be fair, ancient deities with personified characteristics were mentioned several times before hand, so.

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sivispacem

I don't know, Sivis. I think there's credence to what Irv is saying. Criticism of Christianity is seen by many as fine (probably because it has no overt consequences), but these same people would be aghast to say anything against Islam. It's good that such people don't want to make Muslims in the West feel marginalised (Western Muslims have had a hard enough time of it as it is), but this point of view makes it difficult to recognise the deep problems that Islam faces or admit that many acts of extremism are motivated by certain brands of Islam.

I'd argue that's a case of familiarity breeding contempt though. Most Western citizens will never actually have to personally confront or address the concept of radical Islam. They hear about it on the news but it doesn't really influence most people on any direct level, whereas Christian extremism is directly influencing the US education system, politics, business culture...all of it really.

 

I also don't think I've ever seen anyone simultaneously argue wholesale against Christianity and claim that there's no problem with fundamentalist/extremist Islam. Literally, never.

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mr quick

I don't know, Sivis. I think there's credence to what Irv is saying. Criticism of Christianity is seen by many as fine (probably because it has no overt consequences), but these same people would be aghast to say anything against Islam. It's good that such people don't want to make Muslims in the West feel marginalised (Western Muslims have had a hard enough time of it as it is), but this point of view makes it difficult to recognise the deep problems that Islam faces or admit that many acts of extremism are motivated by certain brands of Islam.

 

The thing is that Islam, radical or not, is currently being openly discussed in most media outlets. Whenever you criticize Christianity or people's actions in the name of it, you get all the typical neckbeard/reddit/fedora sh*t slung at you. Why is that? Nothing should be exempt from criticism, yet when I say that I'm appalled that the government has reinstated Christianity as a focal point of primary school, I feel an immediate hostility towards me.

 

I like having friends so I don't ever bring it up, but they do. Even when asked why I'm no longer a christian I make up some bullsh*t excuse about "answers" and what not, being as vague as possible.

 

 

Its probably gonna have ten more different subplots and another trending hashtag. And don't forget an atheist who hates God because he never got a trike when he was a kid.

 

I hate these types of atheists. Like the ones who make it a point to not capitalize God or insist on using BCE instead of AD. Too edgy for me.

 

 

What the f*ck is this sh*t? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

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Richard Power Colt

What really needs a sequel is the bible.

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.Smaher.

What really needs a sequel is the bible.

Its called the New Testament.

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Alexander

 

What really needs a sequel is the bible.

Its called the New Testament.

 

Isn't the New Testament a book of the bible?

 

 

 

The thing is that Islam, radical or not, is currently being openly discussed in most media outlets. Whenever you criticize Christianity or people's actions in the name of it, you get all the typical neckbeard/reddit/fedora sh*t slung at you.

 

Marwin, you might want to start clarifying that is your personal experience. In my case, I have discussed with christians a lot in the past, and even if their arguments, at the end, are reduced to "is a part of God's plan", I have never recieved sh*t of them. And I'm being honest here. I know you have been in touch with many christians, during your education and now in the church, but they're not an exact representation of the entire world.

Edited by AlexanderS4

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Richard Power Colt

 

What really needs a sequel is the bible.

Its called the New Testament.

There should be a new new testament written in the 21st century.

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.Smaher.

 

 

What really needs a sequel is the bible.

Its called the New Testament.
There should be a new new testament written in the 21st century.It should be about how to drive stick cars and what to avoid on the internet.

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Abel.

 

I don't know, Sivis. I think there's credence to what Irv is saying. Criticism of Christianity is seen by many as fine (probably because it has no overt consequences), but these same people would be aghast to say anything against Islam. It's good that such people don't want to make Muslims in the West feel marginalised (Western Muslims have had a hard enough time of it as it is), but this point of view makes it difficult to recognise the deep problems that Islam faces or admit that many acts of extremism are motivated by certain brands of Islam.

I'd argue that's a case of familiarity breeding contempt though. Most Western citizens will never actually have to personally confront or address the concept of radical Islam. They hear about it on the news but it doesn't really influence most people on any direct level, whereas Christian extremism is directly influencing the US education system, politics, business culture...all of it really.

 

I also don't think I've ever seen anyone simultaneously argue wholesale against Christianity and claim that there's no problem with fundamentalist/extremist Islam. Literally, never.

 

 

Fair points, Sivis. Basically what I was getting at is that there exist people who are quick to criticise Christianity but are scared of getting close to the idea of criticising Islam. Personally I think criticising someone's faith to their face is rude and detrimental to coexistence in a heterogeneous society.

 

 

Then again, it can go both ways sometimes. A friend of mine knows about the threat of radical Islam, but knew virtually nothing about the state of Christian extremism in Africa (LRA, etc), and presumably knows nothing about the very regrettable actions of Christian militias in Lebanon. I think this exemplifies that the media you're exposed to can create a sort of "tunnel vision" effect. Where some people underestimate the threat of Islamic extremism due to apologist material they read on a regular basis, others will blame Muslims wholesale for the actions of those radicals that undermine Islam simply because the gutter press suggests that narrative. Better critical thinking and a more comprehensive modern history syllabus would be helpful to counter both these dodgy narratives.

Edited by Failure

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Aqua97

What is the soul ? What's it made up of ? Or is it even a there ?

 

Do you think we have a spark in all of us ?

 

And on a unrelated subject:

 

Why do people assume God is a man floating around in space ? I know it says in the bible God created man in his own image but what are we truly ? Are we more than just a biological body ?

 

So what do you think ?

 

Also:

 

Persionaly I believe in a omnipresent God. A God that is present everywhere at once.

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