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Dee.

What is your POV on theism and vice versa?

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AmericanNinjaSB

 

 

 

 

Someone hasn't read the old testament. ^^^

Someone didn't understand the old testament.

 

ok definitely time to quote the ol' biblerino

 

  • if you kill an intruder it's only murder if it's after the sun has risen
  • if a thief has nothing he is to be sold himself
  • if you sleep with someone you are obligated to pay for and marry her
  • a troll woman, whatever the f*ck that is, has no right to live
  • if you dishonor the sabbath(such as doing labor) you must die
  • homosexuals must be killed
  • if you marry a woman and her mother all 3 of you must be burned to death
  • if you have sex with an animal you and it must die
  • if you commit incest both of you must be publicly executed
  • you must support local slave businesses and not buy from other settlements
  • there's an explicit guide to how you should price your slaves
  • if you don't seek the lord you are to be killed
  • if you spread false statements about god/gods your mother and father have to stab you to death

I'm literally just page jumping right now. Have you read the old testament? It's redundant, inconsistent drivel with sexual repression, god's ego inflation, and proper slave owner ettiquette as a focal point.

This is hardly relevant to whatever point you want to make, which is what, by the way? That the OT isn't evil? I'm just quoting random sh*t from it to make a point of how stupid it is.

 

 

Also, my question on how you justify supporting gay marriage when your beloved testament literally says that homosexuals have "committed an abomination, their blood is upon them"? Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy you ditched the old gay-hating routine but you can't just pick and choose here.

Yo bro, i think laws like that still exist, js, but yo u really hate God huh? Or religion? Edited by AmericanNinjaSB

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sivispacem

ITT: people sh*t talk Christianity and use people with radical Christian beliefs to paint the entire religion as a bunch of insane lunatics. Sound familiar to discussion on Abrahamic religion?

People don't sh*t-talk Christianity, they sh*t-talk the Christian right, which it basically the public face of Christianity in the US. It's hard to separate the two when it comes to American society, and that's really not the fault of the critics. You should take it up with the christian fascists that seem to permeate every level of government, politics, society and the american psyche.

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Dingdongs

 

ITT: people sh*t talk Christianity and use people with radical Christian beliefs to paint the entire religion as a bunch of insane lunatics. Sound familiar to discussion on Abrahamic religion?

 

ITT: people literally quote the Bible.

 

ITT: people are critical to something which claims to be the answer to everything but has no evidence to support that claim

 

ITT: people criticize homophobia

 

ITT: people criticize sexism

 

It's a religion dude. It doesn't need to have evidence to support its claims, it's a f*cking religion. A religion is not a scientific theory. Being a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew (religions whose texts are homophobic and sexist) in the modern world does not mean that you are automatically a sexist or homophobe. People change and beliefs evolve. Interpretations change.

 

 

ITT: people sh*t talk Christianity and use people with radical Christian beliefs to paint the entire religion as a bunch of insane lunatics. Sound familiar to discussion on Abrahamic religion?

People don't sh*t-talk Christianity, they sh*t-talk the Christian right, which it basically the public face of Christianity in the US. It's hard to separate the two when it comes to American society, and that's really not the fault of the critics. You should take it up with the christian fascists that seem to permeate every level of government, politics, society and the american psyche.

 

It doesn't look like that to me in here. All I see is people piling on Christianity and arguing as if people who go to church twice a year with their family or people who wear a cross necklace are hateful bigots. I'm not exaggerating what I'm reading in this thread. This is literally the exact same dialogue you would see when people are discussing radical Islam. "A religion that supports stonings" (yeah, it's in the Qur'an) "A religion that says to slaughter those who oppose it (in the Qur'an). People in here quoting bible verses and implying that every Christian supports those things en masse, just like is done with Muslims in the West.

 

It really just sounds familiar, is all.

Edited by Irviding

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El Dildo

there are certainly nice and tolerant Christians.

and they may very well even be the majority.

 

it doesn't change the fact that their power structure, social hierarchy, and political capital is all geared towards bigotry. they want to ban books, they want to legislate science and biology curricula, and they openly discriminate against gays and other minorities.

 

you know, there's some nice tolerant people in the Republican party, too.

it doesn't change the fact that their public face and leadership are bigoted assholes with a horribly oppressive agenda.

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mr quick

I did go to a Christian kindergarten and private school for 13 years of my life and have worked for the church of Norway as my main job for 3 years, it's not like I'm making sh*t up.

 

I will grant you Irv that there is a bias and broad, sweeping generalizations being made, some of which may be untrue for some individuals. Again, I refer to my post a couple of pages back. People will use religion as a vehicle of hatred, bigotry, racism, sexism, and homophobia. It's going on right now.

 

It takes away from the reality of life; your actions do not matter, because the almighty god has a plan for you. It doesn't matter if someone dies, you'll see them again anyway. Why bother trying to explain anything when everything is already explained by the Bible?

 

You get what I mean?

 

e: yes, it does need evidence to support its claims if it is to be exempt from mockery and open criticism. It's a work of fiction written by humans and I will criticize it as such.

 

Also, don't get me wrong. I hate Islam and Christianity the same, not the people who believe in it.

Edited by Marwin

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Tyler

it doesn't change the fact that their power structure, social hierarchy, and political capital is all geared towards bigotry.

 

Doesn't stop you guys from supporting capitalism-- why is it any different with this? #justliberalthings #doublethink #ilikemygoodsexploitativebutsecular

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El Dildo

yeah I don't hate people anywhere near as much as I simply hate bad ideas.

the real problem is Dogmatic beliefs in any form.

 

Doesn't stop you guys from supporting capitalism-- why is it any different with this? #justliberalthings #doublethink #ilikemygoodsexploitativebutsecular

 

I'm not sure we support capitalism as much as we don't have any other choice.

to that point I was just born here. I didn't realize there another way of doing things until I was already knee-deep in the sh/t. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do right now with one foot in the hole and one foot already getting deeper...

Edited by El Diablo

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sivispacem

All I see is people piling on Christianity and arguing as if people who go to church twice a year with their family or people who wear a cross necklace are hateful bigots

I don't see anyone "piling on" Christian belief here. I see plenty of criticism of Christian extremism, the same way I see plenty of criticism of Muslim extremism, but I don't see anyone pretending it's actually representative of Christianity as a whole.

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MyName'sJeff

 

 

Someone hasn't read the old testament. ^^^

I guess someone didn't read my post properly. I was nowhere near referring to the old testament, nor the bible as a whole.

 

Actually, I was referring to your post as a whole.

 

You said:

 

 

 

In terms of my religion, it literally does not tell us to force people to think there is a God, in fact, God encouraged us to spread the religion in a peaceful and friendly way and if people don't accept it,

Ironically, spreading religion in a negative way and being negative as a whole is all in your own bible.

 

I'm not talking about the bible. Jesus Christ :/ No pun intended. I'm a Muslim, not a Christian, therefore I was talking about my religion.

Edited by MyName'sJeff

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Raavi

> Capitalism debate is that way.

 

OT: On the issue of Christianity, its interpretation varies greatly from church to church. I was raised Roman Catholic, did the whole go to church on easter, palm sunday christmas etc thing, even was acolyte for a bit. Didn't have a single bad experience in my church. There wasn't any hate preaching, there wasn't any "god will smite you", no anti-contraception bullsh*t, nothing- the underlying tone always was one of positivity, forgiveness, understanding. Hell the Fr. was openly very critical of the vatican, and it was pretty much an open secret that the other pastor was gay. Friend from another parish that was quite literally one neighbourhood over had a polar opposite experience, and had a very conservative pastor who shunned everything from chewing gum in church, girls with "too short' skirts to boys (mind you we're talking 5,6,7 year olds) wearing caps, not even touching on his backwards views he actively incorporated in his sermons . Guess who ended up roaming the halls of the Vatican?

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.Smaher.

 

I'm not talking about the f*cking bible. Jesus Christ :/ No pun intended.

 

I was just telling you where the fallacy went, jeez.

 

Edited by .Smaher.

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Coin

 

OT: On the issue of Christianity, its interpretation varies greatly from church to church. I was raised Roman Catholic, did the whole go to church on easter, palm sunday christmas etc thing, even was acolyte for a bit. Didn't have a single bad experience in my church. There wasn't any hate preaching, there wasn't any "god will smite you", no anti-contraception bullsh*t, nothing- the underlying tone always was one of positivity, forgiveness, understanding. Hell the Fr. was openly very critical of the vatican, and it was pretty much an open secret that the other pastor was gay. Friend from another parish that was quite literally one neighbourhood over had a polar opposite experience, and had a very conservative pastor who shunned everything from chewing gum in church, girls with "too short' skirts to boys (mind you we're talking 5,6,7 year olds) wearing caps, not even touching on his backwards views he actively incorporated in his sermons . Guess who ended up roaming the halls of the Vatican?

 

I'd bet my house it was the conservative pastor.. :p

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MyName'sJeff

@Smaher: Fair enough, but that isn't my position to have knowledge in, I was just clarifying about my judgment on this issue.

Edited by MyName'sJeff

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.Smaher.

@Smaher: Fair enough, but that isn't my position to have knowledge in, I was just clarifying about my judgment on this issue.

I was correcting your logic. You made it seem as if the bible doesn't the promote violence, while it clearly does.

Edited by .Smaher.

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Smith John

All religion is a load of fabricated bollocks if you ask me, but the following video is a fine demonstration of how equally insufferable their protesting opponents are:

 

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El Dildo

all things being equal...

if Christians don't want to be associated with God Hates Fags, then they shouldn't associate all atheists with douchebags like that.

 

ultimately most people fall somewhere in the middle.

obviously.

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.Smaher.

All religion is a load of fabricated bollocks if you ask me, but the following video is a fine demonstration of how equally insufferable their protesting opponents are:

 

What the f*ck is that dude in shorts wearing? He looks like he just woke up from taking shelter on a mountain top after being mugged.

Edited by .Smaher.

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MyName'sJeff

 

@Smaher: Fair enough, but that isn't my position to have knowledge in, I was just clarifying about my judgment on this issue.

I was correcting your logic. You made it seem as if the bible the promote violence, while it clearly does.

 

I didn't understand what you said. Are you saying that I said the bible promotes violence? Where the hell did you get that from? I wasn't even talking about the bible. I don't know anything about the bible because I'm not a Christian nor have I studied it regardless, so why would I sh*t talk for no reason?

Edited by MyName'sJeff

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.Smaher.

 

 

@Smaher: Fair enough, but that isn't my position to have knowledge in, I was just clarifying about my judgment on this issue.

I was correcting your logic. You made it seem as if the bible the promote violence, while it clearly does.

 

I didn't understand what you said. Are you saying that I said the bible promotes violence? Where the hell did you get that from? I wasn't even talking about the bible. I don't know anything about the bible because I'm not a Christian nor have I studied it regardless, so why would I sh*t talk for no reason?

 

I meant "didn't".

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drifter.

I honestly don't give a f*ck. If u are a good human bean than I can vibe with you.

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.Smaher.

I honestly don't give a f*ck. If u are a good human bean than I can vibe with you.

I'm a good human bean. Let's vibe off splits and peas together. Edited by .Smaher.

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Dingdongs

 

All I see is people piling on Christianity and arguing as if people who go to church twice a year with their family or people who wear a cross necklace are hateful bigots

I don't see anyone "piling on" Christian belief here. I see plenty of criticism of Christian extremism, the same way I see plenty of criticism of Muslim extremism, but I don't see anyone pretending it's actually representative of Christianity as a whole.

 

Then you must simply be ignoring the fact that multiple people in this thread have argued that Christianity is inherently hateful and that those who follow it are a bunch of hateful, bigoted people. It's the same thing we see when discussions of Islam come up. I'm not talking about you because you know your stuff, but the people in this thread sh*tting on Christianity are the same type of people who are arguing that there are no problems in Islam. People sit in this thread and pontificate (lol) about the evils of the Christian right, but where are they in the Islam/Arab world/general MENA topics about the ideology of hatred and murder that is propogated by the Saudi state and spread throughout the Gulf and to the greater Muslim world?

 

If you want to take this to PM we probably should because it is getting a bit overly personal and I mean nothing of offense to you, I'm merely trying to point out the hypocrisy seen amongst people who are both the first ones to criticize Christianity, and the first ones to line up and defend, and sometimes ignore the issues in Islam that makes it dangerous in the same ways Christianity can be.

 

 

 

I will grant you Irv that there is a bias and broad, sweeping generalizations being made, some of which may be untrue for some individuals. Again, I refer to my post a couple of pages back. People will use religion as a vehicle of hatred, bigotry, racism, sexism, and homophobia. It's going on right now.

Sure, people do use religion as a vehicle for those things and will continue to do so. They also use it as a vehicle for progress, helping their communities, self betterment, comfort, and many other positive things - moreso than negative things.

 

 

 

It takes away from the reality of life; your actions do not matter, because the almighty god has a plan for you. It doesn't matter if someone dies, you'll see them again anyway. Why bother trying to explain anything when everything is already explained by the Bible?

You get what I mean?

I do, and that's your critique and your opinion on religion. That's fine and I respect your view on it. That's where it ends, though. You don't need to impose that view on people who practice a religion just as much as people who practice a religion have no right to impose their views on you.

 

 

 

e: yes, it does need evidence to support its claims if it is to be exempt from mockery and open criticism. It's a work of fiction written by humans and I will criticize it as such.

 

Also, don't get me wrong. I hate Islam and Christianity the same, not the people who believe in it.

You can mock and criticize it all you want. But the notion that a religion needs evidence to support its claims is just ridiculous. Religious theories and practices are things that are passed through tradition and through written text. People chose to accept those texts and beliefs when they adopt their religion of choice (hopefully by choice). A religion by its very definiton is not something you can quantify with science.

Edited by Irviding

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.Smaher.

Then you must simply be ignoring the fact that multiple people in this thread have argued that Christianity is inherently hateful and that those who follow it are a bunch of hateful, bigoted people. It's the same thing we see when discussions of Islam come up. I'm not talking about you because you know your stuff, but the people in this thread sh*tting on Christianity are the same type of people who are arguing that there are no problems in Islam. People sit in this thread and pontificate (lol) about the evils of the Christian right, but where are they in the Islam/Arab world/general MENA topics about the ideology of hatred and murder that is propogated by the Saudi state and spread throughout the Gulf and to the greater Muslim world?

 

If you want to take this to PM we probably should because it is getting a bit overly personal and I mean nothing of offense to you, I'm merely trying to point out the hypocrisy seen amongst people who are both the first ones to criticize Christianity, and the first ones to line up and defend, and sometimes ignore the issues in Islam that makes it dangerous in the same ways Christianity can be.

 

Quote one post where someone said that people who follow Christianity are bigoted hateful people? And how are we sh*tting on it? When you have dozens of people with different views, it's not always gonna be easy to connect the dots. Also, we can discuss Islam too. I've got a lot of stuff to get off my chest about it.

 

You must not get that most atheists don't hate the religious people, but the religion itself. Would you hate someone if they liked a different ice cream flavor then you? Liked different bands? What if they liked Lincoln Park and you didn't? And vice versa? That's how it works. But on a larger scale. Because religion is a wide topic to discuss upon.

 

 

Sure, people do use religion as a vehicle for those things and will continue to do so. They also use it as a vehicle for progress, helping their communities, self betterment, comfort, and many other positive things - moreso than negative things.

Yeah, and it also does the opposite as well. So, let's agree to disagree on that one.

 

 

 

I do, and that's your critique and your opinion on religion. That's fine and I respect your view on it. That's where it ends, though. You don't need to impose that view on people who practice a religion just as much as people who practice a religion have no right to impose their views on you.

Imposing? Is that a defense strategic? Playing victim? There's no doubt that there are flaws in the belief and one doesn't need to hold back on sharing them. Because, to be frank with you, there are a lot of flaws, dude.

 

 

You can mock and criticize it all you want. But the notion that a religion needs evidence to support its claims is just ridiculous. Religious theories and practices are things that are passed through tradition and through written text. People chose to accept those texts and beliefs when they adopt their religion of choice (hopefully by choice). A religion by its very definiton is not something you can quantify with science.

Alrighty then. If religion doesn't need evidence, then the religious shouldn't expect others to take their religious views seriously, especially when someone warns another about eternal damnation. It only causes a chuckle, because that person KNOWS there's no evidence for it. That's the thing. And that's why there are so many atheists. You wanna have some hope on your shoulder? Cool. Cool. Just don't cry when people deny the teaching of creationism and bring up flaws in the indoctrinated cultivation of your religion.

Edited by .Smaher.

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Skeever

It's not understandable on their part. I don't want to vote for someone who claims they know what the universe is all about, and what that is is some deity described in books written the in war-ridden middle east some 3000 years ago. They have the burden of proof, which is still missing. You'd think that in the 2-3000 years of something being completely true, there would be at least a shred of evidence in support of its most outlandish claims.

Likewise, I don't want to vote for someone who claims they have religion all figured out, even though they are unable to prove that a God doesn't exist. It's understandable for both of us to not want to vote for someone whose opinions conflict with our own.

 

On the topic of homosexuality, how can you justify your own support for same-sex marriage? Open question to any Christian or Jew in here.

The Bible's well over 2000 years old; times have changed, as have our opinions. We aren't as bigoted as the people back then were.

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DEALUX

 

 

All I see is people piling on Christianity and arguing as if people who go to church twice a year with their family or people who wear a cross necklace are hateful bigots

I don't see anyone "piling on" Christian belief here. I see plenty of criticism of Christian extremism, the same way I see plenty of criticism of Muslim extremism, but I don't see anyone pretending it's actually representative of Christianity as a whole.

 

Then you must simply be ignoring the fact that multiple people in this thread have argued that Christianity is inherently hateful and that those who follow it are a bunch of hateful, bigoted people.

 

Christianity doesn't have an inherent character since people interpret it in different ways. We should talk about specific beliefs that are commonly found within Christianity, like the belief that nonbelievers will go to hell after death. Doesn't that sound hateful? These types of hateful beliefs are not uncommon among Christians. There is actually nothing extreme about them. Same with my abortion example and the people who would not vote for an atheist. I actually have some polls on these two things.

 

If you are atheist you are the least likely to get votes from religious people (none of the other minorities are as distrusted as atheists): http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx

Abortion and stem cell research are also opposed by a lot of people: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/08/15/abortion-viewed-in-moral-terms/

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Clem Fandango

 

Sadly that's the limitation of being but one man.

You're not, though. I know this is kind of tangent to the topic, but it's ticking me off that these degenerates are using our advances and our technology to push their hateful agendas. This is covering the range from run of the mill internet bigots and zealots to frigin' ISIS. Individuals that work to undermine the liberal environment necessary for technological and social progress should be denied its advances.

 

 

This applies to people with atrocious political beliefs a million times over before it applies to the bulk of religious people. It's hard not to giggle at you talking about yourself as if you represent 'the enlightened' when you buy into every piece of American bullsh*t I've ever heard.

 

 

 

nothing in this world happens without highly educated professionals involved at some stage. And I'd like to think that among these, enlightened majority is a reality.

I hear deeply insightful things from homeless people on the street. People at university, not so much.

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Clem Fandango

On the topic of homosexuality, how can you justify your own support for same-sex marriage? Open question to any Christian or Jew in here.

I'm not religious but religious people generally tell me that one verse in one translation of the bible is meaningless to them, as are the ramblings of an old Italian Bishop they've never heard of. A lot of Christians in particular consider homophobia to be a massive contradiction of their religious beliefs

 

Believe it or not there are myriad intelligent religious people who, when they ask the church a question, will accept or reject the answer depending on how satisfying it is. Religious institutions have no answer when people put their hand up and ask why God hates fags.

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sivispacem

Then you must simply be ignoring the fact that multiple people in this thread have argued that Christianity is inherently hateful and that those who follow it are a bunch of hateful, bigoted people.

Sorry if I'm being a bit dim, but where? I've seen criticisms of particular organised churches of Christianity, criticism of the content of the bible, but can't see anyone claiming that all Christians are hateful bigots.

 

People sit in this thread and pontificate (lol) about the evils of the Christian right, but where are they in the Islam/Arab world/general MENA topics about the ideology of hatred and murder that is propogated by the Saudi state and spread throughout the Gulf and to the greater Muslim world?

I don't expect people to have coherent arguments about these things because the majority of them aren't really exposed to them. They're ignorant, which goes some way to explaining why they don't have similar specific critiques. A lack of explicit condemnation shouldn't be confused for tacit agreement.

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mr quick

 

It's not understandable on their part. I don't want to vote for someone who claims they know what the universe is all about, and what that is is some deity described in books written the in war-ridden middle east some 3000 years ago. They have the burden of proof, which is still missing. You'd think that in the 2-3000 years of something being completely true, there would be at least a shred of evidence in support of its most outlandish claims.

Likewise, I don't want to vote for someone who claims they have religion all figured out, even though they are unable to prove that a God doesn't exist. It's understandable for both of us to not want to vote for someone whose opinions conflict with our own.

 

Again, no. One is skeptic to the absurd dogmas to which the other adheres. Saying that a god(as described in the Bible) is unlikely is rational, whereas saying that there is indeed one as described in the Bible* is some bizzare metaphysical sh*t, and is also part of a religion which embraces denialism when faced with evidence condradicting its doctrine.

 

*by the way, how come people pick and choose? You pick that "maybe homosexuals don't have to die even though god said I should kill them", isn't that going against the will of God, punishable also by death?(see: the story of Onan)

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Clem Fandango

*by the way, how come people pick and choose? You pick that "maybe homosexuals don't have to die even though god said I should kill them", isn't that going against the will of God, punishable also by death?(see: the story of Onan)

 

Because religious people don't just literally interpret scripture and apply it to their lives?

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